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Another thing worth noting is that the Chaingun has a bit of an exploit that actually turns it into arguably the best sniping weapon in the game: The shot dispersal only starts at the third bullet, the first two always hit exactly the center of the screen (i.e. the crosshair, if you're using a sourceport that adds one). Since the Chaingun always fires a minimum of two bullets anyway, you can just tap the fire button instead of holding it down and you have pretty much eliminated the shot dispersal (at the cost of slightly lower overall firing speed). edit: Update on previous page. ThornBrain posted:
edit 2: Whoops, I just noticed that anilEhilated already explained the Chaingun accuracy thing back on the first page. anilEhilated posted:Anyway, since ranged combat was mentioned: while it is true your shotgun doubles as your sniper rifle, there is one weapon that's better at it and that is the chaingun. Thing is, while it does have a bullet scatter, that spread applies only from the second shot onwards: the first two bullets (one click/press) fired will always hit the crosshair/middle of the screen. If you keep tapping Fire instead of holding the button down, you get a gatling sniper rifle. Carpator Diei fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 00:13
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The Doom engine's height quirks are more apparent in Heretic, Raven Software's fantasy spinoff using the same engine. Doom itself goes for the Aliens vibe of dark corridors and SF space installations, but Heretic tries mildly realistic medieval walled towns and cities with a lot of monsters on roofs and battlements - and that's where the 2D weirdness very much starts to show through.
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Apr 11, 2020 00:15
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This is unfortunately the point where a lot of Doom’s shortcomings as a game come in no small part due to real life goings on. If I recall the story, over at id there was infighting between Johns Romero and Carmack and Tom Hall over what to do after Doom before Shores of Hell and Inferno were finished, with Tom Hall wanting to go back to id’s roots like Commander Keen and the two Johns wanting to follow up on Doom, and eventually they pulled rank and had Tom Hall fired, and brought in Sandy Petersen to pick up Tom Hall’s slack mere weeks before the game was finished. Which is to say, Sandy Petersen has a lot of input in the upcoming maps for better or worse, and Fortress of Mystery is the first unfortunate victim of this shift.
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Apr 11, 2020 00:16
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Tom Hall wanted a much more story-led Doom, with levels resembling realistic environments, NPC allies, and an intriguing opening where the player is off-duty with his buddies playing poker TNG-style when the demonic invasion begins. Ironically, pretty much exactly what came out as Doom 3 and 2016.
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Apr 11, 2020 01:12
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Loxbourne posted:Tom Hall wanted a much more story-led Doom, with levels resembling realistic environments, NPC allies, and an intriguing opening where the player is off-duty with his buddies playing poker TNG-style when the demonic invasion begins. Ironically, pretty much exactly what came out as Doom 3 and 2016.
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Apr 11, 2020 01:23
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Thank you for the flashing screen warning, I greatly appreciated it.
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Apr 11, 2020 02:25
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note: too much exposure to flashy screen may turn your eyes bright yellow
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Apr 11, 2020 03:07
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There always seems to have been a desire within id software to make role-playing games, although they were never known for it at all. Off the top of my head, there's a "coming soon" announcement in one of the early Commander Keen games about this new fantasy role-playing game they were working on called Quake... I'd completely forgotten about blake stone! Didn't it also have system shock-esque backtracking where you needed to return to previously-visited levels to unlock and do stuff? anilEhilated posted:Okay, so I've got a couple of words about Fortress of Mystery because you didn't really show off what it is about (though no fault of your own - I blame the difficulty level since there would be more monsters -equating to less ammo- on UV). Yeah, there's a dead cacodemon in the baron room near the door as a hint to the player about what they should do. I never figured that out as a kid and just thought the level was grossly unfair. I'm looking forward to episode 3 as well, that's where my favourite level is.
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Apr 11, 2020 03:20
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Crazy Achmed posted:There always seems to have been a desire within id software to make role-playing games, although they were never known for it at all. According to Masters of DooM, one of the early "John Romero is an rear end in a top hat" moments at ID was when Romero wrecked a DND campaign to get a cool sword for his character.
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Apr 11, 2020 03:28
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Crazy Achmed posted:I'd completely forgotten about blake stone! Didn't it also have system shock-esque backtracking where you needed to return to previously-visited levels to unlock and do stuff? No, levels were one & done just like in Wolfenstein. Blake Stone did have an absolute shitload of secrets inside secrets inside secrets, though.
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Apr 11, 2020 03:29
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If I remember right, you could backtrack to old levels in Blake Stone via the main elevator. But I think that was more a case of "Look, you CAN backtrack to old levels! Isn't that wild?" than anything to do with the core gameplay. Though back then the mere idea of "See if I missed any secrets without replaying a whole level or reloading an old save" must have been crazy all on it's own.
Section Z fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Apr 11, 2020 |
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Apr 11, 2020 04:24
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Gantolandon posted:I don't think the Shores of Hell episode is visually uninspiring, its problem is just that it represents a stepping stone between the first and the third. The Hell in Doom slowly subsumes anything it conquers. The Cyberdemon is the best boss though. KeiraWalker posted:Source ports like ZDoom/GZDoom take that 2D data and append 3D data to it, like collision cylinders--for instance, in the original game monsters can not pass above or below each other, or the player. CJacobs posted:Re: Demons being friends, I like to imagine they are like chickens given how quick they are to turn on each other and infight (like chickens). Yeah sure they'll hang out together but only by circumstance. A shared goal almost. Chickens desire that sweet chicken feed, demons desire a dead marine. Section Z posted:If I remember right, you could backtrack to old levels in Blake Stone via the main elevator. But I think that was more a case of "Look, you CAN backtrack to old levels! Isn't that wild?" than anything to do with the core gameplay.
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Apr 11, 2020 21:19
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KeiraWalker posted:Edit the 2nd: I see there is a free PDF of that book; my apologies to NHO. By all means, it probably does a better job of getting into the technical specifics than I ever will! I wouldn't linked it if there wasn't an option to read stuff from any amount of money, starting from none. And the book is worth a read.
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Apr 11, 2020 22:18
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Section Z posted:If I remember right, you could backtrack to old levels in Blake Stone via the main elevator. But I think that was more a case of "Look, you CAN backtrack to old levels! Isn't that wild?" than anything to do with the core gameplay. Though back then the mere idea of "See if I missed any secrets without replaying a whole level or reloading an old save" must have been crazy all on it's own. The very first level contains a secret with one of the tougher enemies of the shareware version. It would be very hard to kill him with the weapons available on that level so your best bet is to come back after getting some better ones.
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Apr 11, 2020 22:42
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turol posted:The very first level contains a secret with one of the tougher enemies of the shareware version. It would be very hard to kill him with the weapons available on that level so your best bet is to come back after getting some better ones. 
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Apr 11, 2020 23:49
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Do you get blocked if you try to run under a caco?
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Apr 13, 2020 10:03
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ilmucche posted:Do you get blocked if you try to run under a caco? Yep. It's particularly troublesome with swarms of Lost Souls.
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Apr 13, 2020 10:19
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Are we spoiling this old classic? I’m thinking about the fact that the game only displays stuff in 2D while not processing it that way. So ledges are kind of like one-way walls that you can shoot through I guess. How does that factor in Doom 2 with killing the Icon of Sin, where you have to ride a platform upwards to reach the height you need to shoot a rocket through its weak point instead of just aiming below it like you do for everything else. I tried some of the new Doom 64 PC port and there’s some of that “platforming” where you just run fast to cross gaps, and I’m wondering how that works given that it’s not 3D.
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Apr 13, 2020 10:35
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Dr Christmas posted:I’m thinking about the fact that the game only displays stuff in 2D while not processing it that way. So ledges are kind of like one-way walls that you can shoot through I guess. How does that factor in Doom 2 with killing the Icon of Sin, where you have to ride a platform upwards to reach the height you need to shoot a rocket through its weak point instead of just aiming below it like you do for everything else. Well, even though the map is two-dimensional, the game does have some awareness of three-dimensional space, because you have to be able to see stuff for the auto-aim to lock on to it and it is possible to accidentally hit a partial-height wall in front of the thing you're trying to shoot at. I'm not certain but I believe the way the Icon of Sin works is that the thing you're actually shooting at is in a little "cave" inside the wall and you only have line of sight to it from one specific angle. You can never actually see it because there's an opaque but permeable barrier in between you, but I think the game treats it as though you can see through it for the purpose of targeting. So from too low or too high you won't have line of sight so you'll shoot straight forward and not into the hole you need to aim at to damage it.
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Apr 13, 2020 11:29
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Every line on the map has three texture assignments - one for the portion below the floor, one for the portion between the floor and the ceiling, and one for the portion above the ceiling. Usually, the one in the middle uses no texture, so it just appears to be open space, but there's nothing in the game engine preventing it from being any of the wall (or floor or ceiling) textures in the game. It still behaves the same; it's just got a texture drawn over it. In-game, they usually put semi-opaque textures over those, like the vines with big holes in them.
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Apr 13, 2020 12:28
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Fabulousity posted:The Descent engine from 1995 could also do the "4D" thing where separate level spaces could occupy the same location and the player could end up in different ones based on how the spaces were connected. It was never intended functionality so it was a bit glitchy: You'd sometimes get visual glitches and area of effect damage would apply across all intersecting spaces while point damage stayed local. Not to derail too much, I knew about 5-D space in Marathon but didn't know Descent also had it. Was it ever used in any of the official levels?
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Apr 13, 2020 13:01
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Item Getter posted:Not to derail too much, I knew about 5-D space in Marathon but didn't know Descent also had it. Was it ever used in any of the official levels? To my knowledge it was never used officially. At some point someone made a hypercube level using the 4D thing but that seems to have been lost to time. Otherwise this guy made a bunch of levels using the quirk.
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Apr 13, 2020 15:29
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Another thing Blake Stone had that was pretty new at the time was stealth - your basic auto-charging pistol was silent, and the game encouraged you to use it in special situations. Of course it wasn't actually strong enough to kill anything except the basic security grunts (and civilians), but the thought was there. The game's villain being a recurring enemy who would jump you in mid-level and then teleport out when defeated was also pretty neat (at least to Kid Me).
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Apr 13, 2020 16:24
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Wolfenstein 3D had stealth, of a sort: shoot an enemy before they're aware of you and they take extra damage. You can see this very clearly with the basic orange-uniform Nazis, which die to one shot from the pistol if shot in the back but take several if alert and firing back at you.
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Apr 13, 2020 17:58
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Doom also has stealth... sorta. Enemies can be marked in the editor as 'ambush' monsters meaning they don't react to sound and only activate when they see you. Generally this is done so monsters don't wake up and start roaming before they're supposed to because they heard a gunshot (like in trap rooms etc), but if you sneak up behind an ambush monster you can just stand behind them and they won't care until you fire. edit: It's actually a little more nuanced. Ambush monsters are still able to hear the player, they just don't activate until you're in sight. You can 'alert' an ambush monster by shooting within earshot and they'll just come to life when you're in view whether they're facing you or not. You can still sneak up on them as I mentioned if they haven't heard you though, which can lead to some shenanigans where the player scoots around a trigger and activates it from the other side, leading to a bunch of dumb inert monsters facing the wrong direction while he stands right next to them. Exploiting monsters' ability to see you is actually super important for slaughtermaps where there are thousands and thousands and you need to selectively wake them up to not get overwhelmed. CJacobs fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Apr 13, 2020 |
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Apr 13, 2020 18:56
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CJacobs posted:You can still sneak up on them as I mentioned if they haven't heard you though, which can lead to some shenanigans where the player scoots around a trigger and activates it from the other side, leading to a bunch of dumb inert monsters facing the wrong direction while he stands right next to them. Makes me think of an early map in Doom II... Tricks and Traps. Related note, my god the SSG is so satisfying to use in Doom II. I've taken to charging directly at Pinkies with it. 
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Apr 13, 2020 23:00
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I have a random question for those who've played the game with both strict vanilla settings and with various source ports' quality of life improvements turned on. Kind of relating to the whole 2D vs. 3D discussion from earlier. Do you find it easier to play with no up/down look and rely on Doom's vertical auto-aim, or to play with free-look and a crosshair? This includes Jacob if someone wants to present him with the question. I'm just personally curious what other people think. I'm still not entirely sure which way I prefer. I have mostly been playing with free look enabled but the full range of vertical auto-aim still turned on, because I want to be able to aim but I kind of suck at it. It does at least make it easier to spot traps/ambushes...
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Apr 16, 2020 16:55
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KeiraWalker posted:I have a random question for those who've played the game with both strict vanilla settings and with various source ports' quality of life improvements turned on. Kind of relating to the whole 2D vs. 3D discussion from earlier. Overall freelook without auto-aim (or minimal auto-aim for ports that offer multiple degrees) is easier to live with. Vanilla's no vertical looking combined with auto-aim can produce some really irritating effects in levels with a lot of vertical elements. Like situations where you shoot your hit scan weapon at an imp in front of you but nothing seems to happen because your shot got diverted to the cacodemon that's "in front" of the imp but just off the top of your screen. Similar weirdness with enemies just off screen on the vertical axis can cause you to unexpectedly blow your own face off with the rocket launcher (infinitely tall blast damage) or whiff a BFG shot. Granted these are sort of fringe cases but they can be completely prevented if the player has total control over aiming. Yeah the game looks kinda wonky if you look up or down more than 30ish degrees but it's worth it to have that much more control over situations because your weapons always do precisely what you expect them to.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:20
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I don't think I've ever played it with anything other than the original keyboard-only controls and vertical auto-aim.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:51
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No vertical look also makes it really hard to fight on stairs. Since rockets have way more horizontal speed than vertical lift when auto-aimed at stuff above you, firing a rocket on stairs will just blow you up.
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Apr 16, 2020 19:53
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Fun fact: Cheerful theme w/xylophone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETV9fPmieOM appears in a later doom game! Its here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNkQMtZAMAw&t=157s
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Apr 16, 2020 22:58
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 Apparently it's an eye. Apparently.
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Apr 17, 2020 20:00
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Section Z posted:This makes me think about the wolfenstein engine game, Blake Stone. With such revolutionary concepts as "SOME of these Scientists are not evil!" and "Vending machines" SOME of the scientists are not evil. To find out if a scientist is evil, walk up to him and press the Use key. If he is good, he will give you a vague hint which on some extremely rare occasions will include instructions on how to reach a secret. If he is evil, he will give you a hilariously sinister dialogue line in the bottom corner of your screen OR suddenly pull out an incredibly powerful short-range weapon and unload it directly into your face, potentially killing or crippling you on the spot, and then run away at very high speed. Oh and if you shoot the wrong type they utter a terrible high-pitched scream, bewailing their terrible fate as an innocent slaughtered by your callous gunfire, and tank your score. Not a good game mechanic, that one. At least once you'd identified a good scientist they'd hand out ammo and vending machine tokens. (Oh and there was a purpose to going back to old levels, switches on later levels sometimes opened areas of them up and allowed access to supplies and secret levels, Hexen-style).
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Apr 17, 2020 21:55
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When you get there play Mt. Erebus (E3M6) with red/blue 3D glasses on.
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Apr 17, 2020 22:33
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I found that secret wall in Slough of Despair (E3M2) by myself. It's not even hard. You just have to look at the map, because it draws a nice big arrow for you to follow 
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Apr 17, 2020 23:10
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When I was a kid, I wondered how the same bullets were supposed to shoot from the pistol and the chaingun. What a world we live in that we can have an answer to that question. It's either that the two guns launch the bullets with different power, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i-nMWgBUp0&t=17s Or the pistol is able to fire the same size of bullet, like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWw9-Wdbvao
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Apr 17, 2020 23:35
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The BFG doesn't use a cone or vectors, as far as I could tell from my time messing with the EXE. It's just another projectile with a much, much larger explosion, and you're somehow immune to your own shots. If you set, say, exploding barrels to use the BFG's explosion animation, though... While damage floors are bound to actual patches of floor, both teleports and triggers for things like doors opening are actually bound to specific lines between the sections. So you get things like teleporters that take you someplace different depending on which side you step on, or a spot that closes a door if you step on it from the wrong side. I think each one also has a front and back, so it normally only triggers from one side or the other, and you can't set a different trigger for each side. You can, however, place a very thin section of floor so that there are two lines and bind an action to each of them, but you have to be careful about that. The DOOM engine doesn't like having too many transparent lines in a single spot, or at least, a level I once tried to make with a grid of semi-random teleports just never worked at all.
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Apr 18, 2020 01:11
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Fun fact: Cheerful theme w/xylophone appears in a later doom game! This reminds me that I recently found out the title screen music for Doom Eternal is the music from the final level of Doom II, Opening to Hell: Doom II: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G_f6LCwmsE Doom Eternal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9S4_NCvSzA Nidoking posted:The BFG doesn't use a cone or vectors, as far as I could tell from my time messing with the EXE. It's just another projectile with a much, much larger explosion, and you're somehow immune to your own shots. If you set, say, exploding barrels to use the BFG's explosion animation, though... Hah, there's some amusing anecdotes about messing with explosions in Doom earlier in the thread. Listening to Decino explain it, the BFG 9000's initial shot hitting something triggers a 40-degree spread of 40 hitscan beams from the barrel of the gun, which is why if you fire it point-blank at a cyberdemon it'll die in a couple of hits; but if you fire it from a decent range, it can take up to seven shots. Fabulousity posted:Overall freelook without auto-aim (or minimal auto-aim for ports that offer multiple degrees) is easier to live with. Vanilla's no vertical looking combined with auto-aim can produce some really irritating effects in levels with a lot of vertical elements. Like situations where you shoot your hit scan weapon at an imp in front of you but nothing seems to happen because your shot got diverted to the cacodemon that's "in front" of the imp but just off the top of your screen. Similar weirdness with enemies just off screen on the vertical axis can cause you to unexpectedly blow your own face off with the rocket launcher (infinitely tall blast damage) or whiff a BFG shot. Granted these are sort of fringe cases but they can be completely prevented if the player has total control over aiming. Yeah the game looks kinda wonky if you look up or down more than 30ish degrees but it's worth it to have that much more control over situations because your weapons always do precisely what you expect them to. That is a valid point and I've noticed issues with the auto-aim myself, now that you mention it. I typically don't pull the trigger unless I've got something in my sights, but it has caused enough weirdness to make me wonder. KeiraWalker fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 02:53
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You know, I'm starting to see why people spend so much of their praise for the original Doom on the first act. I'd also say the weapon resets make Doom's pacing feel more stop and start than it should. Going back to the pistol means every set of levels has to give you small enemy groups at the start, and getting your plasma rifle back is less interesting than just... getting a plasma rifle. Also, Quake gives an official height for the Doomguy. He's six foot even. Not huge, not short. chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 03:57 on Apr 18, 2020 |
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Apr 18, 2020 03:25
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The BFG's unique mechanics mean you can do things like fire a shot into the distance, then turn in a completely different direction, and the hitscan beams will spray wherever you're looking, with no relation to the projectile itself.
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Apr 18, 2020 03:48
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