Old World: Civ 4 and CK2 had a baby (Opinion of you: Cautious)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Old World: Civ 4 and CK2 had a baby (Opinion of you: Cautious)

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Bogart: Apr 12, 2010; by VideoGames

This game's much better than Humankind, and I really wanted to like Humankind.

Maybe an Endless Legend 2 will come out.

# ? Sep 5, 2022 23:39

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# ? May 4, 2024 21:56

twistedmentat: Nov 21, 2003; Its my party
and I'll die if
I want to

I did most of the tutorials, after failing the first "how to rule your empire" tutorial because i didn't know that you actually had a stockpile of resources rather than just having access to it, i jumped into a real game with Egypt.

Having a dynasty to rule the empire rather than just being Napoleon the whole time is a great addition. My first ruler died, so her jerkass half brother became king because my inheritance was on eldest member of the dynasty, and he promtly died because he was only a few years younger than her, then my characters son becomes king and on and on and its great.

Also events shape what you do to. The limited scope doesn't feel that limited, though I wish there were a few more civs in the game. I can imagine they could could turn some of the tribes into proper empires like the Gauls or the Danes at some point.

# ? Sep 9, 2022 08:12

THS2: Oct 2, 2021

keeping it roughly mediterranean / middle east i think the game has reached the limit of civilizations that thematically make sense. you could probably do judea but thats about it

# ? Sep 21, 2022 00:27

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

THS2 posted:

keeping it roughly mediterranean / middle east i think the game has reached the limit of civilizations that thematically make sense. you could probably do judea but thats about it

Nubia.

# ? Sep 21, 2022 00:40

Archduke Frantz Fanon: Sep 7, 2004

probably get away with nubia, axum, nabetea. Maybe sumeria? Just straight up make gilgamesh the first leader.

# ? Sep 21, 2022 00:41

Don Pigeon: Oct 29, 2005; Great pigeons are not born great. They grow great by eating lots of bread crumbs.

Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:

probably get away with nubia, axum, nabetea. Maybe sumeria? Just straight up make gilgamesh the first leader.

The Mitanni also.

# ? Sep 21, 2022 06:12

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

THS2 posted:

keeping it roughly mediterranean / middle east i think the game has reached the limit of civilizations that thematically make sense. you could probably do judea but thats about it

They've mentioned wanting to do India, which is on the other side of Persia.

I think the natural next step for them would be a big Asian expansion, India to China.

# ? Sep 21, 2022 14:15

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Some content updates:

A complete cloud duel narrated by both myself and fluffybunny. It pretty cool to see the game unfold from both player's perspectives. Pretty interesting / epic game as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRW2y8-9PRc

Since narrating every turn is a lot of work, tried a different format with this cloud duel with Frederik. Each of us provides situation reports every 10 years about what's changed, how the game is going and what we think the other person is up to. Be sure to check out the epic final attack turn (a special one-off battle report). We then spent almost 4 hours talking about the game and various systems... (basically an Old World mega podcast).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl7GqPOys74

And, since my nerd heart would be incomplete without updating my reference spreadsheet, three new tabs for your grognardy pleasure:

👑👪🎓 Nations, Families, and Archetype Tendencies

This tab easily shows which archetypes are available for which families for each nation -- and importantly, which archetypes have no easy source for each nation. This is a subtle but important aspect of Old World.

Every family has Archetype Tendencies. If not influenced by the player (e.g. through heir education; see Jobs tab), families will tend to have characters of these archetypes.
These tendencies are 10x as likely for one or two archetypes and 5x as likely for two archetypes.
For example, the Landowner family is 10x as likely to get Builders. That means you'll often see Landowner Builders when you have a Landowner family.
This fits in with nations in that not every nation has access to every family -- so, as Persia, for example, you'll rarely see Builders since none of your possible families have tendencies for them.
Or, as Egypt, if you don't take Riders, you won't have many characters that can serve as Agents, since you won't have many Schemer or Hero characters.
As you think about your governors, generals, and the composition of your council, it's important to keep these family archetype tendencies in mind.
Cells in dark gray have none of the four families for that nation having an archetype tendency for that archetype.
Keep in mind you can have 3 of the four families so if there's only a single family for that archetype for your nation, and you don't have that family... you rarely see that archetype.

⚔️ Unit Damage & Counters

Row units attack column units and do the damage listed in the cell.
For example, a Pikeman attacking a Cataphract does 10 damage.
But a Cataphract attacking a Pikeman only does 3 damage.
Note this doesn't account for
Promotions, Family Bonuses, Territory Bonuses
Melee Horse's +25% Flat Terrain Bonus or any Terrain effects
Unlimbered Units' Defensive Penalty
But, as a general rule of thumb, should be useful.
If there's anything inaccurate let me know -- I did some hacky IF statement and regexp magic to generate this, so I might have gotten something wrong!

⚔️ Unit Counters at-a-glance

A quick reference version of the above -- if you're facing X, what should you (ideally) have to respond with?

..

Continuing to be in love with all the interlocking systems this game has.

alcaras fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 1, 2022

# ? Oct 1, 2022 17:30

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Finally managed to work my way up to the Great. I've been playing with completely random map settings except for size. Are there maps that people find particularly enjoyable or balanced? I find that I do much better whenever I'm on a more arid map with lots of access to high production quarry tiles than anything else, but maybe that's based on my ability to adapt to my start. I'm still figuring out how to adapt my tech progression and build priority, like what I should be doing with cleric cities for example.

Also thanks for all the work you put into your videos and spreadsheet alcaras, it's been really helpful to watch someone make decisions about a turn and talk about overall goals, even though I don't play multiplayer (yet?).

# ? Oct 24, 2022 16:37

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

New DLC, focused on religion:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2261870/Old_World__The_Sacred_and_The_Profane/

quote:

Old World - The Sacred and The Profane adds a touch of religious fervor to your play with a wealth of new content that explores how religion impacted the fortunes of ancient empires. Experience over 350 new events, recruit new historical characters, and deal with the demands of the clergy as you try and appease the various faiths that exist within your empire. Be warned, if a religion disapproves of your rule, it can lead to dissent, riots, or worse.

Old World - The Sacred and The Profane includes:

350+ new events - from small rituals and everyday belief, to the power struggles of state religions and the emergence of world religions, you�ll need to keep your wits about you to navigate the complex world of ancient worship.

Religious clergy - these new characters can join your court, and come with their own missions and projects. Their benefits depend on how well their religion likes you. Existing characters can be inducted into the clergy through a mission by the state religion's leader.

Over 10 new character traits - some new core traits, as well as event-related additions, and traits unique to Clergy characters.

Six new historical characters:

Mani, the founder on Manichaeism
Paul, fiery Christian convert and early Bishop
Josephus, Jewish rebel, general and scholar
Ostanes, one of the rumored great magic users
Sappho, Greek poetess
Hypatia, Alexandrian scientist and philosopher

Religious dissent mechanics - Negative religious opinion can lead to dissent in cities with the religion, which will have consequences and won�t be easy to remove.

Over 10 new �cult� city projects - There are new cult improvements, added by events, as well as improvements for existing Shrines. Each has a powerful, unique, effect.

This DLC pack features a lot of 'what ifs', reflecting a time where many religions were young and the empires of known world were forced to reckon with competing faiths old and new.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 06:09

Ogdred Weary: Jul 1, 2007; A is for Amy who fell down the stairs

And in four days only?! I'm fully on board

# ? Jan 12, 2023 08:25

Anno: May 10, 2017; I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

Awesome.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 14:06

Archduke Frantz Fanon: Sep 7, 2004

hell yeah. religion was definitely one of the more hollow systems so im excited to see it get love

# ? Jan 12, 2023 15:21

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

Very interested, had no idea DLC was coming. Actually been on a kick of playing again recently and really enjoying it.

# ? Jan 12, 2023 19:20

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Made a quick guide to the new mechanics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arDzJVrHemU

quote:

TL;DR:

Clergy
- Clergy are characters that show up in your court.
- To induct someone into the clergy, select your state religion head and choose Induct into Clergy
- Induct into Clergy only shows up if you have valid characters available to induct
- It costs 100 civics and 2 orders and takes 2 years to induct someone into the Clergy
- Clergy are excluded from succession and can't be a courtier
- Clergy cost money upkeep, like other members of your court
- If you induct a family head into Clergy, they'll leave being Family Head the turn after they're inducted
- Clergy have a 25% bonus chance to become religion head
- You get +40 Opinion with Religion per Clergy member
- (Remember state religion benefits to family opinion doesn't go beyond +200)

Religious Dissent
- If you have negative opinion with a world (not pagan) religion, you can get religious dissent in a city
- Events can also give you religious dissent in a city
- Religious dissent shows up in the Projects view of a city
- Religious dissent causes a chance for rebels to spawn

- You can remove religious dissent in two ways
- With a governor, you can pay 100 training to run the Suppress Dissent city project for 1 year (it will add discontent to your city)
- This is your only option for non-state religious dissent
- For state religion dissent, you can run the city project or you can use the "Quell Religious Dissent" mission available on a clergy member (100 civics and 2 orders, takes 1 year)

Cults
- Cults are like shrines, except you don't build them and get them from event
- They have some pretty strong bonuses
- They also have a chance to trigger negative events

# ? Jan 17, 2023 13:27

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

This game has a very interesting and varied sound track. How can I access it? There is absolutely nothing about locating it on the internet, the only search results you get are from the 12 tracks that Christopher Tin composed for it. Not the thousand other music tracks that play in the game.

# ? Jan 18, 2023 11:19

Megazver: Jan 13, 2006

This, maybe?

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7cerLlpd4cMCo66AlbAk8v

# ? Jan 18, 2023 11:24

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

Megazver posted:

This, maybe?

https://open.spotify.com/playlist/7cerLlpd4cMCo66AlbAk8v

That looks like it, most of it at least. There's one song that has Allah in its name that I can't seem to find anywhere, it's pretty upbeat.

Node fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Jan 19, 2023

# ? Jan 19, 2023 01:08

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Super insightful from Soren Johnson about Old World:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXH9_d_pDa4

# ? Jan 20, 2023 04:23

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

How does your courts opinion of you actually help or hinder?

Is it normal to have way more food than other resources?

# ? Feb 5, 2023 10:24

Lichtenstein: May 31, 2012; It'll make sense, eventually.

Baron Porkface posted:

How does your courts opinion of you actually help or hinder?

More directly, it impacts the yields from the stats. Oligarchs and religion leaders extend the badness to their share of the world. More indirectly, it's a big factor in event calculations - people who dislike you can start plotting to kill you, usurp your successor and generally be a nuisance, while people who like you might prove useful and take initiative on some matters via events.

quote:

Is it normal to have way more food than other resources?

Yeah, it's on a curve of sorts. After you're past the initial colonization rush it sort of becomes an upkeep resource with no real sinks - and it'll take a while for that upkeep to crawl back to similar expenditure levels. It'll come, but it's a matter of a bunch of developed cities filled with specialists.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 11:35

Promontory: Apr 6, 2011

Someone should change the thread title's "cautious" to "pleased". This is great.

I took a long time going through the tutorials, but now in my first "real" game I'm feeling like all of the systems are clicking into place and the hours are flying by. Much like enemy units going through holes in my lines :argh:

I'm liking the interplay between characters and traditional 4x. I had a diplomat king and wanted to isolate Assyria. I had the king convert to Zoroastrianism and made it the state religion, creating a power block with nearby coreligionists that cut Assyria to size. The war and the king are long gone but the countryside is still dotted with Zoroastrian temples and monasteries. Feels like a story unfolding.

# ? Feb 8, 2023 20:41

Anno: May 10, 2017; I'm going to drown! For no reason at all!

Yeah I�ve been back into the game with the most recent DLC and was reminded again how tightly and intricately it�s all designed. Just a pleasure.

Also alcaras�s frequent MP uploads are keeping me sane in a slow work week so thanks for that

# ? Feb 8, 2023 20:51

victrix: Oct 30, 2007

I realized the character stuff was a net negative for me because I'm just absolute trash at maintaining a mental map of everyone's relationships, which leaves me feeling overwhelmed like I'm making decisions in the dark or I have to look up a web of character connections every time I want to change something.

The core 4x stuff is brilliant and has some really cool ideas, but the rest is probably why I don't play CK to begin with :v:

# ? Feb 8, 2023 21:02

Node: May 20, 2001; KICKED IN THE COOTER; Taco Defender

It's easier to struggle with food on arid map types. Most map generation has tons of temperate and lush tiles so food is usually never a problem.

# ? Feb 8, 2023 21:21

ilitarist: Apr 26, 2016; illiterate and militarist

victrix posted:

I realized the character stuff was a net negative for me because I'm just absolute trash at maintaining a mental map of everyone's relationships, which leaves me feeling overwhelmed like I'm making decisions in the dark or I have to look up a web of character connections every time I want to change something.

The core 4x stuff is brilliant and has some really cool ideas, but the rest is probably why I don't play CK to begin with

You probably know this already, but devs were afraid this will be the case for many players and so they left an option to remove characters, family and events. It's supposed to be for multiplayer, but I imagine it should be available for single-player. It would probably mean a much lighter game, as without events you probably have no diplomacy at all, but maybe it will work for you.

# ? Feb 9, 2023 10:58

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

Is the "declare war on 1 of 2 rivals" event the only event where you can't knuckle under to avoid war?

# ? Feb 10, 2023 05:20

LLSix: Jan 20, 2010; The real power behind countless overlords

Baron Porkface posted:

Is the "declare war on 1 of 2 rivals" event the only event where you can't knuckle under to avoid war?

I remember the AI declared war on me at least once.

# ? Feb 11, 2023 04:16

Baron Porkface: Jan 22, 2007

Does the Trojan Horse actually result in city loss?

# ? Feb 15, 2023 11:02

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

On the point of interlocking systems that are well designed, here's a Clerics / Orator opening (taught to me by Frederik) that I've been using lately. Works well in MP and competitive mode, but functional in Single Player as well:

Religion applies to characters, families, and cities. Characters can follow a religion, and families can follow a religion as well, and cities have (potentially multiple) religions present
As a leader, you can only convert people to your religion if you have Metaphysics
But the Religious Head can convert people to their religion at any time, so long as they�re Pleased (+100 opinion) with you
A state religion gives +40 opinion
Being a coreligionist gives +20 opinion
Influence missions give +40 opinion
Clerics, of course, found a world religion when they found their family seat � they�ll also likely convert to that religion as a family
Then, for the price of one influence mission, you can have your religious head get to Pleased (+100 opinion)
Then, you can ask them to convert other family heads to their religion (costing 75 civics a pop, since it�s discounted by 25% from its �normal� cost of 100 because they�re pleased)
These family heads will eventually cause their families to convert to that religion, because family heads count double in the calculation for what religion a family is
And of course there are no other religions around so there�s no competition, it�s just a matter of time

Ok, that�s nice and all, but why would you want to spend 200 gold (on an influence mission to your religious head) and 550 civics (on two convert religion missions (150 civics in total) for your religious head to your two other families and designating a state religion (400 civics))? This is where the Orator comes in:

Orators get additional orders per friendly family (i.e. +200 opinion)
If families have a religion, they gain up to +200 opinion from that religion (so if a Religion is at +300 with you, +200 goes to that family)
Orators also get +40 opinion with every religion
In other words, that 200 gold and 550 civics gets you all your families to Friendly. And all your families at Friendly means you get 1 order (just nerfed from 2 orders) per city of that family � even if the city doesn�t follow the religion.

Toss in Monotheism (the tech for which, of course, you get for free as Clerics) for 400 more civics (or 200 if you have Pyramids) and you get another 1 order for every city of that family that does follow the religion.

Toss in some more civics (200 for a tier 1 Theology for +5% spread and 400 for Revelation, the Tier 2 theology that increases spread by +25%) to raise the base spread chase. Since you�re founding your religion on Turn 1, you should be able to get it to spread to all your cities pretty quickly.

And the last puzzle piece:

Orators produce more civics than any other archetype (their base stats are 4 cha, -1 disc)
Orators also recruit mercs using legitimacy
This gives you something to do with all those orders � you can scout around and recruit mercs (ideally tribal mercs, since they�re upgradable to 6 STR, but barbs will do in a punch (only upgradeable to 4 str))
Then you delay building military units, sort of like Carthage does, and use your mercs to clear camps (perhaps upgrading them with all the training you�re getting from not using your training to build units)
Since you don�t need to build early game military units (thanks mercs!) you can have your cities focus on getting your economy up ASAP and to settle your sites

The cherry on top:

Your cleric cities also get 100% yields from Monasteries (and Temples and Cathedrals, if you ever get around to building those). So that�s 4 science for a Cleric Monastery � a nice early game Science boost.

Whew!

Isn�t that a beautiful strategy of interlocking pieces?

Just started uploading a narrated cloud duel where I open with that strategy and it lets me expand very rapidly. Both Frederik and I narrate each of our turns using undo-redo and try to explain our reasoning:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUhNKa2jBT2FGwb5HFRFRZ-UytWohrSJe

And, at the risk of plugging my own content, this game vs. nolegs (just finished posting all the parts) was one of the most epic and memorable ones I've played in Old World -- naval combat, back and forth, treachery:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUhNKa2jBT2Gt3weMQZIMhk2KtIYb5NTL

If you have time to watch one part of that epic game, check out Part 8.

alcaras fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Feb 20, 2023

# ? Feb 16, 2023 13:46

Corbeau: Sep 13, 2010; Jack of All Trades

Do cloud (effectively PBEM) games still require everyone to be online at the same time to start?

# ? Feb 16, 2023 16:38

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Corbeau posted:

Do cloud (effectively PBEM) games still require everyone to be online at the same time to start?

Nope, they never have if everyone is on the same store (Steam / Epic / GoG). And, recently, there's now a way to start them via cloud now, it's a bit finagley and not well documented, but it is possible.

Here's how:
First, you need the cloud ID for each player. You can find it here:
https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/2816-BE67-5B69-0FEC
https://www.epicgames.com/help/en-U...-a5720265298075
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/how_to_find_galaxy_id

Next, you need to edit GameOptionsSave.xml and change this line:

code:

<allowOnlineIDAsUsername>false</allowOnlineIDAsUsername>

code:

<allowOnlineIDAsUsername>true</allowOnlineIDAsUsername>

Then you can just put the cloud ID in the field where you put username normally for a cloud game and you're all set!

# ? Feb 17, 2023 01:29

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

FilthyRobot streamed a bunch of single player Old World this weekend:
https://twitch.tv/videos/1740826183
https://twitch.tv/videos/1741859258
https://twitch.tv/videos/1742877651

The last game is pretty memorable -- he spawned between two nations that had 8 and 10 cities each o.O

# ? Feb 20, 2023 01:08

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

There's a new feature in this patch lets you mark improvements on the map.

Hover over the tile you'd like to mark, hold down alt, press left click but don't let go. This will give you a wheel. Move your mouse over the down arrow and let go. You'll get a pop-up with a dropdown. Select your improvement, click submit, and it'll show up on the map!

You can use this to plan out city layouts to maximize adjacency bonuses, keep track of where to put important buildings or wonders, or simply play SimCity and plan out your city layout right from the start of the game.

Here's a quick (<3 minute) video showing it off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHSwBvbhL9c

# ? Mar 30, 2023 21:54

Trivia: Feb 8, 2006; I'm an obtuse man,
so I'll try to be oblique.

Nice! I was just thinking about how much I wanted this feature.

I'm slowly making my way through the tutorial scenarios. The game is quite different from civ, but I gotta say I welcome all the changes. My faith in Soren has not been misplaced; the guy is a great designer.

# ? Mar 31, 2023 00:17

Gorman Thomas: Jul 24, 2007

I'm reading patch notes for the first time in a long time, love this game.

# ? Apr 1, 2023 05:10

alcaras: Oct 3, 2013; noli timere

Just posted the first in a series of videos -- a 6 player FFA, with all my turns narrated, and check-ins/situation reports every 10 turns from all players -- makes for a unique viewing experience as you get to hear from all the players in the FFA!

Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLUhNKa2jBT2GUkTh9DIte3zcuN9i03HHA

# ? May 14, 2023 16:58

Elias_Maluco: Aug 23, 2007; I need to sleep

Very late, but I finally got this game

I really liked a lot of it: unstacked cities with builders responsible for .. building all buildings. It feels weird at first but works great; units that can move a lot, which makes war a lot more dynamic; global food, resources that�s matters. The city building part specially is very good and fun

But, the CK-lite layer atop of the 4X dont really work so well, imo. Its something I always though "oh this would be perfect" but I found that in practice it feels like we are playing 2 different games atop each other, clumsy connected, and the ck-lite only distracts and gets in the way of a good 4X. Also makes leaders not so relevant (they will die in a few turns anyway), and they cant be unique and have special powers like in civ 5/6, which helps a lot to make the game more replayable

The UI is also kinda bad and if often hard to find basic information you need, like where/whats needed to build something. On this, Civ 6 is aeons better

Diplomacy and spying seems needlessly complex and the payoffs usually is kinda meh, I ended up almost forgetting those things existed completely and barely using them

But the worst is: why so short? I played 2 games, in both I completed the tech tree way before a winner was decided. But after that I just could not convince myself to keep going, cause the game becomes very repetitive and samey with nothing new coming, no progress going on

All in all, I found it a game with some really good ideas and also some that don�t work so well. But specially, feels too short for a game of this genre

I would love to see they try again on a sequel, since it looks like no more content its coming

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Jul 29, 2023

# ? Jul 29, 2023 14:00

ilitarist: Apr 26, 2016; illiterate and militarist

It looks to me like plenty of content is coming judging by it's actively updated.

Also you can tweak the experience by enabling 2 turns per year - the only thing is changes is double the lifespans - or turning off all the events and characters completely.

# ? Jul 29, 2023 14:50

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# ? May 4, 2024 21:56

Elias_Maluco: Aug 23, 2007; I need to sleep

Well that�s great, I was under the impression that the game was kinda abandoned by now

And that would also make the tech tree last longer, I suppose?

I saw the option of turning the whole ck layer off completely but it seems it would leave a big hole in the gameplay

The main problem I had with the game is how early the tech tree ends, which why I only played 2 games and didint feel like giving it another go (cause it�s seems like it would be the same game again, and the same disappointment of feeling like the game is done just when it was feeling like early game was over)

Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jul 29, 2023

# ? Jul 29, 2023 14:53

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Old World: Civ 4 and CK2 had a baby (Opinion of you: Cautious)

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