|
I'm absolutely down with designing cool spaceships and figuring out what they're actually for later. Also, tugboats are cool.
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2023 03:18
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
MikeJF posted:I guess sci-fi writers just can't help themselves when it comes to freighters that are secretly super cool and high-power engines for our heroes to ride about in but then they have to figure out a reason why and just go with 'oh it was a tug'. To add another franchise, the Nostromo from Alien was very definitely a freight hauler without any pretense of being a hot rod, and seemed reasonably well designed for the task, so it’s not like sci-fi writers are incapable of making legit freighter designs.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2023 17:00
|
|
|
I also like designing a flashy ship and then figuring out what it does based on what you see. On the other hand, I like how Star Wars recycles a lot of bits and pieces and I wish they did more to show off how the rebellion co-opted the Y-Wing components rather than just shoving Y-Wings down our throats starting with Rebels (maybe that's just my perception...) I get the connection that Y-Wings are special because they're holdovers from the Clone Wars. But I think Star Wars big brains once again forgot that rarity makes something special. It seems like someone who got to start deciding things in the last decade is just a big Y-Wing fan kind of like we started to see a lot of the band Rush once fans of Rush were in position to make movies and documentaries. I would have put the focus on the A-Wing since it's the guerrilla warfare fighter (hit hard and then run away) but that's my head-canon. In any case, A-Wing supremacy. tadashi fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 21, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2023 17:39
|
|
|
tadashi posted:I also like designing a flashy ship and then figuring out what it does based on what you see. That's one pro for a Y-Wing or something similar if you are putting out a story or a show or whatever from a production standpoint regarding reception. Newly designed ships get mixed reviews, some because they are quickly beloved, others heavily negatively received, but it's more of a gamble. Individual opinions and details might vary a little, but for anyone who cares enough to know a little about Star Wars ships, if you throw a Y-Wing (or one of the other classic fighters, or at least fairly traditional ones) you aren't going to get much gruff over them unless it's doing something unusual for what it is or is somewhere way out of place without an explanation. If I put out a cooler of beer at a party for a bunch of different people who's tastes I'm not familiar with, I'm probably way safer and will get less complaints filling it up with Bud Light or something similar (Y-Wings) than whatever craft beer flavor of the week I've been drinking because the old tried and true is more universally enjoyed and easily recognizable by the masses. Sure, someone is always going to complain, but while there are a lot of cool ships (and beers) out there, I do like a good old-fashioned familiar Y-Wing. I think a portion of the more on-track discussion from pages ago had that same general sentiment. (Not that I mind the derails at all, they are fun, this has sort of been the "Star Wars ship" thread lately.)
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2023 21:28
|
|
|
I'd like to see some larger starfighters. The Y-Wing in Rise of Poo Water was tiny and Star Wars fighters are generally pretty small. Some jet fighters today are enormous while Star Wars fighter craft are rarely larger than an X-Wing, which itself is shorter than an F16.
|
|
#
?
Feb 21, 2023 21:35
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:I'd like to see some larger starfighters. The Y-Wing in Rise of Poo Water was tiny and Star Wars fighters are generally pretty small. Some jet fighters today are enormous while Star Wars fighter craft are rarely larger than an X-Wing, which itself is shorter than an F16. EC Henry upsized the Y-wing when reimagining it for the sequel-era. I thought it came out well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g9YfO55n1g Assuming it would be at least a little modular, I can easily see a missile bay module for a bomber-type mission profile. Really it could become a real workhorse - modules for recon, SAR and casevac, CAS, assault, all kinds of fun stuff. Lemniscate Blue fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Feb 22, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2023 02:52
|
|
|
tadashi posted:On the other hand, I like how Star Wars recycles a lot of bits and pieces and I wish they did more to show off how the rebellion co-opted the Y-Wing components rather than just shoving Y-Wings down our throats starting with Rebels (maybe that's just my perception...) If I recall, with Rebels they wanted to show how different cells had access to different things, and the newer, shinier stuff just wasn't available around Lothal.
|
|
#
?
Feb 22, 2023 05:19
|
|
|
Fighters do occasionally show up in Star Trek, it suddenly comes to mind, though rarely both for concept and budget reasons. (You see some skirmishing fighters in Sacrifice of Angels) Reminded of the episode where Kira unearths an old Bajoran Resistance fighter, which is explicitly a slapped-together jury-rigged mess that was already poo poo when it was new, but it was the best that they had at the time.Arc Hammer posted:I'd like to see some larger starfighters. The Y-Wing in Rise of Poo Water was tiny and Star Wars fighters are generally pretty small. Some jet fighters today are enormous while Star Wars fighter craft are rarely larger than an X-Wing, which itself is shorter than an F16. Well kinda missing the point there of the design philosophy and inspiration from World War aircraft. Though funny thing is probably the closest thing to that is... the Millennium Falcon, effectively.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 09:12
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Fighters do occasionally show up in Star Trek, it suddenly comes to mind, though rarely both for concept and budget reasons. (You see some skirmishing fighters in Sacrifice of Angels) Reminded of the episode where Kira unearths an old Bajoran Resistance fighter, which is explicitly a slapped-together jury-rigged mess that was already poo poo when it was new, but it was the best that they had at the time. Fighters usually show up as things that are usually used to harrass freighters or convoys or make ambushes, or as police ships. The only time we ever see them deployed in a capital ship battle is Sacrifice of Angels and I think one other episode? It's pretty generally accepted that the power/scale/survivability stats just don't work out well for fighters in the Trek universe and they're just gonna get blown away easily by big ships as an afterthought. It seems like, given the tech of the Trek universe, if you want to have a small-scale nigh-suicidal mass-produced fighter ship that makes sense to participate in proper battles, the smallest you'll get is the Klingon bird-of-prey, which is three decks high and has a crew of a dozen or two. The Federation isn't comfortable being that suicidal, so they scale down to the Defiant instead, which is about twice the size of a BoP and a lot more durable. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Feb 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 09:36
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Well kinda missing the point there of the design philosophy and inspiration from World War aircraft. Though funny thing is probably the closest thing to that is... the Millennium Falcon, effectively. That just discounts all the big twin engine heavy fighters and bombers that got modified to be night fighters though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 14:51
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:If I recall, with Rebels they wanted to show how different cells had access to different things, and the newer, shinier stuff just wasn't available around Lothal. I totally forgot that, when Phoenix squad came around, they were using A-Wings. I really liked how they retconned U-Wings into ROTJ by basically saying "You just didn't see them where the main characters landed..."
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 15:28
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:That just discounts all the big twin engine heavy fighters and bombers that got modified to be night fighters though. Closest thing to that is probably the Muurian transport in TIE Fighter. Faster than a Y-Wing with an armament like an assault transport. I remember them being a huge pain in the rear end.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:Fighters usually show up as things that are usually used to harrass freighters or convoys or make ambushes, or as police ships. The only time we ever see them deployed in a capital ship battle is Sacrifice of Angels and I think one other episode? It's pretty generally accepted that the power/scale/survivability stats just don't work out well for fighters in the Trek universe and they're just gonna get blown away easily by big ships as an afterthought. It seems like, given the tech of the Trek universe, if you want to have a small-scale nigh-suicidal mass-produced fighter ship that makes sense to participate in proper battles, the smallest you'll get is the Klingon bird-of-prey, which is three decks high and has a crew of a dozen or two. Wasn't red squad in TNG ostensibly fighters? I think they just called them the academy flight team, though, like it's some kind of intramural. And then there's the Dominion fighter which is like a Defiant size. We see Nausicaan fighters in Enterprise, but they're like Milennium Falcon size. Shinzon had a hangar full of little fighters he could have used in the final battle but I guess he thought he didn't need them. I think there's a bunch of fighters in Discovery but no thank you
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 18:57
|
|
|
They could retcon the U-Wing into the space battle, but the whole plot about getting to the moon Endor was that they could only land that one Imperial shuttle. I have mixed feelings about the A-Wings in Rebels. On the one hand, I get how they don't want to overuse the "hero" X-Wings, and it makes Phoenix Squadron extra scrappy to only have little ships without missiles. On the other hand, I like the idea that the Rebel fleet's composition developed and changed over time, and as such the B-Wings and A-Wings at Endor would be like the result of changing technology and increased manufacturing, just like how the fact that the Rebels could mobilize an entire fleet at once to be ready for a straight-out conventional battle as a sign of changing times. But also there's not much way they could've fit ships much bigger than an A-Wing into Phoenix Home.  Mulaney Power Move posted:Wasn't red squad in TNG ostensibly fighters? I think they just called them the academy flight team, though, like it's some kind of intramural. That was Nova Squadron, and they were basically just aerobatics, showing off their fancy flying with no apparent utilitarian use in normal Starfleet operations. Red Squad was a group of cadets that were used as pawns to stage a terrorist attack as part of a Federation coup attempt by another bad admiral in DS9. Also Nog really liked them and wanted to join. SlothfulCobra fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Feb 23, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 18:57
|
|
|
And then they got the USS Valiant blown up thanks to a massive ego trip.
|
|
#
?
Feb 23, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:The Federation isn't comfortable being that suicidal, so they scale down to the Defiant instead, which is about twice the size of a BoP and a lot more durable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2023 07:24
|
|
|
Defiants, Bird of Prey and Jem'Hadar bugships all definitely use small size and agility as defence, we see them dodging all the time. Defiant and the bugships especially. They can't swerve enough to dodge all the hits, but they can swerve enough to avoid a decent amount of them and then the ship can tank the rest. (Which is why fighters don't really work in Trek: even if they can dodge a lot of shots they'll still take one pretty quickly, and one shot from a capital ship is enough to destroy a fighter-scale ship. Sometimes they can even just go lower-power rapid-fire shots, although to be fair those were lovely.) Defiant was explicitly built to fight the Borg, who are able to get through shields very easily and have ship-stopping tractor beams, so it was intended to compensate for those things with armour (unlike most Fed ships, since usually shields are an order of magnitude more effective than any armour technology can be) and being able to dodge. Which is why it works against the Dominion - initially, they're able to ignore Federation shields. Its dodging is shown often, particularly in First Contact when we see it swerving around the tractor beams for a while before finally being caught, or Sacrifice of angels, look at the way the bugships are having trouble hitting it as it swerves around. It's much more fighter-like in behaviour than the regular whale capital ships. It is a very compact ship even with the 'take all the luxuries out', it's 128m long, four and a half decks high, and has 50 crew. It's what we'd call a corvette. (In Star Trek she's classed as an 'escort', although the show acknowledges that that's a bit of doublespeak, since she's a warship but Starfleet doesn't officially build pure warships) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 08:13 on Feb 24, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2023 07:51
|
|
|
Foxfire_ posted:I think the Defiant is supposed to be what you get from taking a normal Federation ship then stripping out the botanical gardens, jazz recital space, dolphin pool, and kindergarteners, but leaving the same engines, shields, and weapons as a big ship. Nobody in Star Trek ever really has trouble hitting another ship, 'small, fast, and agile' isn't really a defense Pretty much, and it's actually a big element for most of the series that the Defiant is an unfinished prototype that takes a long time and a lot of trial and error- and O'Brien replacing and reworking almost everything- to get it actually working like it's supposed to, and to stop shaking itself apart because of how much power is packed into that much smaller frame, presumably presenting design challenges unfamiliar to Starfleet. It's even a point in the Valiant episode that the crew are struggling to get the ship of the same class as the Defiant to perform properly until Nog, who's worked under O'Brien, is able to do all the same things. There's a reason that a Vorta only slightly jokingly praises Starfleet engineers as being practically magical. I think that the Federation only rarely uses fighters is probably also a result of the same attitudes and discomfort with a vessel whose only real purpose is as a warship. That said, as above speed and agility are definitely assets in Star Trek fleet combat used right- the Defiant as a result of being fast AND powerful is basically able to act as a destroyer which can punch through holes in enemy lines and unleash shitloads of proton torpedoes. It can take it and dish it out enough to punch well above its weight, which is exactly the kind of firepower you need to take on the Borg. (Just happens to be useful at taking on lots of other foes too) Presumably the tradeoff is that it lacks the flexibility of capital ships like the Enterprise and similar. Kinda funny how later Trek plays with the tradeoffs of armour vs shields, and for a dedicated warship like the Defiant it makes sense to hedge your bets and have both, but for most of the Federation's history they've had shields which make physical armour a waste of time and resources. In the Enterprise era they didn't, so ships had actual armour, and like in Star Trek Beyond that sometimes comes in handy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 24, 2023 12:40
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:I have mixed feelings about the A-Wings in Rebels. On the one hand, I get how they don't want to overuse the "hero" X-Wings, and it makes Phoenix Squadron extra scrappy to only have little ships without missiles. dont A-wings have concussion missiles?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 02:23
|
|
|
They're way better in Battlefront 2 2005 The Good Edition because A-Wings fire all of their concussion missiles off in a single burst while the Tie Interceptor fires off its missiles in a rolling volley that is easier to dodge.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 02:53
|
|
|
Raluek posted:dont A-wings have concussion missiles? According to games, but no movies or TV shows.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 08:15
|
|
|
They have the superior proton rockets (prockets) which is 5 dice out their bullseye arc.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 18:58
|
|
|
It might just be that Phoenix Squadron doesn't have the logistics for missiles. There was a whole episode where they got pretty desperate about getting just a few proton bombs. But I guess generally there's a whole thing where most of the games denote a difference between bombs, torpedoes, and missiles. Missiles are smaller and faster for fighter to fighter combat, torpedoes are for hitting bigger ships, and then bombs are also for bigger targets but don't have any onboard guided systems.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 20:18
|
|
|
Madurai posted:According to games, but no movies or TV shows. Have concussion missiles ever been referenced outside of the games, at all?
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2023 22:59
|
|
|
The games do often flat out make up a bunch of stuff to flesh out gameplay options, see again Star Trek.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 00:29
|
|
|
Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Have concussion missiles ever been referenced outside of the games, at all? Millennium Falcon had them, name-dropped specifically, in ROTJ. Republic V-19 Torrents had missiles (not name-checked) in the Clone Wars cartoon shorts.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 00:54
|
|
|
Madurai posted:Millennium Falcon had them, name-dropped specifically, in ROTJ. Republic V-19 Torrents had missiles (not name-checked) in the Clone Wars cartoon shorts. when do they ever say concussion missiles in ROTJ?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 05:05
|
|
|
banned from Starbucks posted:when do they ever say concussion missiles in ROTJ? On the final run in DS2's reactor. Lando: "All right, Wedge. Go for the power regulator on the north tower. I'm carrying concussion missiles – they should penetrate."
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 06:47
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:The games do often flat out make up a bunch of stuff to flesh out gameplay options, see again Star Trek. To be fair though Star Trek is very explicit about 'if it's not on-screen it doesn't and will never count', while Star Wars at least tries to have the secondary stuff count, the removal of the old EU notwithstanding. Sometimes things in trek books or games will be mined for on-screen content, but until they're shown, not canon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 07:10
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:To be fair though Star Trek is very explicit about 'if it's not on-screen it doesn't and will never count', while Star Wars at least tries to have the secondary stuff count, the removal of the old EU notwithstanding. Sometimes things in trek books or games will be mined for on-screen content, but until they're shown, not canon. Oh yes, and a very smart way to do it. A lot of Star Trek EU stuff gets very silly not even counting William Shatner's own books, or How Much For Just The Planet. Funny thing, apparently while Star Wars EU had (post-Disney stuff is apparently better about this) a notorious habit of extrapolating from a species or culture's appearance in a movie being an exactly representative member of them all; all Corellians are loveable reckless rogues, all Twi'Lek ladies are dancing slaves and all the men are in the mafia, etc etc, Star Trek EU apparently does the exact opposite where every representative of a species is assumed to be a bold iconoclast doing the opposite of their dominant culture. Of course, one of the fun things about sprawling franchises is that you end up with a rich body of work that you can mine for ideas at your leisure, and side material can be used as testbeds to see what works and what doesn't. If you bother to actually put in the effort with your main material anyway.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 08:35
|
|
|
Ghost Leviathan posted:Of course, one of the fun things about sprawling franchises is that you end up with a rich body of work that you can mine for ideas at your leisure, And 3D assets! (As I'm sure you're aware, Picard has been saving time and money by grabbing 3D models from Star Trek Online for background ships. And Prodigy acquired a bunch of 3D models for their fleet stuff from the company that made Trek collectable models)
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 08:46
|
|
|
Madurai posted:On the final run in DS2's reactor. Lando: "All right, Wedge. Go for the power regulator on the north tower. I'm carrying concussion missiles – they should penetrate." what version of the movie is this?
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 09:21
|
|
|
From what I can see I believe that line existed only in the 1997 version, but I can't say for certain.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 10:20
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:From what I can see I believe that line existed only in the 1997 version, but I can't say for certain. If it's the 1997 version then it was a theater exclusive because I've watched the special editions so many times and I have never heard that line on the VHS release. I think it's in the screenplay but it was edited out of the film itself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 14:53
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:If it's the 1997 version then it was a theater exclusive because I've watched the special editions so many times and I have never heard that line on the VHS release.  yeah I never recall that line either
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 14:55
|
|
|
I'm surprised to find out the concussion missles on the Falcon thing is canon. https://www.starwars.com/databank/millennium-falcon quote:Lando fired concussion missiles into the Death Star’s main reactor and raced for the surface, escaping just as the station exploded. The lowly freighter, once derided as a piece of junk, had destroyed the Empire’s greatest weapon.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 15:21
|
|
|
Yeah, the shots come from between the mandibles, not either of the turrets. Though they still make bwap bwap blaster noises.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 17:03
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:From what I can see I believe that line existed only in the 1997 version, but I can't say for certain. It was in the 1983 version, too.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
I've only ever heard: "All right, Wdge, go for the power regulator on the north tower." "Copy Gold Leader. I'm already on my way out." I totally believe that it's in the screenplay but I have never heard it on the 94 VHS, the 97 Special Edition, the Blu Rays or the Disney Plus version.
|
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 19:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 8, 2024 20:56 |
|
|
Maybe it's added dialog in some video game that people are misremembering as being from the movie? I've seen every version of RotJ put out except for the Laserdisc so unless it's on that format specifically I don't think it's real. Edit: BOUNTY TIME "Bounty Hunters, we don't need their scum." Ok so since RotJ is my fav Star War and the idea of there being a version out there that I don't know about and have never seen is picking away at my nerd goon brain I'll put a bounty out there... If you can find the version with that dialog added (filmed not a script) and show it to me I'll buy you a name change or plat or whatever forum upgrade you want. banned from Starbucks fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Feb 28, 2023 |
|
#
?
Feb 28, 2023 20:01
|
|