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CelestialScribe posted:This is a really weird protest. Cops are involved in noise complaints in a huge number of places. I shouldn't have to point out to you that not every city is like New York. Can you any specific cities that rely on police officers to fake care of noise complaints? I’m actually interested in this, and it seems like you think cops actually do some work to solve community problems, which is once again a laughable proposition.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:06
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Noise complaints are dealt with by cops in my city too. A lot of times the agencies who’s job it is to deal with things like noise, animal control, child welfare know that they’re going to be met with hostility and either abdicate their responsibility or bring the cops with them automatically increasing tension. UnknownTarget posted:Blaziken386 posted this in another thread: All those things are potentially positive but will need significant money and people. But if you took the entire police budget and used it for social workers alone it probably still wouldn’t be enough. I think the calls to defund the police are just to punish them. The idea that that’s the only place the money can be found for social development is just back-rationalising. If an actually fair, working, progressive tax system is out of reach then divert money from the military budget to all of those new agencies listed above. And if you think both those options are fantasy what are the chances of any of desperately needed changes to law enforcement taking place let alone radical ‘abolition’
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Jun 7, 2020 08:09
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https://mobile.twitter.com/zellieim...1587%23lastpost Hm yes, this is fine.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:10
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COVID-19 posted:Can you any specific cities that rely on police officers to fake care of noise complaints? I’m actually interested in this, and it seems like you think cops actually do some work to solve community problems, which is once again a laughable proposition. I can only speak from personal experience, but I know it’s been done in Denver. I don’t particularly understand why this is a surprising proposition to you? I mean, forget noise complaints if that really bothers you. I can think of examples where people get into an altercation and it turns violent. Under a model where police pass responsibilities to other departments, this is clear cut: they address the issue. A social worker might be there, certainly anyone would be unarmed, etc. Under a community policing model, I don’t see that situation ending well in a large number of communities. Does a complete abolition future contain explanations for how to solve that? I understand your inclination will be to say “it’s better than the current system so gently caress you”, but considering this forum is for you know, discussing and debating, I’d be interested in a substantial answer.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:14
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CelestialScribe posted:I can only speak from personal experience, but I know it’s been done in Denver. Have you read the thread? I made a post about this in the first page. Yes, of course many people have imagined and theorized what a community without racist corrupt police would look like. Guys like these shouldn’t be allowed unlimited power and weapons. https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/paterson-press/2019/03/29/all-6-accused-paterson-nj-cops-came-police-academy-class-2014/3310822002/ COVID-19 fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 08:20
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Celestial Scribe what do you think community policing means?
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Jun 7, 2020 08:26
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Crumbskull posted:Celestial Scribe what do you think community policing means? Based on the discussion I’ve read and the literature I’ve read, I think community policing falls into two buckets or explanations: 1. An authorised system whereby current police functions are divided into different departments or governmental authorities. 2. A more anarchist structure whereby communities are given direct control over how to handle these situations with no external support from dedicated agencies. The first is easy for me to imagine and I’d support. The second I find harder to understand or imagine.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:32
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Holy poo poo that suicidal man that those cops filmed themselves brutally beating actually ended up killing himself. Another great example of the outcomes of the system CelestialScribe espouses. https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...ead/2775587001/ (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 7, 2020 08:32
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COVID-19 posted:Holy poo poo that suicidal man that those cops filmed themselves brutally beating actually ended up killing himself. I have repeatedly, repeatedly made comments in support of police abolition and providing different departments and agencies with the authority to do more. Mods, how is this allowed? We’re just allowed to misconstrue others positions and outright lie about them? My precious post literally contains support from me for abolishing police. At this point you’re just refusing to engage because I don’t know, you’re angry or something.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:38
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CelestialScribe posted:Based on the discussion I’ve read and the literature I’ve read, I think community policing falls into two buckets or explanations: Its difficult to imagine the second scenario because the outcome would definitionally be a product of the specfic community in question with its attendant blend of culture, values, needs and wanta etc. You asking an unanswerable question. But if I had to guess I figure most of the community would arrive at something that looked a lot like the first option, and I also believe that they would be able to come up with an appropriate response to neighbors playing their music too loud that didn't involve threatening them with violence or imprisoning them.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:40
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CelestialScribe posted:I have repeatedly, repeatedly made comments in support of police abolition and providing different departments and agencies with the authority to do more. Huh? I lust have misunderstood your posts then, because it sounds like you’re weary of a system that lacks agencies with authority to enforce laws and regulations.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:44
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Crumbskull posted:Its difficult to imagine the second scenario because the outcome would definitionally be a product of the specfic community in question with its attendant blend of culture, values, needs and wanta etc. You asking an unanswerable question. But if I had to guess I figure most of the community would arrive at something that looked a lot like the first option, and I also believe that they would be able to come up with an appropriate response to neighbors playing their music too loud that didn't involve threatening them with violence or imprisoning them. I believe a lot of communities would. I also believe some communities would end up killing each other.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:46
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CelestialScribe posted:I believe a lot of communities would. I also believe some communities would end up killing each other. Cool man.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:48
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CelestialScribe posted:I believe a lot of communities would. I also believe some communities would end up killing each other.  it’s really quite telling that you think white people aren’t already doing this to everyone else with the help of the police and military.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:50
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COVID-19 posted:Huh? I lust have misunderstood your posts then, because it sounds like you’re weary of a system that lacks agencies with authority to enforce laws and regulations. I want to distribute police responsibilities to other agencies who could deal with most situations in better ways. Eg social workers, unarmed response, etc. how is that supporting the status quo in any shape or form?
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Jun 7, 2020 08:50
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CelestialScribe posted:I want to distribute police responsibilities to other agencies who could deal with most situations in better ways. Eg social workers, unarmed response, etc. how is that supporting the status quo in any shape or form? Cool, you want to abolish the police and you can imagine a scenario where local democracy becomes genocide. Established.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:52
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CelestialScribe posted:I want to distribute police responsibilities to other agencies who could deal with most situations in better ways. Eg social workers, unarmed response, etc. how is that supporting the status quo in any shape or form? “Police responsibilities” are simply oppressing PoC and poor people, shifting these responsibilities to other departments with different names and uniforms are still going to end up with a racist system and oppressed people.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:53
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Crumbskull posted:Cool, you want to abolish the police and you can imagine a scenario where local democracy becomes genocide. Established. Can you think of any examples where local communities enforce their own rules and punishments? Because I can.
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Jun 7, 2020 08:57
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I'm in favor of replacing the police, but "cops don't currently deal with noise complaints" is a loving insane thing to post. My brother was setting off homemade firecrackers in my backyard a few years ago and then an hour later a county cop showed up to yell as us for it. So yeah, there are absolutely places where they do that (but they shouldn't)
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Jun 7, 2020 08:58
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COVID-19 posted:“Police responsibilities” are simply oppressing PoC and poor people, shifting these responsibilities to other departments with different names and uniforms are still going to end up with a racist system and oppressed people. Is there any situation you can imagine where that isn’t the case? Or is decentralised community policing the only realistic scenario you see?
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Jun 7, 2020 08:59
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COVID-19 posted:
i dont think anyone including you are reading CS' posts which makes it really weird that youre all responding to him
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Jun 7, 2020 08:59
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Saagonsa posted:I'm in favor of replacing the police, but "cops don't currently deal with noise complaints" is a loving insane thing to post. My brother was setting off homemade firecrackers in my backyard a few years ago and then an hour later a county cop showed up to yell as us for it. So yeah, there are absolutely places where they do that (but they shouldn't) Fair enough, I envision “noise complaints” being noise from apartments nearby and not fireworks/explosives though.
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Jun 7, 2020 09:00
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COVID-19 posted:Fair enough, I envision “noise complaints” being noise from apartments nearby and not fireworks/explosives though. there's more than one reason for a noise complaint its not all just like "my upstairs neighbour is walking around with loud shoes"
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Jun 7, 2020 09:02
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COVID-19 posted:Fair enough, I envision “noise complaints” being noise from apartments nearby and not fireworks/explosives though. I know in my neighbourhood, a lot of complaints come from locals doing burnouts and street racing etc.
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Jun 7, 2020 09:02
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CelestialScribe posted:Is there any situation you can imagine where that isn’t the case? Or is decentralised community policing the only realistic scenario you see? I think addressing the root causes of systemic issues would go a lot further than simply dealing with the outcomes of those societal problems. For instance, instead of having a uniformed agency deal with homeless people having psychotic episodes in a public area, we should give people homes and free psychiatric help.
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Jun 7, 2020 09:03
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Verviticus posted:there's more than one reason for a noise complaint its not all just like "my upstairs neighbour is walking around with loud shoes" Right, which is why I said “fair enough”, after I realized my previous statement wasn’t accurate.
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Jun 7, 2020 09:04
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Saagonsa posted:I'm in favor of replacing the police, but "cops don't currently deal with noise complaints" is a loving insane thing to post. My brother was setting off homemade firecrackers in my backyard a few years ago and then an hour later a county cop showed up to yell as us for it. So yeah, there are absolutely places where they do that (but they shouldn't) COVID-19 posted:I think addressing the root causes of systemic issues would go a lot further than simply dealing with the outcomes of those societal problems. For instance, instead of having a uniformed agency deal with homeless people having psychotic episodes in a public area, we should give people homes and free psychiatric help. Rapulum_Dei fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 09:04
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COVID-19 posted:I think addressing the root causes of systemic issues would go a lot further than simply dealing with the outcomes of those societal problems. For instance, instead of having a uniformed agency deal with homeless people having psychotic episodes in a public area, we should give people homes and free psychiatric help. I 100% agree. Unfortunately it won’t solve all needs for some type of response. For instance, I don’t particularly see community justice would work in the case of a murder. Let’s say one takes place - do we feel comfortable leaving each individual community to respond in the way they feel is appropriate? Feels way too close to libertarianism. CelestialScribe fucked around with this message at 09:09 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 09:06
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Rapulum_Dei posted:Can you think of any examples where local communities enforce their own rules and punishments? Because I can. Buddy, I'm aware of WHOLE COUNTRIES that do this.
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Jun 7, 2020 09:13
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CelestialScribe posted:I don’t know if you’ve ever implemented major process changes but people tend to get pissed off if they aren’t consulted and aren’t part of a process. Have you? I actually work in Government for the largest County in my state and I work with State, Federal and Local partners for more than a decade now. If you think that public consultation is a barrier to Government's doing sweeping changes you have absolutely no clue how Government works. There are varying levels of how we even go about consulting the public for changes to policy, plans or funding and a large amount of changes we do take almost no public comment or discourse. Also, at the highest levels politicians make decisions, not the public. If you disagree with your Mayor or Governor, Senator or President you really don't have much recourse for their decisions as far as governance unless you sue them or vote them out. Public officials make decisions against the public's "will" all the time. However, large amounts of public pressure can force these politicians to enact sweeping changes, because at the end of the day politicians want to retain the power and money that come with their position. Most council persons, mayors, county executives (or equivalent), congresspeople and a large amount of governors do not have term limits, and can be pulled towards the public's will. CelestialScribe posted:What you hear me saying is “abolition won’t work because too many people disagree with it”. You're saying both , fyi but abolition's support is only going up. I've been to four rallies thusfar and I'm not sure I've ever seen any movement get bigger at this magnitude per rally; of course i'm not conducting a poll about who believes in abolition vs reform but if I had to take an educated guess, a good number would be for getting rid of the police as they currently exist and that's abolition enough for me. This is further supported by the fact that it's the top story on the front page of CNN and a bunch of other publications (NYT, NYPost, LA times to name a few) have the issue of abolition as one of their current top stories. For Black people, we know that moving towards abolition is really the only solution that will improve our lives and chances for literal survival so we are going to work hard towards that. I can't speak for any other group's motives but the support is broad across a bunch of demographics if what is happening outside is indicative of anything. CelestialScribe posted:For instance, take my example of a noise complaint. How is that dealt with in a situation with no police? If someone doesn’t feel safe confronting another in person, who do they call? What happens if the confrontation turns violent? The first part has been explained already by other posters so i'll avoid it but I'm just going to disagree that abolition won't win broad support but honestly it doesn't even matter if it does or doesn't. You don't think so but a whole bunch of social changes had have to be dragged along before public support. Civil rights ALSO wasn't popular in it's time so should we have not kept on going with that too? JFK and RFK were not going to move forward with Civil Rights law until Jerome Smith told them in very simple terms - "then get ready for war against black people". If it wasn't for Black Anger, we wouldn't have Civil Rights, period. From there, what JFK and RFK did were against sweeping public opinion. It wasn't about waiting then, it's not about waiting now. It's existence or non existence. Abolition != complete lawlessness and nothing in place to deal with laws, it's completely dissolving what exists currently and spreading some of the responsibilities that the Police already shouldn't have and then the functions in which an armed force are required can remain but for a completely new and different and much smaller entity. The current manifestation of the police has no hope of reform, you aren't going to magically handwave white supremacy away, it's what America is built upon, you aren't taking away the power of police unions, and the law is NOT on the public's side. As I've stated before the Police are reinforced by law to not have to protect and serve - The Supreme Court has already affirmed that the police have NO constitutional duty to protect you from ANY harm, so in reality, it doesn't even serve the function that anyone would like them to. It has to go. Yuzenn fucked around with this message at 14:28 on Jun 7, 2020 |
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Jun 7, 2020 14:00
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COVID-19 posted:Holy poo poo that suicidal man that those cops filmed themselves brutally beating actually ended up killing himself. Are we sure the police didn’t murder him as retribution for convicting those bastard cops who assaulted him in the hospital?
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Jun 7, 2020 15:11
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Cops are trained to be literal sociopaths - this motherfucker even tells them to ignore being filmed by the media and bystanders, explicitly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y It is some disturbing poo poo.
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Jun 7, 2020 15:16
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A comment I read elsewhere that I think is quite apt is that the police aren't just acting like an occupying army, they're distinctly acting like a military that is demoralized, frightened and believes the population stands behind it. The Intercept posted:We Crunched the Numbers: Police — Not Protesters — Are Overwhelmingly Responsible for Attacking Journalists
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Jun 7, 2020 16:35
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This may be a feeble attempt to articulate popular rage but I think what policymakers are going to need to understand very quickly is that whatever social ills might arise from rapid measures of reform, they are immensely preferable to a current system wherein the state regularly murders people of color.
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Jun 7, 2020 17:53
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Prime example why reforming is drat near impossible https://twitter.com/mdoukmas/status/1269241232200531968
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Jun 7, 2020 20:17
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The noise complaint issue brought to mind something I've been thinking about with regards to the abolition of police over the past few days. Part of the reason some people feel uncomfortable about the abolition of police is that we're trained to think of police as the only form of lawful authority, but if you stop and think about it, that's not really the case. There are tons of industries which have laws that regulate them, and enforcement is done by government agencies and not uniformed assholes with guns and handcuffs. The burden of dealing with armed police officers for even minor crimes is placed on the less-privileged exclusively, even though the sorts of laws enforced by government agencies like the FAA or the USDA can often have huge, huge public safety implications.
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Jun 7, 2020 20:43
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I guess burning down a police station worked https://twitter.com/ACLUMN/status/1269738051498106880?s=20
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Jun 7, 2020 23:14
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Yuzenn posted:Have you? I actually work in Government for the largest County in my state and I work with State, Federal and Local partners for more than a decade now. If you think that public consultation is a barrier to Government's doing sweeping changes you have absolutely no clue how Government works. There are varying levels of how we even go about consulting the public for changes to policy, plans or funding and a large amount of changes we do take almost no public comment or discourse. Also, at the highest levels politicians make decisions, not the public. If you disagree with your Mayor or Governor, Senator or President you really don't have much recourse for their decisions as far as governance unless you sue them or vote them out. Public officials make decisions against the public's "will" all the time. So you could get a state legislature to say "no more cops by 2021" but they are going to hand the responsibility of what that actually looks like and all the myriad rules and regulations and sub-agencies and whatever off to the state's DOJ, and that DOJ may, depending on the state, have to answer a lot of really hard questions from the public and do so satisfactorily, and some of that may require admitting that harm will increase a little in some areas while decreasing a lot in others. quote:The noise complaint issue brought to mind something I've been thinking about with regards to the abolition of police over the past few days. Part of the reason some people feel uncomfortable about the abolition of police is that we're trained to think of police as the only form of lawful authority, but if you stop and think about it, that's not really the case. There are tons of industries which have laws that regulate them, and enforcement is done by government agencies and not uniformed assholes with guns and handcuffs. The burden of dealing with armed police officers for even minor crimes is placed on the less-privileged exclusively, even though the sorts of laws enforced by government agencies like the FAA or the USDA can often have huge, huge public safety implications.
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Jun 8, 2020 00:34
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Zachack posted:What is required for an agency to enact changes varies from state to state - in my state, unless specifically called out by statute, all state regulations besides typo-fixing require a 45-day public comment period and the comments have to be satisfactorily responded to, and a completely separate agency "checks the work". If you want to require a form that looks a certain way to get your driver's license you have to go to public comment. If you want a question added to that form you have to go to public comment. The basis for this is that it creates a more transparent and democratic process where the public gets a chance to have their say. Some counties and cities have similar processes, again, it varies. The general thought, although I can certainly think of times I would have preferred not have dealt with it, is that this is overall a benefit - the public feels heard and gets buy-in, and the people writing the laws get different perspectives and are forced to address errors or mistakes or things they may not have considered. Legislators still exist, but they tend to create things more along the lines of commands, rather than specifics (although sometimes they do) - this is also considered ideal because legislators are not experts in most things, while the delegated agency is (or should be). Public comment for any of our FEDERAL projects require posting in our biggest publication (Star Ledger), and a 30 day public comment period. That is for any introductions of plans, funding recommendations or substantial amendments, anything that is below that threshold requires only a week long public comment period. In my experience around a dozen people actually show up to public hearings that were actual members of the public (our participating towns and agencies show up in solidarity and support most times) and I can't even remember the last time my boss had to respond to a public comment (since all comments have to be done in writing and recorded). I've seen less than 5 OPRA requests come to my office, and I've handled easily over 50 million dollars in projects of all types. This includes the Stimulus funds that we got from the 2008 downturn. My point is that this a speed bump, not a road block to changes. For the most part the public does not get involved in projects, and the entire process is somewhat archaic (who reads newspapers?). In the past couple of years we also post our plans and stuff on our website but also who just peruses County websites? The public largely does not know what their Government is doing or spending money on and it's not for the lack of it being disclosed, it's that the public does not engage with government much at all. This is extremely amplified at the local level, where unless you live in a HUGE city your town hall meetings probably have a handful of people who attend outside of the occasional thing that gets the public pissed. A lot of times, the council and mayor will just do that thing that pissed off the constituents anyway, regardless of how contentious or angry people get at meetings. In the largest City in the state (Newark) their public comment can go literally hours and if you asked any resident of the City, their voices are never truly heard, just recorded to meet OPRA requirements. I agree on the benefit, I just wish that the public actually participated and that more of the planning could involve input. Zachack posted:So you could get a state legislature to say "no more cops by 2021" but they are going to hand the responsibility of what that actually looks like and all the myriad rules and regulations and sub-agencies and whatever off to the state's DOJ, and that DOJ may, depending on the state, have to answer a lot of really hard questions from the public and do so satisfactorily, and some of that may require admitting that harm will increase a little in some areas while decreasing a lot in others. Oh I know this and I never said this was going to be easy, i'm just in the camp of that it's necessary. There are a whole lot of smart people out there and getting together all of these things can be done, even if there are hiccups along the way. As long as the idea is that this "force" is for the purposing of protecting and serving it will be infinitely better than what we currently have. *As we speak, Minneapolis is disbanding their police force so I guess this the discussion is going to shift more about what happens after you defund and disband police forces rather than should you do those things. Yuzenn fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 00:52
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Bellum posted:I guess burning down a police station worked holy poo poo actual good news though I'm looking forward to the Union winning an unfair labor practices lawsuit
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Jun 8, 2020 01:03
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