F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

Glad to have found this thread. It amazes me that this is the solution that Biden's campaign has decided to go with. This is not enough, and it shocked me to read this.

https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1268349248170536962

I'm just continuously amazed at how terrible our structural components are with dealing with change. We're just frozen in time with a societal system that comes from slave owners that would routinely ingest mercury as medicine.

I also wanted to share this book I heard about called The End of Policing, a digital copy is available for free at the link.

https://www.versobooks.com/books/2426-the-end-of-policing

quote:

Recent years have seen an explosion of protest against police brutality and repression�most dramatically in Ferguson, Missouri, where longheld grievances erupted in violent demonstrations following the police killing of Michael Brown. Among activists, journalists, and politicians, the conversation about how to respond and improve policing has focused on accountability, diversity, training, and community relations. Unfortunately, these reforms will not produce results, either alone or in combination. The core of the problem must be addressed: the nature of modern policing itself. �Broken windows� practices, the militarization of law enforcement, and the dramatic expansion of the police�s role over the last forty years have created a mandate for officers that must be rolled back.

This book attempts to spark public discussion by revealing the tainted origins of modern policing as a tool of social control. It shows how the expansion of police authority is inconsistent with community empowerment, social justice�even public safety. Drawing on groundbreaking research from across the world, and covering virtually every area in the increasingly broad range of police work, Alex Vitale demonstrates how law enforcement has come to exacerbate the very problems it is supposed to solve.

In contrast, there are places where the robust implementation of policing alternatives�such as legalization, restorative justice, and harm reduction�has led to reductions in crime, spending, and injustice. The best solution to bad policing may be an end to policing.

I'm planning to read this whenever I'm not protesting or reading the forums for updates, the amount of events that are happening every day seem to simply take over my entire day.

COVID-19 fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jun 4, 2020

# ¿ Jun 4, 2020 02:20

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 13:47

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

I don�t know if you�ve ever implemented major process changes but people tend to get pissed off if they aren�t consulted and aren�t part of a process.

What you hear me saying is �abolition won�t work because too many people disagree with it�.

What I�m actually saying is �you will have broader support for abolition if you articulate how some existing processes will work in a community where police are abolished�.

For instance, take my example of a noise complaint. How is that dealt with in a situation with no police? If someone doesn�t feel safe confronting another in person, who do they call? What happens if the confrontation turns violent?

These aren�t ridiculous scenarios to address, and the failure to do so in favour of �gently caress it and figure it out later� is just not going to win abolition broad support. Better to spend the time articulating what the society will look like as much as you reasonably can. That will bring more people on board - and the more people you have who feel they have been consulted, the more successful police abolition would be.

As someone who lives in NYC and has dealt with filing noise complaints for years, cops have nothing to do with this . What an utterly disingenuous "what-about"-ism.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 05:47

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

This is a really weird protest. Cops are involved in noise complaints in a huge number of places. I shouldn't have to point out to you that not every city is like New York.

In a model where police hand those responsibilities over to another discipline, this situation is easily solved: they approach the neighbours instead of the cops.

Under a community policing model, what does that look like? How do you approach a neighbour who says, "gently caress you, I'm not turning it down?" in that type of model?

This is the type of question anyone will ask if they are curious/concerned by easily swayed into police abolition. It's not out really disingenuous to ask this sort of question, and if you think that's the case, then you're going to get absolutely nowhere in convincing people that this is the right thing to do. Every time they ask, "so what do I do if..." and you reply, "gently caress you, that's why", then they're not really going to listen to anything you have to say.

Can you any specific cities that rely on police officers to fake care of noise complaints? I�m actually interested in this, and it seems like you think cops actually do some work to solve community problems, which is once again a laughable proposition.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:06

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

https://mobile.twitter.com/zellieim...1587%23lastpost

Hm yes, this is fine.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:10

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

I can only speak from personal experience, but I know it�s been done in Denver.

I don�t particularly understand why this is a surprising proposition to you?

I mean, forget noise complaints if that really bothers you. I can think of examples where people get into an altercation and it turns violent.

Under a model where police pass responsibilities to other departments, this is clear cut: they address the issue. A social worker might be there, certainly anyone would be unarmed, etc.

Under a community policing model, I don�t see that situation ending well in a large number of communities. Does a complete abolition future contain explanations for how to solve that?

I understand your inclination will be to say �it�s better than the current system so gently caress you�, but considering this forum is for you know, discussing and debating, I�d be interested in a substantial answer.

Have you read the thread? I made a post about this in the first page. Yes, of course many people have imagined and theorized what a community without racist corrupt police would look like.

Guys like these shouldn�t be allowed unlimited power and weapons.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/paterson-press/2019/03/29/all-6-accused-paterson-nj-cops-came-police-academy-class-2014/3310822002/

COVID-19 fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Jun 7, 2020

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:20

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

Holy poo poo that suicidal man that those cops filmed themselves brutally beating actually ended up killing himself.

Another great example of the outcomes of the system CelestialScribe espouses.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/n...ead/2775587001/

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:32

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

I have repeatedly, repeatedly made comments in support of police abolition and providing different departments and agencies with the authority to do more.

Mods, how is this allowed? We�re just allowed to misconstrue others positions and outright lie about them?

My precious post literally contains support from me for abolishing police. At this point you�re just refusing to engage because I don�t know, you�re angry or something.

Huh? I lust have misunderstood your posts then, because it sounds like you�re weary of a system that lacks agencies with authority to enforce laws and regulations.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:44

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

I believe a lot of communities would. I also believe some communities would end up killing each other.

it�s really quite telling that you think white people aren�t already doing this to everyone else with the help of the police and military.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:50

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

I want to distribute police responsibilities to other agencies who could deal with most situations in better ways. Eg social workers, unarmed response, etc. how is that supporting the status quo in any shape or form?

�Police responsibilities� are simply oppressing PoC and poor people, shifting these responsibilities to other departments with different names and uniforms are still going to end up with a racist system and oppressed people.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 08:53

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

Saagonsa posted:

I'm in favor of replacing the police, but "cops don't currently deal with noise complaints" is a loving insane thing to post. My brother was setting off homemade firecrackers in my backyard a few years ago and then an hour later a county cop showed up to yell as us for it. So yeah, there are absolutely places where they do that (but they shouldn't)

Fair enough, I envision �noise complaints� being noise from apartments nearby and not fireworks/explosives though.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 09:00

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

CelestialScribe posted:

Is there any situation you can imagine where that isn�t the case? Or is decentralised community policing the only realistic scenario you see?

I think addressing the root causes of systemic issues would go a lot further than simply dealing with the outcomes of those societal problems. For instance, instead of having a uniformed agency deal with homeless people having psychotic episodes in a public area, we should give people homes and free psychiatric help.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 09:03

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 10, 2024 13:47

COVID-19: Mar 2, 2020; by Cyrano4747

Verviticus posted:

there's more than one reason for a noise complaint its not all just like "my upstairs neighbour is walking around with loud shoes"

Right, which is why I said �fair enough�, after I realized my previous statement wasn�t accurate.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 09:04

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread