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Three things: Firstly, can an unlucky lightning strike destroy one of your buildings or kill one of your villagers? Secondly, I think I see cat domestication on the research sheet, too. Does the game actually simulate vermin for cats to hunt, or do they just passively slow food decay? Thirdly, considering the morale problems I'm mildly surprised you didn't build a second skull pole so two villagers can recover morale simultaneously.
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Apr 22, 2020 20:22
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PurpleXVI posted:Thirdly, considering the morale problems I'm mildly surprised you didn't build a second skull pole so two villagers can recover morale simultaneously. I believe SS said in the previous video that you can only have one of each type of spiritual building
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Apr 22, 2020 20:29
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Everyone is not necessarily related - I mentioned it one of the early videos but it's actually hotly debated how much people interacted and knew about that danger. Recent scholarship though is moving in the direction of the groups interacting more and over a wider range than was previously thought, and that therefore inbreeding is not as much of an issue. But, because of how this is going to play out, everyone will be related; they'll all be descended from the same woman (Amad I think, the one who started out as a child). So I could have called it Inbredia instead of Inception, but I didn't want to make that joke overtly. Seemed a bit … unserious. PurpleXVI posted:considering the morale problems I'm mildly surprised you didn't build a second skull pole so two villagers can recover morale simultaneously. I would have if it was useful. Each villager, at every type of spiritual/morale building, is limited in how much morale they can recover at once, and then there's a cooldown until they can use another building of the same type. To clear up Rarity's point, you can have as many of each type as you want, but because of the other limitations you need a larger population before more skull poles etc. are useful. The cooldown results in there never being much of a queue of people that want to use it and are eligible to do so since there's only a few villagers right now. Lightning strikes can indeed kill people. Buildings I don't think they can ever hit. I think you might be given plot armor in the first era or two, or else lightning deaths are just rarer than I think. I haven't done enough long games to see a real good balance of it, but it definitely is a semi-regular occurrence once you get a big enough population. There is no cat domestication. I can see why you would think so though. The one that probably looks like a cat isn't - it's an advance in what we can do with dogs, and will be coming fairly late in the Paleothic. It's also one that was not in the initial 1.0 version of the game, but was added later. Dogs are the only domesticated animal that you don't have to actively support with food. All of the others require a bit more work.
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Apr 22, 2020 21:38
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I'm pretty sure those fish aren't hung in pairs, but rather cut open on the dorsal side, gutted, and hung while still connected by their ventral side. You can see daylight through the gills of the fish in the foreground, and one of the background racks have the fish hanging in the other direction so you can see the insides.Rarity posted:I believe SS said in the previous video that you can only have one of each type of spiritual building You can have more than one, but each person can't take advantage of more than one of the same type within the cooldown period. If we're faced with a backlog of people trying to use the skull pole, then it would make sense to make more. I wasn't paying close attention, but I don't think there was a backlog.
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Apr 22, 2020 21:38
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General Revil posted:those fish aren't hung in pairs, but rather cut open on the dorsal side, gutted, and hung while still connected by their ventral side. You can see daylight through the gills of the fish in the foreground, and one of the background racks have the fish hanging in the other direction so you can see the insides. I stand corrected. Won't be the last time.
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Apr 22, 2020 21:39
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I'm surprised there's no cat domestication, haven't we had them around as part of our society for a pretty long time now, too? What's the timeline comparison for that, if set side by side with dogs?
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Apr 22, 2020 21:50
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm surprised there's no cat domestication, haven't we had them around as part of our society for a pretty long time now, too? What's the timeline comparison for that, if set side by side with dogs? I would expect that it's mostly a gameplay scope thing. Cats don't actually do much of anything that would affect anything gameplay-wise until farming is a thing, and even then they'd be a really abstract "grain decays slower" unless the developers actually put in rats and insects for them to hunt. That seems like a lot of work for not much benefit, so it's understandable that they aren't in the game. Dogs, Horses, Cows, and so on are much, much more significant in terms of their impact on the ability of ancient peoples to develop and grow.
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Apr 22, 2020 22:10
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm surprised there's no cat domestication[...] Who said we ever successfully domesticated cats? My house cat strongly disagrees with your ill-gotten assumptions. Earliest findings for tamed cats point around 9000 BC(?) in the Middle East. Apparently wildcats were attracted by early human agrarian settlements. Or more precise rodents like the house mouse found in the granaries. OutofSight fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Apr 23, 2020 |
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Apr 22, 2020 22:26
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PurpleXVI posted:I'm surprised there's no cat domestication, haven't we had them around as part of our society for a pretty long time now, too? What's the timeline comparison for that, if set side by side with dogs? Dogs are useful for a hunting/gathering society and the first evidence of domestication dates back about 15kya*, but cats only add value once you've got a pest problem from agricultural surplus and earliest evidence for a tamed** cat is from Cyprus ~9300 years bp, with true domestication generally agreed on at 7500 years bp. * genetic divergence from wild grey wolf populations has been established by DNA studies to ~40kya, so it's now believed that domestic dogs descend from an extinct subspecies of wolf. ** it's still debated just how much cats were really "domesticated" before they became rich people's breeding projects in the 19th century. The mutually beneficial relationship between farmers and cats led to some changes in behavior and temperament, but compared to the magnitude of changes that occurred in eg goats, cattle, dogs, etc cats are a very different story.
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Apr 22, 2020 22:56
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Just to add on to the good ideas others have had, I think a lot of it may also just be a 'Neolithic Crunch' thing. That's the most packed age in the game and for good reason, I'll probably have a stupid amount of  when we get there since within the scope of Dawn of Man I'd be hard pressed to not consider farming the single most important development by a large margin. There's already a bunch of other domestication going on there as well … I can see there being a game role for cats with reducing decay, lowering the chance of disease for crops which eventually becomes a thing, etc., but I also think it's very understandable why it's not there.
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Apr 23, 2020 00:40
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 The Circle of Life (23:19) The first infection and death come to the settlement of Inception. It was only a matter of time. But also there are positives; births, improved tools, and so on. Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 23:38 on Apr 27, 2020 |
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Apr 26, 2020 14:22
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And so one joins a number that shall never go down. How much of the settlement's food comes from hunting and how much from foraging? Going by what we know from modern hunter gatherers, they should be fond of taking care of plants that give food when they are in the area.
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Apr 26, 2020 20:55
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Right now it's probably somewhere around 40% hunting, 40% plants, 20% fishing (which you could put under hunting as well, just a different kind). Protein will become more important as we grow, not less - though not because of food directly. Every once in a while someone wants to try making a vegan settlement and it doesn't really work. Food-wise you can do it up to a point, though there's a lot of plants we can't harvest yet. The game really pushes you towards hunting in the early-game though, not through food but through the skins. You can't make a shelter out of, say, reeds and sticks and stones. Clothes require skins as well. So by the time you've hunted everything you need for those resources, you're already not going to have a primarily herbalistic society. The other factor is dehydrating, which is only a thing for meat. Berries/fruits are the best early-game plant source, and you can't make them last more than one season. Nuts last two but are more rare. Even with inside storage increasing that by 50%, you're still basically required to eat meat at least half of the year. This whole balance is definitely an area where some historical criticism is warranted.
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Apr 27, 2020 02:53
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Goodbye to the patriarch. The black borders are back, and I see what's going on. The first and most recent video are 1440p, but the content is only 1080p, hence the borders. The other three videos have the content and the video both at 1080p, hence no borders.
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Apr 27, 2020 05:46
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Thanks for that - I'm going to try and re-process this last one and I'll upload a replacement if that fixes it, but … I don't even have a setting for 1440p in the program I use for this so I don't think that's what is happening. I'm using the same 1080p preset for all of them, so it doesn't make any sense that it would work properly sometimes but not the other times.
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Apr 27, 2020 11:30
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Ok so mystery solved; problem was the aspect ratio. It wasn't always getting set back to 16:9 if I did a 4:3 video before this - Ground Control is 4:3 so I need to remember to change it and on the bordered ones I apparently didn't. I've deleted the last update and will have a new one up without the borders later today.
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Apr 27, 2020 12:07
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'Fixed' video now up.
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Apr 27, 2020 23:38
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I'm following this with interest. It's nice to see things slowly improve for the people of Inception, with enough food, shelter, warm clothing, and basic religious needs to go around. Life still has plenty difficult and dangerous, and their existence is the hardscrabble of the Paleolithic, but even so... it's good to see some progress and prosperity, as far as it's possible.
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Apr 28, 2020 08:29
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Are there no environment options other than Eurasian forested hills with snowy winters? Seems like it'd be interesting to see how the location can affect the growth of the settlement.
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Apr 28, 2020 22:48
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nweismuller posted:Life still has plenty difficult and dangerous, and their existence is the hardscrabble of the Paleolithic, but even so... it's good to see some progress and prosperity, as far as it's possible. Thanks for following! It is indeed step by incremental step here, but progress still gives that dopamine hit. *addict sigh* Kangra posted:Are there no environment options other than Eurasian forested hills with snowy winters? There's several stock environment options, but they are basically within that box. Some are flatter than others, some have more or less resources, but there aren't any that are say in a desert or in Antarctica. Some of that is really necessary for the historical path - the first empire did arise in Mesopotamia and it wasn't an accident that it did - and some is probably there for guardrails to make the advances in the game sensible. I.e., it's hard to have a Neolithic Revolution in the Sahara  . Don't know exactly how far out of the box you were thinking, but there are mods that make the land almost totally flat; one of the most popular challenge mods is EverWinter, which basically just makes the winter much longer and harsher so that it's a lot more difficult to support and sustain your population and more of a survivalist game.
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Apr 29, 2020 01:51
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There's some environmental options, but they seem rather limited. There's a mod that adds some more realism, but it's still working withing those limits. https://www.nexusmods.com/dawnofman/mods/12
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Apr 30, 2020 00:20
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Tanning & Growing (20:05) This went up yesterday, but my internet wouldn't cooperate. Anyway, we get a few more advances in and start accelerating through the years more. A growth spurt happens, and Inception is now taking on more dangerous hunting tasks with the help of our canine friends. By the end of this episode, we've reached the late Paleolithic and are looking forward to advancing beyond that era soon.
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May 3, 2020 21:22
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I note that they haven't mastered slings yet, so here's a cheat sheet for the audience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzDMCVdPwnE And since it starts with slings and not those spear propeller things I can't quite recall the English name for, here's another tool they should learn how to use, but not in English. https://www.hominides.com/html/dossiers/propulseur.php (Also I can't help but feel odd at the prospect of mining with flint, that has to suck completely. Imagine trying to dig into harder rocks with one.)
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May 3, 2020 22:28
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The tool you're thinking of is called a spear thrower or atlatl
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May 3, 2020 22:47
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I remembered atlatl, but only alt, and not that the syllable was doubled, google was unhelpful, thanks. A further version of them is the Gaul tragula / tragule, which is used for hunting large, hairless monkeys.
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May 3, 2020 22:52
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Let all the animals live in fear of our vicious DOGES OF WAR 
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May 3, 2020 23:10
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Leather clothing! Another step forward for our quality of life! And the necessary economic infrastructure to support that gain in quality being supported by flint tools. And all the stone we've gained should prove useful in future construction; stone isn't nearly so scarce now that we can mine it up in large quantities. Pity we aren't doing trade- and there's evidence of surprisingly early long-distance trade networks- given that flint in the region gets depleted, but hopefully the flint will last us long enough to get us what we need later.
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May 4, 2020 00:44
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One elderly man, four adult women, all pregnant. Do you have to invent soap before you invent the soap opera?
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May 4, 2020 01:57
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Soap is cooked fat and ashes. Although they don't have pots to cook it yet. A good sand scrub opera perhaps? Get your whole rear end in the stream, grab a few handfuls, scrub until satisfied and then dry yourself dancing in the wind near the skin dryers? I didn't even look where pottery appears in the tech tree. It's pre-neolithic, fired pottery is probably a consequence of mastering fire and noticing the effects and, well, there's always non fired pottery.
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May 4, 2020 02:12
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Doge protecc, He also attacc. On the topic of tanning, one possibility is that someone noticed that fats repel water. By rubbing hides with animal fat, they could achieve a degree of water resistance. They would have also discovered that this causes hides to last longer before getting moldy. During times of plenty, you could experiment with rubbing other things on spare hides and seeing how well it worked. Speaking of pregnancies. Aside from baby-making, are there any other bits of sexual dimorphism in this game?
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May 4, 2020 03:15
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General Revil posted:Doge protecc, but more than that he lion snacc
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May 4, 2020 03:46
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SIGSEGV posted:(Also I can't help but feel odd at the prospect of mining with flint, that has to suck completely. Imagine trying to dig into harder rocks with one.) Truth. It's been said by more knowledgeable people than me that perhaps it wasn't the best choice to represent 'a stone soft enough to shape, but hard enough to use'. Also thanks for the sling video link, I'm going to shamelessly reference that in the next episode as if I actually looked it up. Unfortunately, as we'll see, slings are sort of the armpit of Paleolithic techs in Dawn of Man. Objectively, they're probably worse than useless. As for pottery, it plays a starring role as the first gatekeeper tech, so we'll be seeing it soon. It doesn't actually do that much, but you can't go Mesolithic without it. Also, we don't need pots to cook things. We just throw them on the hearth and call it a day. Lemniscate Blue posted:Do you have to invent soap before you invent the soap opera? Sadly a question that will go unanswered here. nweismuller posted:Pity we aren't doing trade- and there's evidence of surprisingly early long-distance trade networks- given that flint in the region gets depleted, but hopefully the flint will last us long enough to get us what we need later. I should be using bone (renewable to a degree, which flint isn't) more than I have been and will be moving in that direction. I don't expect it to be a problem long-term, but as the population grows ... who knows. You're totally right on the trade, it's a nod to game pacing but it's definitely a thing that has surprised modern scholars studying this period. Rarity posted:fear of our vicious DOGES OF WAR I wasn't going to go quite that far … but since you did, I guess we're covered. General Revil posted:Aside from baby-making, are there any other bits of sexual dimorphism in this game? I'm 95%+ sure there are none. Combat, labor, inventory capacity, etc. are all identical. It is a thing that for domesticated animals you want more females than males, but that again is purely a breeding issue. Animals are identical in terms of their health, speed, etc. for the male/female split. Strategic Sage fucked around with this message at 21:33 on May 4, 2020 |
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May 4, 2020 21:02
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The explanation I always heard for the origin of tanning is that people experimented with the water that pooled in oak stumps, whether they were trying to use it for dye or just happened to notice strange properties to things that got left there too long. There isn't as much tannin in the inner wood as in the bark, but the water draws it out and turns reddish-brown, which might have provoked curiosity.
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May 4, 2020 21:15
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Just picked this up myself, I appreciate games covering the little-seen epochs of history. Good luck on your grander project!
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May 5, 2020 01:05
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Zurai posted:The explanation I always heard for the origin of tanning is that people experimented with the water that pooled in oak stumps, whether they were trying to use it for dye or just happened to notice strange properties to things that got left there too long. That's probably more logical than anything else I've heard, interesting. sniper4625 posted:Just picked this up myself, I appreciate games covering the little-seen epochs of history. Good luck on your grander project! Excellent, I hope you enjoy it.
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May 6, 2020 12:12
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Mesolithic Matters (20:40) We say goodbye to the Old Stone Age. Middle Stone Age sounds so much more progressive. A somewhat extended discussion of Pottery and the whole gatekeeper-tech idea, population continues to grow though the demographics got troublesome for a while, a bunch of years pass, and similar things. Now we are in a new epoch with a raft of new advances to consider in our toybox.
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May 7, 2020 22:13
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A long slow stretch, but a village that has managed to secure its place for now- even if hunting and gathering is harder-pressed to supply the current population's needs. Hopefully new innovations will help us keep up with the curve of the challenges presented us, and reduce the odds we suffer catastrophic results from a bunch of lions saying hello. I agree making it so pottery doesn't involve... making pots is a little odd. I'd think it'd be useful in general for stable-ish storage of various things, not just collecting water. The tech description mentioned something about wells?
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May 8, 2020 01:13
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You know, you talked of cave drawing not being mobile, and that's true, but it allows me to shove in a complaint about all those representation of prehistory. Those people, in all those pictures, have decorated cave walls but none of them has taken the time to grab some ochre and smear it in a pretty pattern on their cave lion loincloth that they can't have cut into a better shape and then sewn into a better shape with some variant of tanned ligament or bark string.
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May 8, 2020 01:40
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How long did it actually take to grind up to Pottery? Cause that seemed like it would be tedious as hell to run through.
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May 8, 2020 06:16
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nweismuller posted:The tech description mentioned something about wells? The tooltips aren't particularly good about distinguishing between what something does now (we can gather water) and what it is a prerequisite for (getting Well Digging in the next era). Digging wells will come, and we need pottery to do it, but we can't do it yet. SIGSEGV posted:Those people, in all those pictures, have decorated cave walls but none of them has taken the time to grab some ochre and smear it in a pretty pattern on their cave lion loincloth that they can't have cut into a better shape and then sewn into a better shape with some variant of tanned ligament or bark string. Good point - a great many caricatures of history are based on stereotypes like these. Then we learn new things … but it's so much effort to correct the misconceptions, and who's got time for that? Rarity posted:How long did it actually take to grind up to Pottery? Cause that seemed like it would be tedious as hell to run through. Roughly four years of gametime. Not all that long - though longer than it would be on default settings of course. The tedium of time passing is now going to be gradually replaced by the different-flavored tedium of the hunting minigame, as the growing population requires more and more of the resources that can only be acquired from the wildlife.
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May 8, 2020 19:24
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