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Hey a friend of mine got a fairly detailed LAPD budget from the city council and it doesn't look like it's something easily found elsewhere. Anyone have any interest in it?
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Jun 9, 2020 19:01
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I'd like to see it. Edit: Here: http://ge.tt/85pGuW43 Jaxyon fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Jun 9, 2020 |
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Jun 9, 2020 19:46
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CelestialScribe posted:Police do solve some crimes, after all. Not really. Most of police work has nothing at all to do with solving crimes. Or preventing crimes. TV and movies aren't real.
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Jun 11, 2020 01:22
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CelestialScribe posted:What is the mechanism by which some crimes are solved then in the current system? Most aren't. Especially if the victim is a brown person or a woman. The current system isn't about justice, it's about imprisoning people. Police aren't even involved in the majority of theft, and by that I don't mean "not called" I mean it's literally it's not even in their purview. The vast majority of police work could be done better by social workers.
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Jun 11, 2020 04:16
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CelestialScribe posted:I didn't say most are. I said some are. Are you expecting that we tear down all police departments in a single day, and then just sit there like "oh poo poo somebody did a crime we didn't think of this"? This is similar to assuming reparations are just cash handouts everyone gets on a Friday and thats it. Are you seriously asking this question or are you asking people their opinions on what they would ideally do?
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Jun 11, 2020 04:37
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CelestialScribe posted:I'm literally asking, what does the transition look like? How would it work? I literally asked that exact question. There's a lot of writing elsewhere so I'm not going to go into detail but the outline would be: - Dramatically scale back police force and heavily regulate it oversee it - Decriminalize much of the police busy-work - increase social funding - increase social workforce - As police work is phased out phase in a new, much better trained and planned security/investigation team that doesn't have it's roots in slave catching - as most "crimes" aren't murder or violent assault, this new group is much smaller. As for exactly how this transition goes? I don't know, I can't predict the future, we're not there yet. Like, from an organizational standpoint, i'd assume as you're eliminating the police you'd have your new investigative people running in parallel for a short time and then pull the plug on the old PD, but I don't see how getting that granular is relevant.
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Jun 11, 2020 05:03
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CelestialScribe posted:Cool, thread over then. What do you need more detail on?
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Jun 11, 2020 05:06
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CelestialScribe posted:I just think it's ironic that in a thread specifically marked for discussion about how a world without policing would work, what it would like, etc, that everyone instead just says "read these books", and "I don't know what it would be like, we aren't there yet". I mean...great, what is there left to discuss? It's a complex subject and you sound like you're not actually interested in discussing it, but rather concern trolling it. What happens in the transition to single payer? Is there a point where we unhook the patients from the old system and plug them into the new Government respirator? Why won't people answer my question?
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Jun 11, 2020 05:17
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CelestialScribe posted:...do you understand there are complex consequences of moving from a major system to another? That's a really weird comparison to make. It's not just as easy as, "you're on the government plan now!" And even if it was from an individual's perspective, it still has huge ramifications for companies, tax ramifications, policies, etc. I've asked you what you want more details on. I understand that there's a huge amount of complexity, I've already said that. What part do you want more detail on?
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Jun 11, 2020 05:34
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I directly asked the dude for what he wanted more detail on, he disappeared. And now he's onto noise complaints. Guys he might not be arguing in good faith.
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Jun 11, 2020 17:44
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CelestialScribe posted:I’m not denying that at all. At the same time, they do solve murders. Maybe they only solve 40% - but are you comfortable living in a world where anyone can kill anyone, with potentially no consequence from society? We were rightfully horrified by Ahmaud Arbery. If we got rid of homocide detectives tomorrow, crimes like that would happen more, not less. The stat for Chicago PD on shootings is like 5%, and they literally run torture sites to force black people to confess to crimes they didn't commit. The police should scare you more. Homicide work isn't like you see on TV or the movies.
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Jun 13, 2020 21:57
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chinigz posted:The 'what about rape' paragraph doesn't really answer it's own question, just points to a bunch of bad things and handwaves. What would society do with reports of rape in absence of the police? I guarantee rates of sexual assault will increase once the chance of getting caught goes even lower. You're full of poo poo. Most women don't go to police now. The chance of getting caught now is nearly nonexistent. A friend of mine who's a multiple rape survivor said the one time she went to the cops, they made her feel more unsafe than her rapist did, and that was her last time going to them. 
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Jun 13, 2020 22:01
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CelestialScribe posted:Right! So lets talk about that structure! Bullshit. I asked you more than once what you wanted to have more detail about, and you disappeared for a day and never responded to me.
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Jun 13, 2020 22:36
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CelestialScribe posted:My biggest problems with police right now is that they’re simply trying to do too many things and without proper training. If this is your biggest problem with the police right now then you aren't paying attention. Police just don't get frustrated with doing too many things and do a racism or start shooting people, and they have all the funds in the world to do all of those things and have the absolute best possible training. They simply have no interest in interacting with people in a constructive way or de-escalating situations. Institutionally, they are simply not set up to do any of that. The LAPD spending on police is massively larger than every social program the city of Los Angeles offers combined.
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Jun 13, 2020 23:55
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CelestialScribe posted:It seems everyone here really is convinced that if we got rid of all law enforcement tomorrow that communities would step up and provide better systems. (I said law enforcement, not police). You are generalizing much of the thread, without quoting anybody, and then explaining why you think the conversation is over. This makes you appear as if you're not interested in conversation but rather pretending to be. For instance, I don't know how many people here are talking about the abolition of law enforcement, they're talking about the abolition of police. I don't see anyone saying that laws should not be enforced, but rather laws that are simply created to aid the purpose of police(oppression of minorities and the poor) should be abolished. Laws regarding things that hurt people(assault and murder) should be enforced and we should strive to reduce those things. But modern policing is not at all set up for or interested in doing that.
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Jun 14, 2020 00:18
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Baron Porkface posted:I did not say this you liar. You didn't say exactly that, but you said Baron Porkface posted:I'd love if we could wash away our law enforcement problems with "social work" but I'm not convinced it's true. Why not?
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Jun 14, 2020 00:55
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flashman posted:It's an insanely circular argument here. Either you think man is fundamentally good and meeting the material needs of them will solve all crime and thus you don't need a coercive arm of the state or you don't and think you do. No one argues for the status quo but that is what everyone reverts to attacking. I think it would be more accurate to say that some people are having trouble understanding what law enforcement looks like when it's not formed in such a way as our current incredibly broken policing. People say "abolish the police" because the police are bad and fundamentally broken. Social programs work to address the problems that cause crime, and are a solution that actually takes into account the fundamental goal of reducing crime. Something police are not set up to do, or have any interest in doing. I don't believe anyone is expecting a crimeless utopia, they're talking about creating something to actually reduce crime rather than just respond to it, which is where we are now.
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Jun 14, 2020 01:15
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't disagree with that. So we're moving from talking about abolishing police to now banning any show that portrays police in a way that we don't want? We should move away from showing police in an inaccurate way to glorify them and justify their ridiculous budgets. Police shows and movies aren't real dude. Almost everything you're seeing is made up and feeds a bizarre idea white America has that police aren't a horribly broken and racist institution. quote:Sorry, is this the abolish police thread, or the tankie thread? I'm sorry we implied the police might be bad in the Abolish Police thread. Don't clutch the pearls too hard you might scratch them.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:04
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Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Actually people do, tons do, and it's been studied. Media influences people and that's hardly a controversial thing to say. I guarantee you that unless you work in medicine, there's a ton of things that are just completely made up that you believe are true about treating people. Unless you're a gun nut, odds are you believe silencers work way better than they do. I've shown a ton of people videos that apparently shock them on that subject. quote:Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody. Both of these things are propaganda.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:22
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CelestialScribe posted:100%. We shouldn't be banning lovely television shows because we feel it could influence culture in a way we don't like. Yeah we should. quote:If that's the case, then we should be banning poo poo for The West Wing because it portrays Republicans as people who can be reasoned with. I agree, we should it's done incredible amounts of harm to politically gullible people.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:26
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fool of sound posted:I don't think that it's worth fixating on specifically 'banning' the shows, CS. I mean what's likely to happen is they should be reduced heavily at the network level without involving the government but CS has now moved his goalposts from disagreeing to semantics.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:27
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CelestialScribe posted:So, what are you suggesting then? That television networks can't broadcast it? That it can't be sold? That people can't have it? You need to be more specific with the word "ban" and not rely on people to understand the particular nuance of what you mean. Get TV networks to agree to not show blatant cop propaganda. It doesn't have to be a government decree. The point is, what they are showing now is propaganda, and is damaging.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:35
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silence_kit posted:It seems a little paradoxical to me to say that law enforcement is not a necessary government function and then in the same breath call for unpopular bans. Who's arguing against law enforcement in this thread?
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Jun 18, 2020 02:39
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silence_kit posted:lmao Sounds like somebody confused "abolish police" with "end any enforcement of laws" because they watched enough copaganda that they can only conceptualize law enforcement through our current model.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:42
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silence_kit posted:Oh, so you when you and others in this thread say that you want to abolish law enforcement, you really mean that you want to reform law enforcement. Ok, well that is a billion times more reasonable position Who's saying that? Even OF above, who was making a joke, said he still wants law enforcement of capitalists.
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Jun 18, 2020 02:50
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Gabriel S. posted:Aren't they already doing this? COPS is cancelled and studios are "re-evaluating" how figures of authority are displayed. The NY Times had a huge article how Law and Order often had this them were good cops were held back by the "system" and it was okay to occasionally go around that. Yes cancelling LivePD and COPS is a great start, but there's so much cop show poo poo, and many shows that aren't strictly based in reality(fantasy/scifi) that use the same tropes.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:14
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Crumbskull posted:Law and Order absolutely is propoganda. And people absolutely internalize things they see in fictional shows. Like, people think all sorts of stuff about forensic "science" and nearly all of it is totally unscientific crap.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:15
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CelestialScribe posted:I don't think anyone disagrees with this, but we shouldn't be banning House or Grey's Anatomy or whatever. Yes tons of people disagree with this. People disagreed in this thread. People go into careers based on bullshit cop propaganda.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:22
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Also apropos to this thread, apparently Atlanta PD is trying to do a work stoppage right now, because one of their people might actually see some repercussions for murdering someone.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:22
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Trapick posted:This is the part I find incredibly spurious. Do you think Scalia was driven to think torture was good because he watched 24? I think it's infinitely more likely he thought that anyway (because he was a garbage human) and happened to like 24 and use it as an example. To say there's any causal link there is a really strong claim. It doesn't really matter what Scalia, noted dipshit, was thinking because the post you quoted was trying to help you understand that your original position was bad. There are many studies that show TV, even fiction, influences perceptions and opinions. Here's one of them. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0093854815604180
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Jun 18, 2020 03:44
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24 is actually a great example because many many people think torture is an effective means of getting information, and it turns up in TV, Movies, video games, and text. And every single expert on it says it's incredibly bad at doing that. But basically everyone thinks it's actually effective, if distasteful.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:50
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Also, I again point out that the Atlanta police are busy abolishing themselves while you argue with concern trolls.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:51
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Trapick posted:Right, except nobody was saying TV has no impact, rather that treating it like dangerous propaganda that literally needs to be banned is ridiculous and counterproductive. word? Trapick posted:Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit.
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Jun 18, 2020 03:57
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OwlFancier posted:What are they doing? Good news is always welcome Per USPOL and twitter, they're doing a work stoppage and refusing to answer calls.
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Jun 18, 2020 04:01
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Trapick posted:Here are two statements. Since you posted that after I said: Jaxyon posted:We should move away from showing police in an inaccurate way to glorify them and justify their ridiculous budgets. I'll accept that you have revised your position and conceded to mine, since your post doesn't make any sense if you held your new position at that time
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Jun 18, 2020 04:08
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Still Dismal posted:It’s not just people who defend the status quo that think this though. The number of people conflating “physical enforcement of laws” with “American policing as it currently exists” who are pro abolition/defunding/whatever is nuts. Why would you lock yourself into the position? Not that I've seen. What IS common seems to be liberals who agree with reform but cant wrap their head around the difference trying to walk back what they see as an extreme position.
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Jun 18, 2020 09:43
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Zachack posted:I don't know what it's like these days but growing up in the foothills of Los Angeles the answer was the cops/firefighters/other descended on the area and used police helicopters to track down where it was coming from due to fire risk. They didn't go after "safe and sane" fireworks but if you had the good stuff from TJ (which for whatever reason seemed a lot less common then) then they came down like a hammer. Both the fireworks and the copters are still there you probably just live in a whiter part of town. I'd bet I have more helicopters in my neighborhood on a given day than any of the high fire risk areas. That fleet is mostly there to harass people of color.
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Jun 22, 2020 18:32
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Vahakyla posted:As to why they have loving sworn officers with guns doing all that is the discussion we have here. It's because we keep giving them more money to do all the things you said but with a gun, tell them to fear for their lives at all times, and that minorities are out to kill them. Nobody can afford to do any of those things because the police spent the money on tanks.
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Jun 22, 2020 21:48
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Yuzenn posted:Exactly this; NYC's police budget is three times more than we spend on homelessness (which is a thing you can outright solve if you throw enough money at it) for the ENTIRE COUNTRY. This is an insane statistic from a broken country.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:31
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Los Angeles update: - We're cutting $150 million of the LAPD budget - We're slashing the school cop budget and taking them out of schools - Chief school cop resigned over the budget cut. - Council has voted to move towards replacing the LAPD. A decent start. Not where it needs to be yet, at all. But LA is huge and anything is still a big deal.
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Jul 2, 2020 21:49
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