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enki42 posted:I can take on new information, and I've learned a lot and done a lot of reading thanks to this thread. If you bothered to read anything instead of getting to 500% aggro immediately, we've basically been arguing for the same steps (unless your standpoint is "completely abolish the police today with no plan" in which case lol). Crumbskull posted:If you can't read the word Police Abolition without interpreting it as 'remove all state and civic functions currently within the domain of police forces and replace them with nothinf' then you're either a baby brain or even worse you are being disingenuous You can't make this poo poo up.
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Jun 4, 2020 20:34
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CelestialScribe posted:This isn’t a helpful response and just appears to be hand waving a potential problem. If you think the scenario I outlined isn’t realistic, just say so. The police do not protect minorities from racists, they ARE the racists. I genuinely don't know how many times that has to be explained to you.
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Jun 4, 2020 22:01
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It is shocking how rapidly a single poster can drag an entire thread to a stop. My larger concern would be if there were any major changes to a court system. I assume cash bail would be abolished, but would our adversarial system (prosecution vs defendant) be replaced with something else? How would we elect judges, and what role would they play versus juries?
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Jun 4, 2020 23:14
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Rapulum_Dei posted:Why is the wage comparison is between a cop and Fire dept EMT and not a firefighter? Is it because a firefighter makes more than either? Here, I found the community you are talking about : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSBZGv5wzK4
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Jun 5, 2020 14:17
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Rapulum_Dei posted:How does that in any way relate to my post? Watch the clip. The police training, in this video, led a police officer to assault an elderly man and then an entire line of cops refused to assist him. The only one who stopped to help was the man WITHOUT officer training: The National Guard. In other words, officer training is the cause, not the cure.
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Jun 5, 2020 14:30
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Rapulum_Dei posted:if you think that clip shows why police officers don’t need to be more professional I don’t know what to tell you They were professionally lined into a group, the old man was very professionally pushed to the ground, and they very professionally walked right over his bleeding skull. That clip is the very definition of professionalism.
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Jun 5, 2020 14:45
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Rapulum_Dei posted:That’d be good. If it is too difficult to attack internalized racism directly, then the means by which police have to commit violence should be removed. You are, in fact, proving my earlier point.
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Jun 5, 2020 16:18
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Serious question: How does a state handle organized crime without a police force? Like, how would you stop the mob from taking over? This feels like a somewhat unique problem, in that it will require a large, organized system of violence to curb. Like, if a dude starts hurting people, you really don't need more than a half dozen armed officers to handle it. But a large criminal organization might be able to wrest control from a nonviolent state. What sort of solution would there be? Would it be an olde timey posse? To deputize and train civilians to prosecute an organized threat?
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Jun 8, 2020 03:33
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CelestialScribe posted:This is all great! But again, it’s not community policing. How would community policing deal with these situations? You need to release whatever your definition of "community policing" is, and accept the fact that it is not necessarily decentralized mob justice. The solutions that he proposed are indeed forms of community policing. I think you are having trouble grappling with the fact that it's something other than 24/7 lynch mobs and witch hunts, because that is the narrative that popular culture has driven into our collective skulls. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jun 8, 2020 |
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Jun 8, 2020 03:40
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Crumbskull posted:Setting aside the fact that our current system is notoriously bad at stopping the mob from taking over, can you clarify what you mean by the mob taking over? Creating their own monopoly on violence and setting up, for example, a protection racket or whatever violent method of extracting wealth. PS. I am in no way arguing against community policing, I find this particular problem to be of concern.
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Jun 8, 2020 03:52
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I guess my question reveals an internalized conservative narrative; an assumption that violence is inevitable. That should one violent party be removed, another will replace it. And I suppose there is some justification for it. Human history is mostly stories about powerful assholes violently bickering over power. However, it belies the notion that these assholes are in the minority. Most people were never nobility, or capitalists, or rulers of any sort. They just were. They did what they needed to survive. And if what they needed to survive was violence, it was due to a scarcity that is rapidly dissolving. Perhaps we are reaching a moment in history when poverty and hunger can be abolished. It would certainly be the first and most vital step towards removing violence from everyday life. In fact, I think it is impossible divorce the institutions of poverty and police, the latter being the enforcers of the former. Thanks for the earnest responses.
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Jun 8, 2020 13:27
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Jaxyon posted:Hey a friend of mine got a fairly detailed LAPD budget from the city council and it doesn't look like it's something easily found elsewhere. I'd like to see it.
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Jun 9, 2020 19:45
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Jaxyon posted:Edit: Here: http://ge.tt/85pGuW43 This link isn't working for me.
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Jun 9, 2020 21:03
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flashman posted:Once again no one has said police who attend noise complaints must be armed. Why argue against a position that no one holds? The point is that no agent of violence should show up at all. If this is really a noise complaint problem, there is no need for violence or threats. Just be adults and talk it out.
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Jun 11, 2020 14:25
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CelestialScribe posted:This is absurdly naive. Have you seriously never dealt with someone who refuses a request even when asked nicely? Um, yes. Like a lot. I’ve lived in apartments where people have raucous parties all the time. And sometimes I ask them to turn it down cuz it’s midnight on a Monday, and sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t. I have never, ever, resorted to threats of violence or violent authorities.
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Jun 11, 2020 14:35
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CelestialScribe posted:And let’s say they don’t. Why should they be allowed to continue to inflict their behaviour on their neighbours without recourse? Isn’t that just allowing a new power structure to take hold once they realise that nothing they do will have consequence? In no way is "loud parties" a new power structure. God, I regret taking you off ignore and engaging in good faith.
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Jun 11, 2020 14:39
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Vahakyla posted:Quite honestly I feel like you might live on a neighborhood thah is really nice. 1. If that were true, then you have successfully proven that police does not prevent crime because people are not necessarily rational actors. 2. Don't pretend to know where people ITT have or have not lived. People resolve their differences all the time without violence.
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Jun 11, 2020 15:48
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flashman posted:Ok you are right. I need to alter my statement be coercion backstopped by incarceration or homelessness then. It seems to me a distinction without a difference though. Driving people into homelessness will necessarily increase crime, not reduce it.
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Jun 11, 2020 19:16
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adhuin posted:On counterpoint, if the law enforcement is non-existant, then landlords and other rich probably can afford armed thugs to enforce their will and collect their debts. Those armed thugs are currently called "cops." Jokes aside, there is a very large difference between a private security force and state sponsored violence.
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Jun 11, 2020 20:22
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CelestialScribe posted:I think part of my friction in wanting to understand practicalities more is that some posters here have much more faith in adults to resolve disputes peacefully. My biased personal experience doesn't give me as much faith. I think this requires a justification as to why an outside, violent authority is more capable of resolving disputes than the community involved. Especially when that violent authority is incredibly biased against non-white people.
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Jun 11, 2020 23:55
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flashman posted:I have elucidated what I think the police should look like in a previous post, "being subjected to brutal policing" is not what I'm talking about, I am arguing that a force tasked with enforcement of the states demands via coercion is neccessary. It cheapens your good arguments to use hyperbole like that. The problem is that the state demands poverty. In order for the wealthy to acquire their absurd wealth, that money has to be extracted from somewhere. Specifically, it is extracted from extremely low wages combined with reduced public services through legal and illegal tax evasion. Inevitably, those hurt most by these systems will rebel through crime or riots, and that's why you need police. Your example of drug use is perfect for this. Nobody deals drugs cuz its fun, they do it for profit. It is one of the few ways they can lift themselves out of poverty through a job that is neither demeaning nor underpaid. The idea that enforcement necessarily reduces crime ignores both the cause and reality of enforcement. Because, let's be honest, most crimes are never solved.
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Jun 13, 2020 12:44
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flashman posted:This seems an indictment of modern democracy rather than the police though. If the police are performing their duty as the enforcement arm of the states will appropriately then the answer is to change the states will, not the police. It is an indictment of capitalism, not democracy. Never forget that the earliest forms of policing in the United States were slave patrols.
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Jun 13, 2020 14:10
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flashman posted:Democracy is not guaranteed to produce the outcomes you desire. Like slavery? Seems like whenever it produces lovely outcomes, it requires systemic state violence to enforce it. Like the slave patrols. Maybe abolishing state violence would necessarily bring about a more equitable system.
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Jun 13, 2020 15:32
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flashman posted:A collection of warlords does not seem a preferable option. You have 0 proof that a collection of warlords would result when state violence is removed. In fact, the United States existed for over a century without any police at all. Modern policing was only widespread around the 1880s in the United States. I might remind you that the rise of organized crime (warlords) were a direct result of police violence directed at civilians (prohibition). Frankly, I don't think people will risk their lives to live in a constant state of warfare if they weren't starving. And food is downright plentiful right now even if the distribution is lopsided.
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Jun 13, 2020 16:58
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flashman posted:Ah yes the idyllic Pinkerton era. Edit: Deleted. It's obvious you have no interest in actually discussing the issue, so I'll disengage.
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Jun 13, 2020 17:21
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CocoaNuts posted:Article explains how "Defund the police" as a slogan doesn't have popular support, but asking people in polls if they would support taking some money from police budgets and putting it into homelessness, mental health and domestic violence counselling results in much greater agreement. I'd imagine that polling for "defund the police" before these riots doesn't exist, because these activists have started the conversation. That is what leadership looks like. I know, it is an alien concept to us Americans.
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Jun 20, 2020 02:49
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flashman posted:What is the "no coercive government force" solution to the plague of fireworks that the police have stopped doing anything about? Super duper weird. https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1274978506250862593?s=20 https://twitter.com/AnneMarcelleN/status/1274540444253388800
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Jun 22, 2020 16:38
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flashman posted:A gun is not neccessary to have the power of coercion. So you gonna just wander the streets asking the teens nicely to stop firing them off? I posted two proofs that it's the cops who are setting off the fireworks. You can engage with that.
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Jun 22, 2020 17:08
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flashman posted:I'm sorry two random twitter accounts do not equal proof to me, particularly considering you've got plenty of first hand accounts in uspol saying they recognize the teens setting them off, coupled with the low price of fireworks this year. The conspiracy theory that it's police psyops doesn't hold much water. So actual videos of cops setting off fireworks are not proof that cops are setting off fireworks?
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Jun 22, 2020 17:10
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Watching awesome threads like these devolve due to relentless bad faith posting is exactly what's wrong with this forum. Don't you threaten me with a good time.
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Jun 27, 2020 03:08
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Beefeater1980 posted:I still want to know what gets done with all the police when they’ve been defunded and sacked. A lot of angry young men trained to use weapons suddenly being unemployed is usually a problem in itself. Use that money to maintain/build infrastructure and employ those cops to do it. There, are we done with this nonsense yet?
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Jul 11, 2020 12:58
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Yuzenn posted:There are plenty of regularly unemployed people who need these jobs, they get to compete with them, they aren't a veteran they don't get preference. Look, if the state is going to create a bunch of unemployment, it is the state's responsibility to fix that unemployment. Frankly, I'd be happier to exile the pigs or prosecute them for the crimes they committed while on the force.
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Jul 11, 2020 13:46
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Vahakyla posted:ACAB is about the institution. A lot of people seem to havr a hard time with it because they read it as Every Single Cop Is Hitler. It's also about the actual individuals. If your job is to brutalize human beings, then you are a bastard. Anyone who isn't a bastard is chased out of the institution because they would be unable to do their job. The institution itself selects and shapes the individual into a bastard. So, to clarify, let's play a game called Find the Decent Cop: https://twitter.com/WBFO/status/1268712530358292484 That's a line of 30 individuals who watched an old man nearly bleed to death out of his ears. In fact, when one tried to stop and help, he was shoved away. They are ALL bastards. Every loving one of them.
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Sep 11, 2020 03:15
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Vahakyla posted:I genuinely believe that very strong accountability and prosecution accuracy would solve most law enforcement issues after we get away from the beat police attempting to enforce minor rules. There’s no non-stop collision path, and fuckery is swiftly dealt with. The problem is systemic. At the end of the day, wealthy people are going to need violence to protect “their” property from the needs of the many. Landlords will require violence to evict a tenant. Banks will require violence in order to force people out of their houses. Stores require violence to stop the hungry from eating. At the end of the day, inequality MUST be forced upon a populace especially a desperate one, and capitalism is a system that not only necessitates inequality but whose sole focus is to create as wide a gap as possible.
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Sep 14, 2020 23:43
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Any actual progress requires people actually support progress, something which our politicians have repeatedly spoken out against.
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Oct 15, 2020 23:38
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The problem with trying to get rid of policing is that it's inexorably tied to the capitalist need for poverty. Someone has to evict people, otherwise how will landlords force you to pay rent? Therefore, as long as there are landlords there will be cops who make people homeless. Same goes for food, medicine, etc. If you make an entire economic system that funnels money into as few pockets as possible, you need an oppressive, violent force.Gabriel S. posted:I am someone who believes that while Law Enforcement is going to be integral to any society there's a shocking lack of accountability from these organization in the United States. And it's getting worse. Not just that either, there's a bizarre lack of respect towards civilians, sexism, racism, classism, etc. but also against their own Democratic Governments. To this very day law enforcement unions even in California still fund anti-marijuana campaigns and criminal sentencing reform for the most benign offenses. The only thing that's new is that there are more cameras to capture it all. Under normal circumstances, the only public source for information on police actions were the police themselves. Now that the means of information distribution are publicly owned, we are seeing the terror happen in real time. But it was always there.
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Dec 3, 2020 03:48
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Gabriel S. posted:Please read up on the consent decrees in Chicago and Baltimore. This is was an extremely big deal. This is not a helpful contribution to the discussion. In what way do consent decrees alter the way that police actions are captured on film?
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Dec 3, 2020 04:21
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Jaxyon posted:I didn't ask you if you like the slogan. Well, it’s an incredibly complex question that requires an incredibly complex answer. “Defund” could mean dozens of different things up to and including abolition.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:43
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Jaxyon posted:I didn't ask about abolition, which I support. No, there is nothing binary about it. Reducing police budgets by one dollar and abolishing them completely both fall under “defund”.
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Dec 3, 2020 05:51
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fool of sound posted:The point is, it's not a slogan, it's a strategy. I agree with your overall message, but there needs to be some amount of quantification before anyone can honestly answer such a complicated question. Personally, I think "disarm" is a far more coherent and succinct goal. It can mean complete abolition like TOM proposes, or it can be more milquetoast "just take their guns away" style. Either way, it would be a vast improvement over our current state.
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Dec 3, 2020 19:27
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