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General Battuta posted:One thing that interests me about Daniel Abraham as a writer is that he's both smart and consciously commercial - his first fantasy series was more high-falutin' and literary but when it did badly he made a choice to try to write to market. So whenever I'm irritated by a decision in these books I always wonder if Abraham's irritated too but just playing it the way he thinks will sell. I also don't remember much backstory, but I think there were a few small hints in early books. Not sure how everyone feels about spoilers, but at one point someone asks if anyone has bathed an infant and Naomi says she has. Amos told Naomi a bit about his childhood in book 2, I think. When reviewing information about the Roci crew, Avasarala observes that Alex has a kid he doesn't know about, which seems to remain true for the rest of the series so far, since Kit comes from his later marriage to Giselle. But for the most part, the characterization I remember from early books are smaller things like those. I'll have to look up Abraham's first series based on your description, it sounds interesting.
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Mar 19, 2020 18:37
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This thread is great, thank you for doing this!
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Apr 1, 2020 14:24
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Chapter Twenty-One – Holden I've seen a few references in posts to Amos as asexual, which wasn't my reading from the books. Can I ask, was this a show thing? In my recollection of the books, there was very little explicit mention of Amos's sex life until Babylon's Ashes, when (spoiler for the intro to Chapter 35 of Babylon's Ashes): Babylon's Ashes, Chapter 35 posted:Sex was one of those things where the way it was supposed to work and the way it worked for him didn't always match up real well. He knew all the stuff about love and affection, and that just seemed like making poo poo up. He understood making poo poo up. He also understood how people talked about, and he could talk about it that way, just to fit in. I suppose that could be read as cuddling only, but it seems more likely to me based on those paragraphs that Amos simply keeps his libido leashed up except for infrequent brothel visits. If I missed something in another book (or that one), please let me know!
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Apr 7, 2020 14:24
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:From memory, I think it's Book 2 (or 5) where it's mentioned in passing that Amos had himself chemically castrated as a consequence of the trauma of his upbringing. At the same time, it might just be a consequence of my own personality. As an asexual, my own view on my sex drive is essentially those first two paragraphs. Book 2 definitely mentions a vasectomy. Caliban's War, Chapter 45 posted:Amos Burton. ... Took an elective vasectomy the day he was legally old enough to do so.
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Apr 7, 2020 22:29
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They really named the hotel the Blue Falcon? Amazing.
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Apr 8, 2020 14:06
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:What's the reference to? Blue Falcon is a military euphemism. It means "buddy-fucker".
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Apr 8, 2020 14:16
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That's an interesting discussion. I think there was some discussion that in-universe, PDCs are a short range weapon due to the ease of dodging relatively slow projectiles. If I recall correctly, in a battle in a later book (PDC spoilers), a ship is disabled in combat by a burst of PDC fire. That scene was one I really enjoyed in that book, so I'll can it until the thread gets there.
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Apr 22, 2020 16:59
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:
Milkfred E. Moore and Omi (and anyone else) what do you think? Do the books try to justify Holden's role as captain? Do they succeed?
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Apr 23, 2020 14:34
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I won't say Dresden is an interesting character because he's not. I think the TV series adaptation virtually turns him inside out, for better or worse. Book Dresden makes me think of one of the guys from Mad Men. Slick, confident, scummy. A company man. Omi sums him up as a "sleazy executive." The kind of guy who thinks he has every i dotted and t crossed and, a lot of the time, he probably does. Book Dresden feels a bit like a caricature at points and TV Dresden is... different. I'm interested to see what you all think when you and Omi get to those later points. I certainly can't argue with the description. I definitely can't argue against the use of broad brushes throughout the series, although I think they get finer as the series continues. I read these villains as sort-of funhouse Marlovian villians: their reach barely exceeds their grasp, their callous villainy can be exciting to watch, but the authors have mostly not made them sympathetic. I wonder if that was on purpose, if the authors wanted to avoid readers saying "This Dresden guy has it figured out," the way some viewers famously did for Rick from Rick and Morty. But like you all have said, Leviathan Wakes is a crude first effort and I think that could have been accidental. This particular dislike of yours is my favorite thing about the series: throughout the series, there is a continuum of callousness toward other humans (we can call it sociopathy but I don't want to conflate character traits with a real condition). Each plotline has characters stake out different visions of callousness and world order (e.g. we have Amos, who submits to the party paladin most of the time, unlike the antagonists who try to dominate), and each plot line ends in a defeat of the antagonist's vision by the Rocinante crew's vision, which insists on autonomy for people and rejects domination. It feels like a southwestern-US 'you leave me alone, I'll leave you alone' libertarianism versus other ideologies. I'm making it sound flat, and sometimes it is, but I appreciate when this conflict is complicated by characters making other decisions based on who they are, such as (books 5/6 spoilers) Marco gradually abandoning his fig leaf of rebellion to be a stalker ex-boyfriend. At the beginning it seems all about the rebellion, at the end it's all about the stalking. When does that change? Or did it not change, was the truth simply revealed? I'm a sucker for people making decisions based on who they are, and it's no surprise books 5 and 6 are my favorites in the series. I'm sure there will be plenty of other discussion about series villains, and I see where people are coming from. Sympathetic villains are awesome, and these books don't really have them. But I think there's plenty of room for non-sympathetic villains as well. Not every antagonist needs to be Lucifer from Paradise Lost. Iago was pretty good too. Milkfred E. Moore posted:I'm paraphrasing here. Bible references are common enough in American media, but since I can only recall a few explicitly Christian characters(Anna and presumably her family, the other preachers in Abaddon's gate, the never-seen Mormons Fred steals a giant ship from), I wonder if this reference would be more obscure to in-universe characters than it is to the readers. On the other hand, even the best of the novels use a fairly broad brush, so I think maybe I'm reading that into the text. On the other, other hand, this on-the-nose moment indicates what is to come throughout the series. It is essentially the bargain posed by each of the antagonists you mentioned. Whether it's (book 4) Murtry offering to not-kill people in return for abject submission, (books 5/6)Marco offering system domination in return for instant acceptance of his constantly changing goals, and submission to his authority (see his reaction to Pa's rebellion), (book 7) Singh offering the Murtry deal, but this time with a flag instead of a corporation, (book 8)Duarte offering what looks like competent authoritarianism at first, in return for... abject submission. Coming back to personal characteristics complicating this political argument, I really, really like that he thinks he has it figured out, and fails to recognize that the killer aliens are already negotiating with humanity by eating ships when certain conditions are met. This results in the collapse of his empire as he mis-negotiates, and it's mirrored by him being traumatized into not recognizing his daughter, soon after which she decides to abandon him and flees. I like parallel structure as much as the next person, so I'm willing to look past the fact that Dresden is a caricature.
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Apr 28, 2020 14:48
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Khizan posted:I love this part with Miller because he's doing exactly what Holden does, and Holden hates it. That's an excellent point and fun to think about. Take immediate action based on what you think is right! No, not like that.
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May 1, 2020 21:19
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Come to think of it, though... Naomi tells Holden in Caliban's War that she doesn't want children, from what I remember. I wonder if the sperm/egg thing is, say, a part or perk of working for Pur'n'Kleen, or if it's a 'just in case' from Naomi or just something everyone does or what. I remember the same thing about Naomi in CW. I suspect this may be another instance where they didn't decide on Naomi's backstory until later. Caliban's War is also where we start getting hints of more backstory, like Alex's kid he doesn't know about or Amos's childhood in Baltimore or Naomi having bathed a child in a sink before, which was a small hint I appreciate in hindsight.
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May 7, 2020 14:19
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Although I cooled on the series in its final books, by far one of my favorite parts was this plot where Duarte decides to 'negotiate' with the aliens that killed the protomolecule builders by deliberately blowing past the limits on the stargates. I love that he decides he's going to initiate this negotiation (because he has all the agency, definitely not the gods who destroyed the demigods who failed to snuff out earth in its cradle) and never seems to realize that the aliens are already communicating in this style by disappearing ships that ignore the limits. I wish more had been done with this strand of the plot.
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Dec 4, 2023 21:37
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