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Timeless Appeal posted:I would argue that something like I, Zombie that adds tons of wrinkles to zombies like them passing for human as long as they eat brains still has a lot of thematic DNA from Romero's stuff moreso than Twlight or Underworld does with Nosferatu. That's actually an evolution of Return of the Living Dead, which brought that up explicitly.
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Jun 6, 2020 05:04
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The ROTLD zombies are a lot more voracious and the brains make them sated for like, 5 seconds.
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Jun 6, 2020 05:34
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Ok, voting time. Gonna go bottom to top. Best Sequel - Maybe the easiest of this bunch for me, even if it might not be the most popular. I like Dawn a lot but I think it ages in a real way. Mind you it aged way better than I thought it would when I rewatched it recently and wasn’t the overly preachy slow film I thought I remembered. But while I enjoyed it I didn’t have nearly as much fun with it as I did Evil Dead II. And from a “followup” or evolution perspective Dawn is obviously an advancement on Romero’s apocalypse and social subtext theme. But Evil Dead II really defines the franchise. It takes Raimi’s slight dark humor in the first one which is largely a straight horror but has a sly wit to it and graduates it to the blend of manic slapstick insanity that the series truly is. That feels like it should matter. And again, I just straight up like EDII more. Evil Dead Best Remake - A very difficult one. I really like Evil Dead ’13. I also really like Jane Levy and am actually kinda sad there doesn’t exist a horror franchise with her at the forefront. Funnily enough I think if they had stuck with the Raimi style she could have really delivered there too. But I appreciated that they went their own way and have long felt like if this film had another name it would be seen as an Evil Dead homage and be greater appreciated. Since it was a “soft reboot” it came with different expectations for people but that didn’t hurt me. On the flip side, I love the 90’s Night and the only things that could make the original better are probably Tony Todd and giving Barbara some agency. So well done. I also like Snyder’s Dawn a lot and again appreciate that it went its own path with it. Its very difficult. But, if we’re counting Dawn then it seems only fair that we’re also counting Day of the Dead ’08. And holy poo poo is that a piece of poo poo. If there’s one film of this lot that I’ve seen the most and probably enjoy the most it might be Snyder’s Dawn. I’ve definitely seen it the most as its very rewatchable to me. But it feels unfair to give Dead 3 options and discount the worst of them. So I’m gonna say Dawn ’04 and Day ’08 cancel each other out and this is Evil Dead ’13 vs Night ’90. And while I love Tony Todd and appreciate what they did with Barbara I think its too much of a direct remake for me to put it over Evil Dead ’13 which I really enjoyed both as its own thing and as an alternative take on Raimi’s vision. So Evil Dead, Best Gore - This is a tough one to figure out how to judge because the truth is I’m not really a “gore” guy. Objectively speaking Day of the Dead probably carries the “gore” as the word is typically defined. The truth is I enjoy Evil Dead’s “gore” more because its generally coupled with Raimi’s sardonic wit/slapstick insanity. So while watching people get decapitated doesn’t do a lot for me the jokes they’re presented in make me laugh most of the time. But is that what I’m supposed to be voting on? Its not the Best Comedy category. So should I just uncouple those elements and judge it solely on a cold criteria of “best gore”? If so Romero/Day definitely takes it. But is this just a “Best Blood and Guts Special Effects” category? Can’t even count Ash vs Evil Dead’s demons and stuff since that’s not “gore”, really, more CGI effects. Its obvious I WANT to give this to Evil Dead but it doesn’t feel right. I may not love gore and I may not fully appreciate Savini’s work, but like… on an objective scale I gotta give it to Romero’s Dead, Best Overall Franchise - Moment of truth. The score says ED 2-1, but some of that’s probably kind of arbitrary to be honest. If it had been Day of the Dead vs Army of Darkness instead Dawn vs Evil Dead 2 I might have given it to Romero. If it had been straight Dawn ’04 vs ED ’13 instead of Night ’90 I might have gone Dawn. If there was an “Importance” or “Legacy” vote I probably would have given that to Romero. Other categories would go ED’s way. So how does this shake out? The math should tell me Evil Dead, but as I said the math is somewhat selective. My heart tells me its Evil Dead. I love[/b] and appreciate Romero’s Dead films but I [i]enjoy Evil Dead more. Its fun. And I can watch it top to bottom without a single low point while Romero’s got 2 legitimately bad films (3 if you count Day ’08) and I like Land but its probably after every ED film on my list. When you add in the 3 seasons of Ash vs the Evil Dead I don’t think there’s a question I get more out of that franchise in pure quality of quantity as well as the ratio of good to bad. But there’s that one thing that makes me uncertain. Its Night of the Living Dead. Maybe my single favorite film of all time. Maybe one of the single most important films of all time. Not horror films, films. I would have no problem trying to convince anyone that Night is a must watch, but I’d only really recommend Evil Dead to people who I knew might enjoy that kind of horror. And its not a one hit franchise. I genuinely like Dawn, Day, and Land with no real qualifications. Plus Night ’90 and Dawn ’04. Its a great franchise and a deserving champion even if its not a flawless one. But I kind of feel like Evil Dead is almost flawless. I didn’t think that when this started. But I’ve revisited it, re-evaluated it, and weeks ago I realized that it might actually be the rightful winner of this thing. And that’s kind of what a “Tournament” should be. Cinderella stories and upsets is what makes the magic. Two months ago I would have voted for Romero for sure. Today? Evil Dead. So there you go. Evil Dead 3-1. A hard choice but I would have had second doubts if I went the other way too. I’ve also done something that I’m VERY excited to share. But patience. There will be a right time.
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Jun 6, 2020 05:57
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Lurdiak posted:The ROTLD zombies are a lot more voracious and the brains make them sated for like, 5 seconds. As I said, an evolution. Not a straight lift. It's more an evolution of RotLD 3 than it is the first but that's neither here nor there. You also see it in the Santa Clarita Diet RIP
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Jun 6, 2020 06:05
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david_a posted:
I'd rank it higher than Diary, which is a low, low bar admittedly. Timeless Appeal posted:
I Zombie also has them take on memories and personalities of the brains they eat, which I don't recall seeing done before.
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Jun 6, 2020 11:49
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Watchin a bunch of NOTLD/Evil Dead today to mark the end of the tournament. Really a great idea, we definitely should do a variation of it again sometime.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:04
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Agreed. Next I'd love to do something like a body horror bracket that allows us to get really deep into one sub-genre.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:14
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For what it's worth, I think Santa Clarita Diet and iZombie speak to trends that we see in a lot of other movie monsters. Werewolves and vampires often get appropriated for other genres--comedy, superhero, romance--and change and shift as they go. Even Return of the Living Dead reimagines the zombies to incorporate a lot of 80s trends around body horror and I'd argue there is a Gremlins like quality to those zombies.
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Jun 6, 2020 18:55
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feedmyleg posted:Agreed. Next I'd love to do something like a body horror bracket that allows us to get really deep into one sub-genre. The first is that, while "as a franchise" sounds good, it probably would have been better if it was "single film," even if that meant things like Romero getting 3 entries or Jason getting none. It would also have allowed more 'all-timers' to be entered and clear the deck of the Sleepaway Camps and Feasts of the world. Second is that if you're gonna do a bracket where there's a lot of things to vote on, it's best to skip the 64 round and go straight to the 32, because the chance of an upset is so, so low (FDTD and Final Destination were the only two first-round upsets, and even that was against borked seeds. Ginger Snaps was at no time a #4 seed I just screwed up) Third is that there should definitely be a specific thing you're judging other than "favorite" each round, even if it rotates, because otherwise you could do the whole thing in a day with a ranked-choice poll. When I hosted Pop Culture Playoffs, we always added a few things like I did in the last round to each voting session. You can still go by favorite, but having that extra area of discussion makes it more interesting and challenging to pick a winner. I admit it also would let something beat a stronger competitor if it had a world-class Soundtrack and was up against a better overall movie in the "music counts" round, but there's ways around that. Finally, the things being rated need to be easily available. I think the Universal and Hammer films coasted a lot on their reputation because they're so hard to watch comparatively. I know some of us have the nerd-wall with a thousand blu-rays of the classics, but not everyone does. Concessions to accessibility matter. Anyway, I'll be watching the NIT tournament STAC said they wanted to do to see how they can improve things.
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Jun 6, 2020 20:02
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I wonder if you could do a double tier of pre-voting to cut down the franchises to a single film. First basically just prescribe the best of the Franchise (Friday the 13th Part 6, Dream Warriors, Bride of Frankenstein, etc). Then have people vote if we should just roll with the prescription or if they would strongly like debate. For the ones where the majority wants a debate then open it up to ranked voting. That way you allow the predictable Friday the 13th/Nightmare/Universal/Romero/Hammer debates happen, but don't have to waste time with TCM, Halloween, Psycho, or The Exorcist which will probably have a few contrarians, but I imagine go predictably.
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Jun 6, 2020 20:30
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Shrecknet posted:Second is that if you're gonna do a bracket where there's a lot of things to vote on, it's best to skip the 64 round and go straight to the 32, because the chance of an upset is so, so low I'd say that the fewer the films the more likely it is the thread actually watches them beforehand rather than going on memories or the one or two films in the series they've seen. If every week were a 1v1 match, I think everyone would watch/rewatch the films in that week and discuss. It would be far fewer films to talk about, but the discussion would be a lot richer because everyone would have something to say about every film. So I'd say a bracket of 8 is way more interesting than a bracket of 32 from that standpoint. e: But yeah, having everyone voting on the same criteria would be interesting as well, even if it was arbitrarily "most essential to see" or "loser would be erased from memory" or whatever.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:20
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I’m here for however it shakes out to have something to read/post about and a reason to watch great movies.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:25
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feedmyleg posted:e: But yeah, having everyone voting on the same criteria would be interesting as well, even if it was arbitrarily "most essential to see" or "loser would be erased from memory" or whatever.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:30
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I dunno it may be possible on short notice to do a "showing" of the winner.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:32
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I liked the "franchises". I think it was more interesting than single films. It opened up a ton of discussion and criteria and debate and gave a ton of options of what you felt like diving into or watching. Individual films might have had more people watching the same movies and voicing opinions, but it also would have been a lot of the same opinions and debates. Where with franchises three people can all be for the same franchise and have wildly different reasons why. I also think that opened up way more angles for people to change their minds and for debates to actually work. But like, we did franchises and now that's over. So barring a NIT for the guys who didn't make that (I'll work on a OP or plan tonight) there's no reason to revisit the franchise idea, at least in the big tournament format. So if we did another big tourney, yeah, sure, individual films or sub genres or whatever. I suspect sub genres would make for more discovery of new films and lively discussion but it also would probably eliminate some people who just weren't interested in the niche. I dunno. I think maybe we could do a looser "Trilogy" tourney with specific collections of 3 films pulled from franchises (Night/Dawn/Day of the Dead; Nightmare/Dream Warriors/New Nightmare; Evil Dead) as well as looser spiritual trilogies that aren't a true franchise (Thing/Prince of Darkness/Mouth of Madness; Suspiria/Inferno/Mother of Tears). That would open up more entries who didn't make it and change up the math of the guys who did make this one. Like Jason and Chucky or Michael would have a harder time since they have no natural trilogies in their franchise but Romero, Freddy, and ED would arguably be stronger players. But that probably shouldn't be done immediately because we could just end up with the same results. I like a field of 64. Upsets are rare but when they do happen it makes it magical. And in this case I think it gave everyone more time to work through films/franchises. Like, I think that's the appeal of this. Giving us all excuses to rewatch or watch for the first time films. And yeah, the field of 64 will probably have a predictable round, but that's 32 more films to expose people to and theoretically the bottom 32 will be the ones people will be less familiar with. I'm not a huge fan of the "criteria voting" but I really like how you did it with the final where its a math game But I also think criteria voting would work best in the first round where you could set up matchups specifically for shared elements. Once you get late into the tournament judging 2 films on elements that only one of them really valued is kind of arbitrary. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 23:41
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I'd love to see a chaos tournament. Throw a lot of different criteria from reasonable to crazy into a hat, make a random seed tournament, pull a criterion out of the hat for each individual matchup, go nuts. So what if Leprechaun wins due to an insanely unlikely turn of events, it's just for fun anyways.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:29
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"Which is the best movie with Warwick Davis" The options are Leprechaun VS Halloween
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Jun 7, 2020 01:31
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married but discreet posted:I'd love to see a chaos tournament. Throw a lot of different criteria from reasonable to crazy into a hat, make a random seed tournament, pull a criterion out of the hat for each individual matchup, go nuts. So what if Leprechaun wins due to an insanely unlikely turn of events, it's just for fun anyways. "Spin The Wheel" criteria would certainly be a worthy stunt, especially as a shorter single film tournament. You've convinced me.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:53
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Burkion posted:"Which is the best movie with Warwick Davis" Return of the Jedi 
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Jun 7, 2020 02:01
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Return of the Ewok
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Jun 7, 2020 02:08
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I mean the real answer is Willow but yea
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Jun 7, 2020 02:13
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Woo I made it, watched Survival of the Dead and Ash vs Evil Dead S3 back-to-back (my head hurts). This is the first matchup where I can in clean conscious say I’m voting based on the entirety of both franchises. Remake - Night 90 wasn’t as good as I remembered it being. It’s not bad, but the best parts are when it strays from the original movie and the worst when it apes it too closely. I thought that ED 13 would take this but it turns out that movie wasn’t my style at all. No humor seems like a sin in an Evil Dead movie. Other than the gore I don’t know what stands out about this movie and I’m not really a fan of that type of sadism. Romero for me. For it’s faults, Night 90 at least feels like NotLD. Gore - Army of Darkness being one of the core movies and also practically being PG-13 really hurts ED here. Day practically wins it on its own - Steel blowing his brains out, that one guys scream changing pitch as his throat is ripped out, Rhodes... The rest of the series isn’t really a slouch either. Land among others has some memorable moments (that zombie scooping guts out of somebodies mouth stuck with me). ED has its plenty of its own moments too but I gotta go with Romero here again for more lasting images. Sequel - Evil Dead II is one of the most insane movies ever made and kinda set me up for continual disappointment when I discovered so few other movies swing for the fences like this. Dawn is great too though, jeez. I’m gonna go with Evil Dead II on this one for being more rewatchable (being considerably shorter helps). Franchise - For Evil Dead it’s only the remake I don’t like but I’m not sure I would really call it bad. Season 3 of Ash vs Evil Dead felt like it saved the show for me. Maybe it was just due to taking a long break from it, but Ash felt uncharacteristically gross in the first two seasons. For Romero, Diary is just bad. So, so bad. Survival felt like what I expected the drop in quality to be after Land. It wasn’t just the trash effects and acting that bothered me, the writing seemed really preachy and self important and it did an absolutely miserable job justifying why somebody would keep filming instead of dropping the camera and helping out. Is that enough to tank the series? Well... no. The first four films are strong enough that I know I’ll rewatch them in the future many times and include a nearly universally admired classic in Night. With Evil Dead I feel like realistically it’s just ED2/AoD I’ll come back to. Romero wins even just when comparing quantity.
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Jun 7, 2020 06:12
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Fran suggested the next tournament should be horror directors, which would bring in directors who wound up completely unrepresented in this bracket like David Cronenberg, Lynch, etc.
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Jun 7, 2020 13:50
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That would be fun but we'd have to exclude John Carpenter.
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Jun 7, 2020 14:55
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married but discreet posted:That would be fun but we'd have to exclude John Carpenter. Then you'd have to ban every #1 seed. #1 seeds will always have an edge but they can be beat. We have a non #1 in the finals here and not the overall #1.
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Jun 7, 2020 15:49
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No way Carpenter would not win that. Best Horror director is a clinch for him.
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Jun 7, 2020 17:22
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For me yea Carpenter has always been far and away #1 with nobody in the rear-view mirror(no, not even Stuart Gordon), but I figure there are enough Craven fans or Romero fans to make it interesting. Don't forget the older generations like James Whale and Terrence Fisher and Mario Bava either. There would be a lot of serious contenders. There's a lot more fun to these things than just finding out the ultimate winner. I enjoy the early rounds where you get interesting matchups that spark some unusual conversations. Edit: Hitchcock is another potential threat to Carpenter Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 17:34 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 17:28
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A director tournament with some added twist would be fun, like randomly picking one of the director’s movies for each round. Ghosts of Mars going up against Survival of the Dead isn’t what anybody would naturally leap to for a Carpenter vs Romero matchup.
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Jun 7, 2020 17:51
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Jordan Peele's CV isn't long but he does have more Oscars than Carpenter... EDIT: IT'S OVER!  I've disguised which side is which but these are the final vote totals, to give you an idea how close everything was. Long-form results coming shortly Shrecknet fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 17:51
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I think the issue with battling directors against eachother, is that Bava has something like 70 horror films under his belt, Fulci has around 60. How are we supposed to make an informed decision within a short period of time? Do you choose the top 5 movies of each director? I think someone suggested doing a lesser-known franchise bracket, and that would be my choice. I want to see Tombs of the Blind Dead face off against The Slumber Party Massacre.
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Jun 7, 2020 18:05
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It's Results TIIIIIME! First off, for a commanding head start... BEST FRANCHISE! Across all media, all versions, just what franchise is the biggest best most important and worthy of the title "The Greatest Horror Franchise of All-Time"... and the winner is:  Night of the Living Dead, with a clear 2-to-1 mandate, picks up the 2 points here for Best Franchise. Evil Dead is already behind the eight-ball, one more win and Living Dead has this all sewn up. NOTLD 2 : EVIL DEAD 0 Next, BEST GORE! Gnarliest, grodiest, most disgusting or hilarious, what movie's practical effects stick with you? The envelope please....  Evil Dead squeaks out a win. Savini's best work is on the Living Dead franchise and it shows but in the end the arterial sprays and dismembered hands flipping the finger were enough to get Evil Dead over the top. NOTLD 2 : EVIL DEAD 1 Next, BEST SEQUEL! Sequels are all about upping the ante and making things count even more. Terminator 2, Aliens and Empire Strikes Back are regarded not just as some of the best sequels of all time, but best movies, period. Which franchise's sequel in our matchup does the best job of truly raising the stakes and scope of their stories?  Dawn of the Dead is certainly a revelation and firmly cements Romero's legend. He could easily have retired after just Night and Dawn as one of the all-time greats. But... That doesn't get over the hump against what is easily the best second installment in any franchise in all of horror, a genre notorious for falling off a cliff after one good idea. Raimi's manic energy and the subtle shift to pure slapstick is fully on display here, and it takes the crown. NOTLD 2 : EVIL DEAD 2 (oh poo poo we got ourselves a game! And our final category, BEST REMAKE! Which franchise wasn't just a zeitgeist-snatching moment, but an honest-to-god touchstone that is so good that other directors and creators have come in, taken the original material and made it their own? Which ideas at the core of the originals are so strong even a new team can make something great?  Nothing against Savini or Snyder, but the Evil Dead 13 remake captured everything we loved about Evil Dead while taking it in an interesting direction. NOTLD 2 : EVIL DEAD 3 And so. your winner, by a split-decision 3-2, for the greatest horror movie franchise of all time is....  EVIL DEAD!  Thanks to all the franchises that participated, especially our second-place finish of Night of the Living Dead. You are forever treasured in our hearts. Now go eat some brains! 
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Jun 7, 2020 18:22
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Winning best franchise, and then falling based on the remake is a huge oof. That said congrats to everyone who fought hard and contributed! This has been an awesome journey 
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Jun 7, 2020 18:29
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Awesome, what a finish! Now let's do a battle for third place so people can get that out of their system.
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Jun 7, 2020 18:30
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That's a pretty interesting way to finish. The classic "total vs. the sum of the parts" argument and in this case the sum of the parts wins I guess.
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Jun 7, 2020 18:38
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Jun 7, 2020 18:39
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 gently caress yeah. We did it, folks! I was convinced a slasher was going to win all the way up til the semis, and gently caress that. Really glad it went to such a fun franchise that is an absolute blast of a love-letter to the genre. Evil Dead as a series is a celebration of why we love horror so much, so I think it's really fitting that when all is said and done, Ash is standing on the top of a heap of slain foes that were way out of his league, shotgun in hand, gut hanging out of his torn shirt. Basebf555 posted:For me yea Carpenter has always been far and away #1 with nobody in the rear-view mirror Corman  Though admittedly more as a producer than a director. But still. feedmyleg fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 19:01
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This has been an exciting time. I loved the score twist in the finals, Shrek. This helped keep me sane and occupied through the quarantine and my unemployment. But something is missing. There's something that just doesn't feel complete about our March Madness. I can't quite put my finger on it. One thing. Shining in my mind. Give me a Moment. Oh wait... I think I got it... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eklcorOZgYE
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Jun 7, 2020 19:56
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I'm okay with these results. Good job every body !
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Jun 7, 2020 20:02
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STAC Goat posted:This has been an exciting time. I loved the score twist in the finals, Shrek. This helped keep me sane and occupied through the quarantine and my unemployment. But something is missing. There's something that just doesn't feel complete about our March Madness. I can't quite put my finger on it. One thing. Shining in my mind. Give me a Moment. Oh wait... I think I got it... Beautiful. Truly beautiful.
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Jun 7, 2020 20:57
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STAC Goat posted:This has been an exciting time. I loved the score twist in the finals, Shrek. This helped keep me sane and occupied through the quarantine and my unemployment. But something is missing. There's something that just doesn't feel complete about our March Madness. I can't quite put my finger on it. One thing. Shining in my mind. Give me a Moment. Oh wait... I think I got it... Magnificent
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Jun 7, 2020 21:12
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