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mila kunis posted:I'm not sure Indira Gandhi was that right wing, espescially in comparison with what came after. She's one of the primary hate targets of the extreme right wing party in power in India today. I think a lot of that can be explained by a shift in the Overton Window, she was right-wing at the time but not nearly as right-wing as Modi is today. She suspended the constitution and civil rights laws, and did implement some social welfare policies but often those policies were only available to men who underwent voluntary sterilization by the government beforehand. In some cases, men of lower castes were forcibly sterilized. I'm no expert on history so I'll just post this link and let you make up your own mind: https://qz.com/india/1414774/the-legacy-of-indias-quest-to-sterilise-millions-of-men/
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May 29, 2020 00:49
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She was not goo either way, and I look forward to discussing said topics as we go through the book
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May 29, 2020 00:55
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Finished the June 1 reading assignment. Enjoying it so far and looking forward to the discussion!
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May 30, 2020 01:14
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Ordered a copy:)
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May 30, 2020 22:24
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I picked up a copy. I知 about fifty pages in and so far it痴 really good!
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Jun 2, 2020 00:25
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Chapter 1-2 summary tonight or tomorrow morning
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Jun 2, 2020 00:59
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where will the discussion take place, the CSPAM discord or somewhere elese?
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Jun 2, 2020 01:01
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I assumed itt. There shouldn't be that much traffic or anything
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Jun 2, 2020 01:22
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Having it in the thread really helps those in other timezones *cough, Australia* play along a lot easier.
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Jun 2, 2020 01:24
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my library copy hasn't arrived yet but I'll catch up
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Jun 2, 2020 02:35
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Early quote that was Good:quote:When the rent-collector comes with the receipt in my father’s name, sometimes I feel like telling him to go up, to heaven, to the renter’s new address. Still reading this err has issued a correction as of 08:10 on Feb 23, 2023 |
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Jun 3, 2020 16:24
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I知 almost done with chapter 5, and I知 really seeing the parallels with what痴 going on in the world today. 
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Jun 6, 2020 05:04
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oh dang I just saw this thread, but I値l get caught up on the first several chapters. I致e been longing for a good book club, hopefully this goes well!
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Jun 6, 2020 19:12
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I didn't know poo poo about the caste system before this, I just assumed it was similar to the US or something where there were the haves and have-nots, not this literal 'you were born a janitor' poo poo. Jesus christ.
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Jun 7, 2020 00:46
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Yeah, it's crazy. India is bananas. I'm wrapping up the first summary should by out shortly. My first draft got deleted when chrome crashed 
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Jun 7, 2020 00:58
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Just getting to chapter three, really liking this one so far.
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Jun 9, 2020 06:12
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I just wanna say that there has been a rash of deliveries getting stolen in my apt building and my $4 used copy of this book appears to be one of the victims. I really hate reading on computer/tablet so I知 trying to get a replacement but I swear I知 not scabbing out and that once I do I値l catch up with the thread
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Jun 9, 2020 14:40
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I was running over in my head how I wanted to help facilitate discussion. I was writing a post with chapter descriptions and character observations, but then realized this isn't Game of Thrones. A straight forward story that's easy to follow. So I'm just gonna make an observation and invite others to do the same Chapter three is a completely insane story within a story. Mistry touches on class, racism, poverty, rebellion, capitalism, sexism. It's a whirlwind of a story that takes place during India's urbanization and the chaos following the end of British rule in 1947. The climax of the chapter, a gruesome massacre of the Tanner to Tailor family because Naryan insists upon actually casting his vote instead of handing it over to be cast by the Brahmian landlord, is obviously stunning and memorable but ultimately it's not particularly insightful or interesting from a "nature of human" perspective. The society Mistry describes is harsh feudalism in all but name, with a thin veneer of democracy to claim mandates are of the people. Thus, while the massacre/execution itself is stomach turning, it's in line with how the Brahmian have behaved throughout the entire chapter I re-read this chapter, and two things stuck with me. 1. The courage regular people in this story show is inspiring. Hindu neighbors put themselves at risk to stop a mob from killing the kindly tailor Ashraf. They save his life. But when capitalism comes knocking and a factory made clothing outlet opens up, the same neighbors just let him slowly lose everything so they can individually save a few coins buying mass made clothing 2. This one is a whole lot less subtle. Mistry's writing is surprisingly breezy with how he casually mentions someone sleeping in the street getting their head smashed open by a brick because they were too loud. But this one highlights the truly dark observations he has about human nature. Roosy, Naryan's mom, throwing a fit about him possibly sewing clothes for a shitcart driver, one of the only undesirables lower than their tanner class is just super loving sad the think about it. The man apologizes to Naryan for even asking, in a manner clearly written by Mistry to reflect how the upper castes talk to everyone. Is she looking out for herself, because them breaking the rules would bring more scrutiny from the Brahmins? Or is her status, "at least I'm not *that* guy" what motivates her. Allowing a multi-stratified society is a powerful tool to remain in control. Look at how struggling American chuds won't vote for better safety nets because that would mean a lazy black man gets it too
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Jun 10, 2020 05:06
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So this is a super interesting read. Beware it has minor spoilers but the author notes hoe Mistry uses sensory cues to define the difference between classes, notably smell. https://sanglap-journal.in/index.php/sanglap/article/view/95/149 quote:The process of identification by odour, simultaneously, becomes a strategy of difference between the public and the private, the habitable and the dangerous, and the socially privileged and the socially inferior, chiefly enforced by the dominant order in a social structure. In A Fine Balance, Dina discerns strangeness in the odour of urine after both Om and Ishvar have used her bathroom. “Different diets, different habits—it was only natural their urine left a strange odour” (Mistry 83), she muses. The tables at Vishram Vegetarian Hotel are mostly referred to as “smelly”, while there is no such pronouncement when Dina sits the three persons down to dinner at her flat. I didn't get around to watching Parasite until a few weeks ago and the timing of this discovery is funny because ~the way different classes of people smell~ is literally the flashpoint for much of the tragedy in the last act of Parasite. Also, the civil unrest and rioting and subsequent ridiculous response from an authoritative federal government sure feels relevant today. I'll be thinking about that as the book jumps deeper into the events of the emergency oxsnard has issued a correction as of 07:49 on Jun 10, 2020 |
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Jun 10, 2020 07:29
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Did you mean sensory rather than sensual there?
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Jun 10, 2020 07:35
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Another thing one will note throughout the book is the use of a contract as a literary device. -Dina's landlord citing contractual language as a means to control her. The pressure placed on her is then pushed upon the tailors in chapter 4. They're her employees, she's the one breaking the law. But, they're low class -A reference to the Brahmin preaching caste order, but the lower caste merchants and tradesmen in the town refuse to follow the law and cover for their Muslim neighbor. I don't have the book in front of me but there's a reference to Brahmins not upholding their end of the deal -Ishvar's dad agrees to grind an entire sack of chilis but the mortar breaks 90% of the way through and he is injured. He is paid nothing for his labor because he didn't finish the entire job -The Om and Ishvars slumlord pays the officials off on the DL, yet his "tenants" are contractually obliged to pay/act a certain way. This illegal slumlord is no different than the real landlord Some of this is the age old discussion around Indian social order and British bureaucracy being a match made in hell, that played their worst features off each other. India had generations of mistreatment of lower ("inferior") castes. The Brits helped them define their social rules in law. They took an already horribly unequal, bigoted culture and institutionalized it. They gave the oppressors the western tools to further suppress the lower class. I read a great article on this a few months back, will post when I find it
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Jun 10, 2020 07:48
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Inceltown posted:Did you mean sensory rather than sensual there? Ya. lol
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Jun 10, 2020 07:49
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oxsnard posted:2. This one is a whole lot less subtle. Mistry's writing is surprisingly breezy with how he casually mentions someone sleeping in the street getting their head smashed open by a brick because they were too loud. But this one highlights the truly dark observations he has about human nature. Roosy, Naryan's mom, throwing a fit about him possibly sewing clothes for a shitcart driver, one of the only undesirables lower than their tanner class is just super loving sad the think about it. The man apologizes to Naryan for even asking, in a manner clearly written by Mistry to reflect how the upper castes talk to everyone. Is she looking out for herself, because them breaking the rules would bring more scrutiny from the Brahmins? Or is her status, "at least I'm not *that* guy" what motivates her. Allowing a multi-stratified society is a powerful tool to remain in control. Look at how struggling American chuds won't vote for better safety nets because that would mean a lazy black man gets it too Definitely a lot of this going on, and to me Dina is the epitome of it. She doesn't even feel a certain way about the idea of the tailors working with her until she is given instructions by an upper class woman on not letting them take advantage of her. Up until this point she has appeared to be good-natured and kind, but constantly stops herself and reinforces the idea that she must be 'above' them, rather than allow them to befriend her or treat her as an equal. I don't know how much of the book is a truthful portrayal, but it does highlight (and remind me) how desperate situations can get, and the extremes that it pushes people to. I often talk with my friends about how, now that we live relatively comfortable lives, that it is very easy to forget what life used to be like, and to begin falling into the trap that (usually) liberals do, where since things are good now, what use is fighting for change.
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Jun 10, 2020 09:11
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Was suicide common in this era? I know it's highlighted in the book when the trains are delayed several times and the commentary surrounding it.
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Jun 10, 2020 18:22
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err posted:Was suicide common in this era? I know it's highlighted in the book when the trains are delayed several times and the commentary surrounding it. Spoilers, of a sort, don't read: The implication is that people may not be actually committing suicide, but rather being murdered, with suicide as a cover story, later in the book.
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Jun 10, 2020 19:32
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People have committed suicide as a means to escape desperation across history and geography. I would be fascinated to know modern vs historical rates though Anyways, another interesting thing is that Maneck and Dina are Parsi. It's a ethnoreligious population from Persia who escaped to India after Muslims started doing genocides. Current population in India is a few hundred thousand, so they are a small and shrinking population. Their religion is notable for it's emphasis on gender equality. Which makes sense. A middle class Hindu woman in the 1950s would have next to no say in her betrothal. But Dina got final word in her marriage choice, to her brother's dismay. He certainly tries to push Indian culture by setting her up with one of her bros and obviously treats her like poo poo, but the gender roles in her back story is interesting. I think that Maneck is a stand in for Mistry himself, who moved from Mumbai in 1975 to Toronto. I think Mistry uses Maneck as a cover for his own naivete and privilege. This becomes more apparent later in the book oxsnard has issued a correction as of 19:59 on Jun 10, 2020 |
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Jun 10, 2020 19:57
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Kaedric posted:Definitely a lot of this going on, and to me Dina is the epitome of it. She doesn't even feel a certain way about the idea of the tailors working with her until she is given instructions by an upper class woman on not letting them take advantage of her. Up until this point she has appeared to be good-natured and kind, but constantly stops herself and reinforces the idea that she must be 'above' them, rather than allow them to befriend her or treat her as an equal. I agree. She had the ability to live with her brother in some capacity but chose to become a manager (if I remember right). It really goes against her character and it made me sad to see her transformation from sitting in a theater observing and taking in all of the different people and their quirks to being a ruthless and heartless supervisor. I guess that's just capitalism.
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Jun 11, 2020 00:54
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err posted:I agree. She had the ability to live with her brother in some capacity but chose to become a manager (if I remember right). Let's not forget she was sexually assaulted by her brother
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Jun 11, 2020 02:33
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oxsnard posted:
One of the main themes seems to be erasing the distinctions between Dina and Maneck vs Om and Ishvar. There is only one caste system: people who use (and destroy) their bodies with labor, and people who make their money managing or enslaving them. Laborers can be discarded instantly if they are no longer useful. Dina's eyesight is now useless for sewing. The objectification of people's bodies comes up again and again: Maneck's hazing where he is figuratively turned into a refrigerator, the hair collector, the mortal and pestle incident, the scent people acquire from doing jobs like tanning. Maneck's parents don't fit into this, but their way of life is in the process of being destroyed. This probably has something to do with marxism.
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Jun 11, 2020 07:35
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i got caught up in the cool zone so i missed week 1, but will post about week 2
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Jun 11, 2020 12:15
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a few DRUNK BONERS posted:One of the main themes seems to be erasing the distinctions between Dina and Maneck vs Om and Ishvar. There is only one caste system: people who use (and destroy) their bodies with labor, and people who make their money managing or enslaving them. Laborers can be discarded instantly if they are no longer useful. Dina's eyesight is now useless for sewing. The objectification of people's bodies comes up again and again: Maneck's hazing where he is figuratively turned into a refrigerator, the hair collector, the mortal and pestle incident, the scent people acquire from doing jobs like tanning. Yeah great observations. My first read of this novel was in 08. It was in the middle of my transition from edgelord libertarian in college to my leftist self today. So I'd say at the time I was a shitlib. I remember the poverty, the abuse and the class stuff, but it is clear now that the novel is deeply rooted in much more, as you say, Marxist values
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Jun 12, 2020 15:02
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everyone still reading this? no one is commenting
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Jun 15, 2020 14:44
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im reading it, the chapters are just really long
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Jun 15, 2020 14:55
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as long as there's one other person I'm good. Will type up some thoughts on chapters 6-10 later
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Jun 15, 2020 15:02
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err posted:im reading it, the chapters are just really long Yeah I was surprised by this. My kindle being '70 minutes left in chapter' when the week one deadline approached! I actually ended up staying up till 6am one night and knocking it out, I have trouble remembering where 5-10 ends so I'm scared of posting spoilers.
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Jun 15, 2020 16:46
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Kaedric posted:Yeah I was surprised by this. My kindle being '70 minutes left in chapter' when the week one deadline approached! Yeah chapter 3 my Kindle told me it was 2 hours left.
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Jun 16, 2020 06:45
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Just letting you know I am still reading this. I am at about 45% on my Kindle and it is really good. It was a slow burn for me going through their backstories but I am really into the story now. Will probably finish in a week.
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Jul 20, 2020 01:44
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I finished this book, it feels like it left a hole in my soul.
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Aug 2, 2020 14:57
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haha I'm glad someone else read it. Goons, read this book and discuss!
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Aug 2, 2020 17:36
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yet another failed goon project
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Aug 2, 2020 17:48
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