Age of Empires 4+2: game is quickly approaching release quality

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Age of Empires 4+2: game is quickly approaching release quality

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

People who don't like AOE2 should try out AOE3, Age of Mythology and Age of Empires Online (via the Project Celeste fan project). They are each very different games.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2021 06:05

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 21:20

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

I posted it in Jossar's ongoing AoE2 LP, but he said I should also try here:

If any German-speaking goon is entertained by my droning about architecture, source research and behind the scenes stories in the LP thread, I may use some help translating a podcast interview with AoE2DE's Art Director. Contact me by DM if necessary.

# ¿ May 4, 2023 20:44

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Noosphere posted:

Podcast summary

Thank you, this is great work! May I post it elsewhere?

# ¿ May 7, 2023 13:11

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

In return, here are some comments. For casual readers, I'm sorry for this dry inside baseball dump.

On a general level, despite his title as Art Director, the discipline of visual art plays no role in the interview. He had no training in art, and his intern job was in design; sounds like he also said nothing on his personal understanding of and approach to art. This suggests that outside works of necessity as a modder (and on the mod-quality Tale of the Dragon), he is not a practicing artist, and mostly oversaw work by other artists, including ex-modders, freelancers and contract studios like Atomhawk (which produced AoE2DE's story cutscene art).

For my money, the visual design of AoE2DE has turned out decent, but there are avoidable mistakes (e.g. while AoE1DE was too muted and dreary, AoE2DE has no concept that colors like pure RGB blue should not be oversaturated) and decisions I strongly disagree with (foremostly, they decided to render everything with the same consistent lighting, and made the "shaded side" on the left too dark, which had major repercussions on the whole game's UX).

quote:

AoE3 mod

Specifically, he started the Napoleonic Era mod, which was one of AoE3's first large total conversion mods, and an influence on the whole community.

The NE mod was succeeded by Tilanus. He would become one of two Lead Designers on AoE3DE, alongside the community caster Interjection. Incidentally, Tilanus also made all the civilization icons in AoE2DE.

quote:

The internship lesson

I'm not qualified to speak on the topic, but this lesson sounds like the product of a mediocre, hierarchical work environment, which admittedly is where the majority of us find ourselves in. Compare it to people's accounts of the rare good environments, like Ensemble Studios or Big Huge Games, which encouraged egalitarianism, mutual trust, and fostering of talent, and the difference is night and day.

quote:

The really big project was AoE 1 : DE in 2016. We flew to Seattle and pitched the idea to Microsoft and worked all though 2016 on the project.

From what I understand, FE pitched an AoE1 remake more than once. The real reason they were ultimately greenlit can only be Phil Spencer's Xbox Game Pass strategy, which needed medium-budget niche titles to fill out its game lineup.

quote:

And on Microsoft�s side of things, they assigned some very good producers to AoE 1: DE.

This is interesting, especially in contrast to Rich Geldreich's statement that the AoE1DE project was a circus where unhappy, stressed Microsoft managers missed payment dates, tried to push extremely aggressive and unrealistic changes like adding the formation system without proportionate budget or scheduling, and failed to detect a freelance programmer's negligence of work until it was too late. (Geldreich did praise FE's artists.)

I think both speakers could be telling the truth from their perspectives, and the difference adds nuance to the situation.

quote:

Historical research is essential for us.

Me and my game company friend were holding back laughters when we read this part.

The fact is, ever since AoE2HD, there are two places in official products where you can find decent research:

- One is AoE3DE's DLCs. They contain a good deal more historical references than Ensemble's original, probably due to the work of Tilanus.

- One is AoE2 campaigns by the designer Filthydelphia (Portuguese, Burmese, Bulgarian, Italian, Indian, Sicilian). These campaigns actually contain details you must obtain by reading books and not skimming Wikipedia.

Outside these two places, nearly everything in AoE2DE can be traced to Wikipedia and first-page Google results. This is what led to them naming the Dravidian unique ship based on a Wikipedia hoax page on the Chola navy. Another hoax page on the Chola army, likely from the same forger, "inspired" the Dravidian tech Medical Corps.

The details that aren't, are often drawn from community members' research.

Or take this other example of quality from an architecture post of mine:

Serial Architectural Compromiser Episode 7 posted:

Two decades later, AoE2DE would advertise itself on better historical accuracy using a new British Wonder as poster boy (another long story, another time). No thought was spared on the Korean Wonder, which received more fantasy flourishes, including vertical banners with Sejong written in Hangul (Korean alphabet) at the 4-way Japanese-style portals.

I assure you that was not how banners, or King Sejong's name, or Hangul, or portals were used.

cuc fucked around with this message at 22:01 on May 7, 2023

# ¿ May 7, 2023 21:36

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Early unit obsoletion forcing switch is absolutely deliberate game design. That's why they reused the concept in AoE3, where Crossbowman and Pikeman are "archaic units" that by default do not upgrade past Age 2.

That AoE1 has become a game either decided in Age 2 or played by "no fighting until Age 3" rules is a different problem.

One of AoE2's often cited design mistakes is that it doesn't have unit switch in Barracks, instead having a long Militia - Champion line, making the line hard to balance and unwieldy - if they are too good, early Militia becomes a snowballing advantage; if they are weak, the laborious upgrades make them even less attractive.

KOGAHAZAN!! posted:

improved bowman

Since this knowledge seems to be disappearing off the internet, I feel obliged to discuss the names of the bowman units.

The three units are based on a three-stage classification of bow architecture that was prevalent in entry-level pop history in the 1990s.

A simple bow consists of a single piece of material. The European longbow is a simple bow.

An "improved bow" is laminated, built from layered pieces of plant materials, typically wood and/or bamboo.

A composite bow is what you are familiar with, adding animal horn and sinew to massively improve the strength without increasing bow size.

The "Improved Bowman" isn't a nebulously better archer, he's an archer using a laminated bow.

khwarezm posted:

At this rate I'd almost want a full fledged spin off game that's basically the Ancient and Classical era but not beholden to the other AOE games, certainly not 1.

Funnily enough, Age of Mythology kind of fits the bill since the least ancient civ represented in that is the pre-christian Norse, and otherwise it launched with the Ancient Greeks and Egyptians. If they ever added more (not terrible) content to it I think Ancient Mesopotamia and Vedic era India would be a shoe-in.

If you haven't tried the now fan-maintained, completely free Age of Empires Online, you are in for a treat! It's Ensemble's last Age game, a bit of a direct sequel to AoM (in the sense of sharing main creatives: lead designer, programmer and aritst), playing like a fast and asymmetrical version of the classical AoE2 gameplay with some AoM mechanics. I've heard it called "the C&C of Age of Empires".

In addition to the AoM civs, it now has Celts, Babylonians, Persians and Romans. A practically 100% original Indian civ is in long gestation.

cuc fucked around with this message at 21:03 on May 10, 2023

# ¿ May 10, 2023 20:47

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

AoEO launched with a double-whammy of obnoxious F2P mechanics and GFWL requirement. Both had been removed during its Microsoft career. The game now has heaps of single-player content and classical skirmish/PvP. The MMO stuff - crafting, home base deco, unit dress-up, advisor cards - is optional.

cuc fucked around with this message at 21:53 on May 10, 2023

# ¿ May 10, 2023 21:44

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Koramei posted:

Flipping back and forth between Return of Rome and AoE2 I think I've realized one of the big reasons I bounced off of AoE1:DE. Small buildings are totally workable with AoE1's vivid color palette and stylized details. Trying to HD-ify them, they end up looking muddy and confused. First playing ReoR I was figuring it was just 'cause I'm on a laptop (which surely doesn't help), but then I went to try AoE2's Romans and was immediately like "oh, I can actually see everything fine."

An industrial design thesis can be written on AoE1 vs. its remasters. Or we simply shrug: "yes, the original AoE1 is a visual masterpiece, and the people in charge of DE projects lack the art education to understand that."

For Return of Rome in particular though, I have an additional technical explanation:

It seems to suffer from aggressive DXT1 compression, turning details into jagged "dirty" pixels. Some sprites also have weirdly localized dark outlines.

You can compare with AoE1DE, which is muddy and muted by art direction, but also has all its sprites looking clean, because they are in a loseless format.

...Or the Romae ad Bellum mod, which uses AoE2DE's previous sprite format SMX (before they switched to lossy DXT1). SMX is loseless but restricts each sprite to its own 256-color palette.

cuc fucked around with this message at 20:57 on May 17, 2023

# ¿ May 17, 2023 17:56

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

I didn't know AoE4's balance team got entirely replaced, makes sense how they did a 180 into being much more competent and less buggy.

For the sake of prudence, let's say we don't know for sure how AoE4's design and balance are handled now (no thanks to long-term services making credits even less useful!), only that the Forgotten Empires AoE2 team have taken a more involved role, and introduced some of their signature tricks.

Even on AoE3DE, where the FE AoE3 team are given lots of freedom to play around, they didn't design the Tycoon economic competition mode.

# ¿ May 19, 2023 18:08

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

At the same time, files for "XP", "Levels", "Age Points" and a purchasable, Seasonal "Age Pass" have appeared in the recent AoE2 patch.

In the new version of AoE3, there's no direct mention of the Age Pass, though some text strings are about earning a "Seasonal XP".

Battle pass monetization really only makes sense for F2P, so at least they've been tinkering with the idea of transitioning the whole series to F2P, with AoE3DE as pilot.

I also think the Age Pass seasons may work like Halo MCC's (free) seasons: play any game to earn rewards across the whole series. This would explain why they so urgently want to revive Age of Mythology and AoE1 right now, inside their existing tech foundations of AoE2DE and AoE3DE, in the face of all potential pitfalls: it gives their cross-game reward system a wider portfolio.

The biggest hole in my theory is how such a cross-game battle pass would work for console players, who will only have access to 3 out of 5 titles - Return of Rome, AoE2DE and AoE4, since they have yet to announce any console port of AoE3DE / AoM Retold, and these probably wouldn't run on Xbox One S without major graphical concessions.

If those ports are in the cards, then we already have their schemes for the next half-decade of Age series laid out before our eyes.

(There's also Tencent's Age of Empires Mobile, but that game already launched in China and is decidedly not a winner.)

cuc fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Aug 4, 2023

# ¿ Aug 4, 2023 17:40

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Under a battle pass model (invented by Valve for Dota 2), your earned seasonal levels will unlock cosmetic rewards, but only half of them. The game will keep reminding you of the other half which you've become entitled to if you fork out a little cash.

The important part is you can't just buy the rewards - both pay and play are required, which keeps the community in the game.

And when I said the model only works with F2P, I forgot Blizzard has battle passes in Diablo IV.

Milo and POTUS posted:

What is age of empires mobile was it anything like AoEO, a game that seemed pretty alright from what little I gleaned from it years after it was murderized

AoE Mobile is a boilerplate F2P money drain with no outstanding quality other than its modern 3D graphics.

Lootboxes, a dozen currencies, hundreds of meters to fill: yes. Real-time tactical combat: a little. Actual RTS: no.

cuc fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Aug 7, 2023

# ¿ Aug 5, 2023 10:32

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Echtzeitalter (literally "Real-time Age"), novel about an Austrian boarding school student playing AoE2 has won German Book Prize 2023.

Summary with sample translation:

quote:

Tonio Schachinger: Echtzeitalter (Realtimes)
Rowohlt Verlag, March 2023

An elite boarding school in Vienna, housed within what used to be the Hapsburgs� summer residence. The form tutor is an old-fashioned and despotic man. What could anyone hope to learn here that they could actually use in real life? Till Kokorda has no time for the canon or for this snobbish environment. His passion is gaming � specifically the real-time strategy game �Age of Empires 2�. After his father dies, Till�s hobby becomes a financial imperative. Although nobody at the school knows it, Till is an online celebrity at the age of 15 � the youngest Top-10 player in the world. But how real is this kind of happiness? In 2020, his final year at the school, nothing goes the way Till had expected it to, either at school or in life.
Tonio Schachinger�s novel moves between almost-universal experiences and places that most of us are unfamiliar with. At the same time his writing is surprising, his humour unpretentious and accessible: Realtimes is an example and proof of the timeless power of a good story. And a great social novel.

cuc fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Oct 17, 2023

# ¿ Oct 17, 2023 04:18

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

Jennell Jaquays, former Ensemble member is facing huge medical bills after being on a ventilator due to Guillain-Barre Syndrome:

https://www.gofundme.com/f/jennell-jaquays-has-a-long-road-back

She is a legendary game designer and artist who led a storied career from tabletop RPGs to video games including Quake 2 and 3, before joining Ensemble. She made many contributions to AoE3 and The WarChiefs, including making half of AoE3's and all of TWC's home city scenes.

She also co-founded SMU Guildhall in 2003, one of the first graduate programs for game development.

Matt Chat interview with Jaquays: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDZ8fFOesDQ

cuc fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Oct 22, 2023

# ¿ Oct 22, 2023 16:59

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# ¿ May 18, 2024 21:20

cuc: Nov 25, 2013

khwarezm posted:

The fact that it's specifically Temujin (as opposed to Genghis) suggests to me that [snip]

They didn't phrase it clearly (their announcements have always been so mealy-mouthed), but all scenarios in this DLC are by the designer Filthydelphia. 14 of them are updates of his existing Mod Workshop scenarios, 5 are fully new.

The Temujin scenario most certainly is an update of his Rise of Genghis Khan. It's a somewhat abstract representation of his beginning.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2024 06:50

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Age of Empires 4+2: game is quickly approaching release quality