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So, ARTILLERY, yeah, I love them, but they also slow down the gameplay so much. In most missions where you have artillery it feels more about your patience than about your tactical acumen since any time you don't rush, you can pretty much obliterate the enemy from a distance. Rather than a standard unit, in my opinion, the game would have benefited from them being escortables which, when in a given position, would unpack and shell the hell out of a pre-determined area, while enemies come for them in waves that you have to push off. The other problem is fighting enemy bases because bases in GC1 are just... boxes. Outside of rare cases like the second mission where you're taking out the power for the turrets, most of the buildings don't have a function. There isn't power you can blow up for all stationary defenses, there aren't barracks housing enemy infantry you can blow up before the infantry deploys, or repair bays that support enemy vehicles, or landing pads that resupply their aerodynes, they're just decorative blow-it-up goals. Hell, even just some base buildings being high-explosive, like fuel silos/ammo dumps that would take out nearby buildings/troops if you popped them. Heck even if you could spare enemy ammo dumps to loot spare secondary-weapon ammo for your own troops, that would be a neat side effect, give the player a reason to take a side trip to a not-needed hostile base to repower their own troops. But yeah that's just my problems with GC1.
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Apr 27, 2020 11:06
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Centurium posted:Mine eyes have seen the glory of the firing of the Hogs This is beautiful. Two missions from now though, I intend a counter-demonstration against the third line here. That takes nothing away from the fact that it's still a beautiful composition. You have greatly enhanced this thread  re: Purple XVI … The patience thing would already be there without artillery IMO. Templar make it so as well - the whole way that units are designed with not merely hard, but virtually impregnable counters places scouting and patience at a premium on hard difficulty I think. When I was younger it was all Wolf terradynes on defensive on easy difficulty so I could withstand anything, but that doesn't really fly otherwhise. From my perspective, the types of changes you'd prefer would make Ground Control a very different kind of game, much closer to a normal RTS. There's nothing wrong with those kinds of features in that environment, I just don't think they fit in this game - it's not what it is trying to be. Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 00:19 on Apr 29, 2020 |
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Apr 29, 2020 00:15
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I agree that patience is generally required already, but the artillery really exacerbates it, since in my memory the enemy on many maps doesn't really have a counter to: "the player brought sufficient AA and is meticulously shelling every pixel from maximum range with his biggest possible allotment of artillery." The hard and hard-ish time limits on some maps prevent it, but once artillery is introduced, practically every map that doesn't have one of those might as well just auto-win itself.
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Apr 29, 2020 00:47
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Offensive missions without timelimit really are an autowin with a couple of Hogs in the backline. When you defend, you can still be a bit overwhelm by the sheer mass of hoverdynes coming your way at times. Yet I feel the way the game teaches you about turtling with the arty didn't prepare you well for MP, or at least didn't prepare me well for it. The MP maps let you flank pretty well and you couldn't field out a big enough force to cover all angles. So fielding a lot of arty in the beginning wasn't necessarily the best idea. I suspect 3D graphics played a role in the sheer firepower of the Hogs though. Ground Control was pretty revolutionary at the time for its 3D engine in a RTS game. I also quite like the design of the hogs with their rotating barrels. Shogun Total War, the first one in the series came about within the same timeframe I think, was using 2D spirites for units at the time. I guess someone at Massive really did love big explosions, GC and WiC attest to that. And when they still look good 17 years later, who can blame them? As an aside, is there a waypoint system in the game? Didn't seem to be introduced in the tutorial missions. My memory's fuzzy.
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Apr 29, 2020 17:21
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 Anti Air Raid (59:41) The grind level goes up another notch in a zig-zagging attack mission. We get access to aerodynes now, the last branch of the Crayven military, but they don't end up doing us a whole lot of good given how much vulnerability they have on this map. The payoff here really is the end, where it's made clear the second attack has come to an end, and there's something new afoot with the Xenofacts.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:43
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Nope, no waypoint system. I also definitely can't speak to MP at all - that's not my bailiwick.
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Apr 29, 2020 21:44
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I don't know why, but I have the feeling things are going to go to poo poo. Also I guess he survived by running like his rear end was on fire. And "Sympathetic signal resonance" at least means what it is supposed to mean, that's pretty good as far as technobabble goes.
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Apr 30, 2020 02:02
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I will have more to say on artillery being the be-all and end-all later (and I did play MP but it's impossible to discuss without spoilers, sigh). But yes the simplest counter is to simply move when you see the shells coming down. There's a reason the JANICE warhead has a higher and faster trajectory if you look, and that's because it's a YOU! DIE NOW! button for troublesome heavy turrets/hoverdynes. And yes in this map we saw when Heavy Hoverdynes can be dangerous. Against a line of MBTs in open terrain they were fodder, against one squad of MBTs in dense terrain with their range advantage, they can mulch you. One thing I was sad we didn't see shown off on this map; the "anti-aerospace" guns sit underground in silos at mission start. If you scroll over to one and watch when it first comes into visual range, they have some amazing animation of slowly opening their domed hatches and rising out of the ground. The silo interior is even lit and detailed too if you zoom all the way in. Some structures also have ambient sound effects if you move the camera close, mostly Crayven ones.
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Apr 30, 2020 03:35
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Now we're starting to see some of the issues with the lack of save. That level was over an hour without the edits. You have to eliminate a whole lot of infantry of both kinds, and deal with air and heavy armored units. And you're just one missed patrol, or one faulty pathfinding route, or one poorly-timed move away from disaster. I do like that you're forced to use good tactics, and in truth you can play well enough to avoid getting surprised most of the time. But it makes for a very tedious experience. Kangra fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 30, 2020 |
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Apr 30, 2020 03:46
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Kangra posted:I do like that you're forced to use good tactics, and in truth you can play well enough to avoid getting surprised most of the time. But it makes for a very tedious experience. You're definitely not wrong here, and they aren't going to get any shorter going forward for the most part. Loxbourne posted:the "anti-aerospace" guns sit underground in silos at mission start. If you scroll over to one and watch when it first comes into visual range, they have some amazing animation of slowly opening their domed hatches and rising out of the ground. The silo interior is even lit and detailed too if you zoom all the way in. Huh, this I didn't know - I guess I've always been more concerned with the other threats closer by. .
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May 2, 2020 11:43
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SIGSEGV posted:I don't know why, but I have the feeling things are going to go to poo poo. It's a Sierra game. They published Half-Life and Homeworld around this time. I'm calling this a safe bet. Also, the gloves come all the way off soon from a gameplay standpoint, so there's that.
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May 4, 2020 21:06
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Simple Escort Duty (1:00:30) Unedited, this was even a little longer than the last one. Shockingly, only the last two words of the title fit. The first one is a flat-out lie. We get access to the Ocelot anti-air terradyne, which we can choose instead of the artillery if we want and are another unit that is a one-trick-pony, but dominant in their intended role. For this mission, I use eight squads and none of them are of the same type. I don't think I'll be able to pull that off again for the rest of the campaign. We also see the attack aerodynes on our side in action. And some cheeky mission design shows it's face again. Available Squads We have one 'specialist terradyne' and two aerodyne squads available. Also, some new types are coming up in the next mission where we pretty much reach the point of full, desperate, all-out conflict. We're done playing around and learning things now for the most part - the Order is desperate and Crayven is determined … and only one can control the Krig 7B Xenofacts. For whatever good that might do them. Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 21:12 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 21:09
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Using aircraft seems like it's a game of worrying all the time about AA positions, even more than using those lightly armored specialist units while in ambush paradise.
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May 5, 2020 00:52
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I generally always dislike AA-only(or anti-sub only or anti-space only or whatever the case) units in strategy games, because usually they vaporize air units in seconds, while without them enemy air is almost impossible to deal with. So it becomes a very sort of unsatisfactory binary thing where either you predicted you'd need them and brought the right amount, and enemy air is irrelevant, or you didn't and either A) you've now got useless dead weight units or B) you didn't bring any and you need to restart. When Rock-Paper-Scissors hard counters get too nuanced it just makes the game unfun.
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May 5, 2020 21:01
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My suspicion is that introducing ballistic modelling (over, say, %-to-hit) while retaining abstract health bars on units is inherently unbalancing for high rate of fire specialist applications, and the rock-paper-scissors style targeting restrictions is the easiest way to resolve this. I've had my anti-air strafe an enemy infantry unit up a hill when the targeted air unit flew behind it, goodbye infantry. In Sword of the Stars (also with ballistic modelling), anti-missile systems only target incoming missiles but if you got in close and happened to strafe an enemy ship, massive damage resulted. Strategic Sage, is there a reason to have the Jaeger unit on hold fire that I'm not seeing? Free fire is obviously undesireable, but if they're being shot at then they're already spotted and there's no problem shooting back? Admittedly I didn't play on hard so maybe they suck at shooting altogether here, but from what I recall they could at least take out a couple of light hoverdynes?
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May 6, 2020 05:06
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PurpleXVI posted:When Rock-Paper-Scissors hard counters get too nuanced it just makes the game unfun. True if you are playing StarCraft, C&C, or whatever IMO. I once again think it's different here since you are choosing from a limited number of squads, so things like this have a place here where they wouldn't in a more traditional RTS.
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May 10, 2020 19:25
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Take & Control (57:07) A weird easter egg and the first loss of an entire squad make their appearance as we continue futzing about with the Xenofacts. The extent of the relics' plot armor is revealed here as well, along with a new and highly dangerous Order weapon. We've now got squads of all types sitting open, including one replacement for the aforementioned casualty. Next, the scene will shift and we'll enter the final phase of the campaign.
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May 10, 2020 19:28
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PSA: You may have noticed the schedule's gotten a bit sporadic here, and that will continue. For the past three weeks now, I've become a 'professional shopper', which I plan on continuing to do even after the pandemic abates. This hobby has become a bit of a casualty of that. Lots of adjustments are happening for me personally; physical, psychological, daily routine, and so forth. This project and the others will proceed, but at what frequency is anybody's guess. I don't have any good sense of how long it will be before a 'new normal' emerges, only that I'm not there yet.
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May 11, 2020 02:27
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Well, now that we have superiority in orbit, we have to either launch a large number of assaults which the Astrid can't all support or have the Order find a magical alientech way to mitigate that advantage. Or the game could play it straight for a while and let us gleefully call down space artillery. Pressing F for the Gormans.
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May 11, 2020 03:46
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Once you get heavy tanks, artillery, and AA guns (gun or rocket variety) at the same time I feel there's very little reason to take anything else for terradynes if you're given the option. The medium tanks do have their deployable repair station so it can be worth it to bring a single squad of them if your APC needs repairs but other than that just one big line of big guns.
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May 13, 2020 05:04
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Kibayasu posted:Once you get heavy tanks, artillery, and AA guns (gun or rocket variety) at the same time I feel there's very little reason to take anything else for terradynes if you're given the option. The medium tanks do have their deployable repair station so it can be worth it to bring a single squad of them if your APC needs repairs but other than that just one big line of big guns. It's the fact that medium tanks do very slightly more damage than heavy tanks which means there are edge cases where you might want them.
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May 13, 2020 08:22
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Under The Field (1:06:05) The stupidest game of ring-around-the-rosy with Templar that I've ever seen much less been a party to sort of defined the point at which this mission started to go a little sideways. Also felt that Maj. Parker needed to be slapped during the briefing, and we get another change of scenery here as well. It wasn't an improvement. Nonetheless a major Order installation goes down, and they can't have many left ... can they? The new squad we get is pretty cool though IMO. OOC: Also annoying was me having to redo this mission a fair bit due to my own stupidity, random technical issues, etc. Suffice it to say I'm glad to have this one in the rearview mirror. Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 11:00 on May 30, 2020 |
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May 29, 2020 19:01
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I think the sound is missing during the briefing? I'm pretty sure it is.
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May 29, 2020 23:44
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Thanks. I'm really starting to get ticked off about some of this nonsense (appreciate the heads-up though). I specifically checked that part of it multiple times while I was editing and I'm 100% certain there was sound there at the time. It just makes no sense why it would not be there after processing it. I don't mind technical hurdles, it just doesn't make any sense for it to up and disappear/go silent like that. *arglebargle*
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May 29, 2020 23:51
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Well, one way or another you have the youtube blackbox to deal with, you can't know for sure what happens once you put something through there.
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May 29, 2020 23:56
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Video removed while I get a fixed version going.
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May 30, 2020 00:21
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New upload ready, links changed to the corrected version.
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May 30, 2020 11:01
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Well, now for my comment about the actual game. I can't help but think that using bombers requires you to have complete recon to avoid AA or risk just suiciding them, having some SEAD planes to keep AA on their toes might have made them more useful. But I'm afraid it would require higher unit counts to handle that diversity and I'm not sure the game has it in itself, or its control scheme. Still, could have been a fighter consumable.
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May 30, 2020 11:52
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I definitely agree that they are highly niche. What jumps out to me is they'd be a lot more useful in a defensive role, but we're virtually always attacking. So really I just take them along for LP reasons, not because they are particularly useful. Optimally, having a group of fighters is about all that I think is 'worth it'.
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May 30, 2020 17:39
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Torpedo infantry are dangerous but I think you might be just a bit too careful  It felt like air units were maybe a late addition to the game - they're either blowing something up with impunity or getting shot out the sky immediately. The ground combat isn't exactly deep but there's terrain effects, mobility, line of sight, and armor facing to account for.
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Jun 4, 2020 02:12
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Kibayasu posted:Torpedo infantry are dangerous but I think you might be just a bit too careful It is ... possible.
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Jun 5, 2020 00:05
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Considering the lack of both saves and reinforcements, it's pretty hard to be too careful. Also they pack an obscene punch, but that might be hard mode being badly balanced.
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Jun 5, 2020 00:44
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FYI it's not mostly a difficulty thing there. Templar, like the AA guns etc., just dominate their niche. Except that with them, it's not so much a niche as 'we're really good at blowing up most of your combat force'.
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Jun 5, 2020 11:50
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Behind Enemy Lines (1:07:25) Every self-respecting RTS has an unrealistically suicidal late-game mission. This is Ground Control's. Starting with a limited force for the beginning of the mission, a lot of careful tedium and a nasty new surprise from the Order ensue. It's probably peak 'this is going to take a LONG time and you do not want to screw up' territory. I also amusingly nearly manage to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory at the end.
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Jun 6, 2020 17:11
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Definitely a little too scared of those templars.
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Jun 7, 2020 01:38
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I find that to be a bizarre reaction to this mission to be frank. There weren't that many templar and I spent a lot more time dealing with handling the drone carriers (which basically make templar look like a child with a toy sometimes and can wreck most of your battle line quickly).
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Jun 7, 2020 11:22
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Well, they caused some serious problem with your marines by getting you to keep your vehicles too far back. Kinda annoying in terms of battle plans that the infantry mortar doesn't seem to wipe them in one go.
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Jun 7, 2020 12:21
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I don't think you're being overcautious about the templars, but I pity the PBI because you're using them for the front line and having an overpowered tank line that pretty much never sees action. In this mission you mentioned having your heavy tanks 'at the front' but that ended up being so far behind the infantry line that you took heavy losses. I think there are many places where you could be using fighters/scouts for recon (if you send them way past the target they take very little AA damage), but I can see not using them since they take a fair amount of micro to keep them safe, and on long missions the chip damage means they aren't as useful near the end.
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Jun 8, 2020 18:01
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Counterpoint: I think there have been a number of situations where I've had to fight multiple Heavy Hoverdynes or what-have-you and the tank line has been needed. Besides, I think it's very Crayven thematically even if not. From my perspective, I took heavy losses on the marines because I foolishly had them try to help in the drone carrier fight when that wasn't necessary, then thought I had to time to retreat them instead of just remembering to use their anti-tank specials on the medium hoverdynes which would have allowed to survive just fine.
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Jun 8, 2020 19:03
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Interesting side note; if you watched the beginning of the mission, you'll recall the dropships landing at the order base. Here's the thing ... they are Crayven dropships. Don't ask me how/why, but I think there's a traitor in the Corporation. This observation came about by someone asking if they still show up if you knock out the comm station before going there (they do). Those attack aerodynes they send after you fairly early on? Those come down in an Order dropship. Base reinforcements in Crayven ones. Something's fishy here ...
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Jun 8, 2020 19:21
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