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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

hyphz posted:

If I hedge or evade the question, the idea of a simulated and defined fiction world instantly shatters, because I have just admitted that the world has no defined distances and it's literally impossible for our brains to visualise the look or interactions in a world like that.

I think I found one of the problems you and/or your group has.

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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

In the same vein, in the game of this forum, it doesn't matter whether hyphz is neurologically atypical, a non-native speaker, arguing in bad faith, encountering a severe mental block, or a jerk/troll. Forums user hyphz isn't going to read the book or understand AW through internet posts.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

hyphz posted:

I can understand that, but it's a kind of different issue.

Here for example, the players decided to break into the manor through the sewer. The module did not expect that and therefore I am confident in saying that the manor guards did not expect that either, and therefore things were a bit disorganised as you would expect.

But what if it was improvised? First, I have to decide if it was unexpected or not. This would probably be OK in this case, but not in every case - the obvious case being robbing a bank in a modern game. (Do you know what the security holes that would allow a bank to be robbed are?)

Now, I have to know how that unexpectedness will affect what happens. To do that, I have to decide what they did expect, and then what they would have done about it. And then I have to do what I did with the module, which is to decide how the unexpected events are going to change it.

It might seem unnecessary to go through that process, but the problem is that if I don't, then a) it'll be much harder to describe what's actually going on inside the manor with a reaction to an unexpected approach, and b) I have no way of knowing that the player's unexpected approach has actually changed anything, like it should. If I just say "well, hey, there'd still be guards right" then I would have just been saying that if they'd charged the front door. If I want to be sure that the players can change the world I have to know what they are changing it from.

You don't have to do any of those things.

If the module gives you a "default" and an "on alert" choice for the guards, and the players choose some alternate way in that's remotely plausible, let them do it, and give them one challenge on the way -- a combat, an obstacle, whatever. You've seen movies/read books where people sneak into something via tunnels or sewers, what problems do they have? Give the players one of those. If they succeed, the guards are default. If they fail, the guards are on alert. You don't need to change the guards from default to "on alert" until the players fail something. If the module doesn't give an "on alert" status, assume all combatants within plausible distance will congregate at the source of the action, or retreat to the thing they are most supposed to protect; they will go on alert when the players fail something that would alert them.

If you read the paragraph I just wrote carefully and think "That doesn't make sense, I can't do that! How can my players and I know what really happened if I don't procedurally generate a world-state for the manor using principles devised in advance" then really, we should just stop trying to "help" you, because advice like the stuff I just typed cannot and will not help you, and everyone's just gonna get frustrated again. Rather than reading our advice here, you might be better served spending some time coming up with some templates for bad-guy AI in whatever game you play, with some flowcharts or tables for you to follow. Like, "If not on alert and sound comes from a Priority 2 area within 60 feet, go on alert" sort of things. Do one for dumb critters, one for intelligent but somewhat apathetic creatures, and one for very serious, watchful creatures. More variations might spring to mind but start there, and keep it as simple as you can so you can come up with "what happened" quickly in play. You would decide in advance how smart creatures in the module were, and what areas of the map they would care about.

When I read your posts, that is what I am inferring you and your players gravitate toward. For whatever reason, improvisation of any kind may not be for you or your group.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Serf posted:

that hasn't been my experience at all. some people definitely like to get in character in the theatrical way and do the voice and roleplay out the big conversations and that's fine and good imo. but other people are less inclined to do that and it works fine too. i gm for people at different ends of this thing in the same group and we all pretty much do our own thing. as a gm i rarely do a voice for characters. i might try an affect or inflection, but i usually return to what i know: savannah gentleman and redneck working man. no one has complained about it. i think it just takes some trust and understanding from everyone involved to find the right balance, like what conversations should be drilled down on and happen in character and what can sort of be communicated with a few ooc comments. i love it when my players get into in-character conversations and come up with ideas because it gives me a time to rest and also steal their ideas for myself, but sometimes that happens naturally and other times it doesn't

but in short, the only thing that makes a "good" player is a willingness to engage with the group and the game

hyphz, if you get a chance to play in one of Serf's games, I highly recommend the experience. It's not because Serf draws great maps or does voice acting or constructs a complex story in advance, but because Serf listens pretty closely to what players want their characters to be, and runs with that, and makes the whole game about that. I would pay to play in a Serf game.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

D&D alignment is primitive keywording for spell effects combined with broad-strokes role-playing in an adversarial dungeon-crawling game. It's the fault of neither D&D nor alignment that they were thrust into the spotlight and asked to model complex realities, and not surprising that they are abysmal for that.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Xiahou Dun posted:

We're on week three of gaming with hyphz and he's totally a good dude who can improv like a pro and gave me some stellar ideas while we were playing.

In true AW fashion I'm not so much running a game as saying "sure" to everything and going "O gently caress o gently caress ofuck I need a smoke break to figure out what this means". (Except not really, it usually is like 40 second staring into space).

No but the the dude totally gets actual improv and can do it as good as anyone. He's a bro.

I have I<3HYPHZ tattooed across my entire back, was that wrong?

Pretty strong evidence that hyphz's group is trash garbage, making a person with good improv skills question his ability to do anything right.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

hyphz posted:

I once joked that there should be an RPG where all the stats are inverted - Weakness, Clumsiness, Frailty, etc - and you choose your weaknesses instead of your strengths - on the grounds that they will tend to contribute more to the focus of play time than strengths will, since strengths just resolve problems quickly. But again there would be a massive resonance failure because players want to play "a big strong kick-rear end warrior", not "a guy who's helpless in front of a wizard".

(Then again resonance comes from all kinds of weird places it seems. Last Saturday I encouraged the PF2e players to set up Roll20 macros to add up all their modifiers and the Warrior complained that "if it's just running macros we could just call it World of Warcraft". So, um, apparently walking through the math step-by-step reading it out as he went was a fundamental property of the TRPG experience for him? I just don't know, but I do know that he's very much about the resonance, which I think was part of his issue with Strike.)

Your ideas are good and you give games more thought than your entire group of RPG fundamentalist dipsticks put together.

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

hyphz posted:

They're from Game Night, or variants of those. Read Game Night. It's great.


The catch with all of these is that they all screw Batman if he is in the party, because he can only pick the lock, whereas all the others have powers that solve that problem plus lots of others as well. That's the other problem with the crunchy superhero games, that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prRySgsgtnM is eternally in place.

Or, you know, the GURPS equivalent:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Roll20 shows that you rolled a 47 on a d20, so how hard you hit the jerk is still right there.

Some people drink coffee for the caffeine, some drink it as part of their ritual with the morning paper and special pancakes or whatever the hell and decaf is equally good, as long as they get to do All The Things in the Ritual. Many people are somewhere in the middle.The RPG versions of these people talk past each other all the time.

I don't care much at all about rolling dice. If I could have one or two game sessions a week for the rest of my life on the condition that I never touch dice again (let alone add up all the modifiers), I wouldn't have to think twice about agreeing. Some people buy games just because they have a lot of dice, or unusual dice in them (!!).

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homullus
Mar 27, 2009

Leperflesh posted:

If you sell (or give away) a discussion tool, that doesn't make you responsible for what people say on private instances of that discussion tool.

This isn't always the case. I know you were referring to white supremacists' speech, but when the "speech" includes sharing copyrighted materials, even ISPs can be held liable if they knew it was happening. They don't have to go looking, but once somebody tells them, the clock is ticking.

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