F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Cuntellectual posted:

For the people who genuinely consider 'abolish the police' as an end goal... And then what, like the title says?

Start from scratch and build a better system; separate out their work into different aspects, like jobs for social workers and crisis counselors, investigators and detectives, traffic enforcement, interrogators/interviewers, drug treatment specialists, community patrol, etc. All of those should be civilians, unarmed, trained, to professional. Then have a group of people to do low risk arrests, evictions, etc. that are either unarmed or very lightly armed. Then have a group of armed people who only come out on arrests of known violent people, active shooters, etc.

That's off the top of my head. But something like that, yeah.

# ¿ Jun 6, 2020 23:55

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 07:05

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

CelestialScribe posted:

For instance, take my example of a noise complaint. How is that dealt with in a situation with no police? If someone doesn�t feel safe confronting another in person, who do they call? What happens if the confrontation turns violent?

Ok, I'll play along: you call 311 or something, the city sends a bylaw enforcement agent, who is not armed, but does has the authority to levy fines if necessary. They go to the location, speak to the people making excessive noise, attempt to de-escalate. If that works, great, they're let off with a warning. If they don't comply, they get a fine. If the bylaw enforcement agent feels threatened, they can call for a "bodyguard" - who is trained in self-defense, possibly armored, certainly does not have a firearm. Maybe a taser. Maybe.

This may not be like, an ideal abolitionist-style solution, but I think it's much better than two cops with guns showing up.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 04:45

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

COVID-19 posted:

As someone who lives in NYC and has dealt with filing noise complaints for years, cops have nothing to do with this . What an utterly disingenuous "what-about"-ism.

This is probably something that varies a bunch by city, so it may not be disingenuous. In my city it would be cops right now.

Cops currently get a lot of odd jobs that could be better done by others (even like, outside the whole gently caress the police stuff). As an example, when my dad died of a heart attack (at home) it was a cop that stuck around and waited with my mom (and me, when I got there) for the coroner and stuff. He was fine (we're white and middle class, so of course he was), but like, we didn't need someone armed to do that.

# ¿ Jun 7, 2020 06:46

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Cpt_Obvious posted:

You need to release whatever your definition of "community policing" is, and accept the fact that it is not necessarily decentralized mob justice. The solutions that he proposed are indeed forms of community policing. I think you are having trouble grappling with the fact that it's something other than 24/7 lynch mobs and witch hunts, because that is the narrative that popular culture has driven into our collective skulls.

Alternatively, a pretty common definition of "community policing" I see is about police building close ties within the community - which may or may not be worthwhile, but seems to be at odds with police abolition. So I'd like to know what people think when they say/hear "community policing".

# ¿ Jun 8, 2020 03:53

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

I legit don't understand "we didn't have police before 18xx, we can do that again" - do you think rapes and murders didn't happen, probably even more often than today? I'll accept completely that police cause or create a bunch of crime, and our lovely capitalist society and income disparity create a bunch too, but making sure everyone's material needs are met is both a giant ask and not going to solve everything. Look at Harvey Weinstein, for example - by all accounts he had all the money and influence he wanted, was raised fine, etc. and he's still a rapist rear end in a top hat. Clearly our current system didn't handle him well - he got away with poo poo for years - but how does having no police improve that? How does "Building community-based interventions that address harms without relying on police" work with people who legitimately don't have any desire to stop committing violence on people? If it doesn't, and the answer is "yah serial killers and rapists are going to be a issue, probably they'll end up getting lynched" I'm a bit uncomfortable with that.

Can we not come up with something better than both a) the current system and b) what we had prior to the current system?

# ¿ Jun 13, 2020 18:34

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Nobody thinks Law & Order is a realistic portrayal of the justice system just like no one thinks House is an accurate portrayal of the medical system or the X-Files of the FBI or whatever, it's entertainment, we all know it's bullshit. Tackle the actual propaganda in the news and poo poo, like parroting whatever BS the police provide and using the passive voice in every incident where a cop kills somebody.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 02:19

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

OwlFancier posted:

I literally posted a quote from a supreme court judge justifying torture by saying he watched 24 and thought it was cool and necessary. The causal link seems extremely clear.

This is the part I find incredibly spurious. Do you think Scalia was driven to think torture was good because he watched 24? I think it's infinitely more likely he thought that anyway (because he was a garbage human) and happened to like 24 and use it as an example. To say there's any causal link there is a really strong claim.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 03:41

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Jaxyon posted:

It doesn't really matter what Scalia, noted dipshit, was thinking because the post you quoted was trying to help you understand that your original position was bad.

There are many studies that show TV, even fiction, influences perceptions and opinions.

Here's one of them.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0093854815604180

Right, except nobody was saying TV has no impact, rather that treating it like dangerous propaganda that literally needs to be banned is ridiculous and counterproductive.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 03:53

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Jaxyon posted:

word?

Here are two statements.

Law & Order is not a realistic and accurate portrayal of the American justice system.

Watching crime dramas like Law & Order may slightly impact people's perception of how the police behave.

Those two statements are not in opposition. I suggest that nearly everyone watching crime dramas would agree with that first statement and know that they're sensationalized bullshit, even if watching them does subconsciously change how they view the police. Is that clear enough?

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 04:03

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

Jaxyon posted:

I'll accept that you have revised your position and conceded to mine, since your post doesn't make any sense if you held your new position at that time

There was an ongoing discussion, so assuming I was replying directly to your post is a bit odd. Your point seemed to be "fiction isn't realistic and that's bad" which...ok? I thought my point was clear enough, but whatever, it's well clarified now.

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 04:26

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

litany of gulps posted:

There's not a word of anything I've said that's inaccurate, you lovely little baby.

To paint CelestialScribe as choosing to "defend the police at all costs" is inaccurate - he directly, unequivocally agreed with all but the last paragraph of what E-Tank quoted in the post above yours. Click the post and see. If you think CS is pushing the "pro-cop" agenda what the hell do you think actual bootlickers are going to say?

# ¿ Jun 18, 2020 06:43

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 07:05

Trapick: Apr 17, 2006

ElCondemn posted:

Have you ever called police? Do you know how many calls they get for things like noise? How about how many calls they ignore?

Normally police do not enforce noise ordinances unless they have literally nothing else to do.

This depends a lot on where you're talking about - the NYPD may not handle noise complaints, but in lots of small or mid-sized cities they certainly do.

# ¿ Jun 22, 2020 17:44

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > F The Police, and then what? A police/justice abolition thread