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InitialDave posted:Dropping "retard" from the general vernacular is fine, but there's no reason why people shouldn't be able to use "oval office" as freely as they do "gently caress". why? sure, in much of the world, "retard" is pretty vile, but in New England everyone uses it and it's fine, they know it's not actually meant to be demeaning to people with disabilities. RIP Paul Walker posted:At first I thought this was a bit much until someone informed me of how it's used in the darker corners of the internet. Now I'm 100% fine with it. Assholes ruined the word. yeah if you're not aware, "oval office" has been heavily co-opted by incels and people who advocated for and perpetrate violence against women
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Jun 11, 2020 13:46
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:why? sure, in much of the world, "retard" is pretty vile, but in New England everyone uses it and it's fine, they know it's not actually meant to be demeaning to people with disabilities. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah if you're not aware, "oval office" has been heavily co-opted by incels and people who advocated for and perpetrate violence against women
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Jun 11, 2020 14:05
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i struggle to understand how "oval office" isn't a gender based insult
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Jun 11, 2020 14:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:i struggle to understand how "oval office" isn't a gender based insult The point is, it's not used as a gender based insult. It's just an insult/curse word, you can use it in reference to anyone/anything, and in this use it's separate to its use as a slang term for vagina.
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Jun 11, 2020 14:45
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This is actually quite amusing watching americans struggle to understand something as simple as the word oval office
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Jun 11, 2020 14:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah if you're not aware, "oval office" has been heavily co-opted by incels and people who advocated for and perpetrate violence against women Incels are only known to insanely online people and their usage of the word does not have any impact whatsoever on its general use
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Jun 11, 2020 14:57
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InitialDave posted:Do you struggle with "dick", "knob", "tit", "bollocks" etc etc? yeah i mean the closest analogue in US insult catalog is probably pussy? in that yeah, when i've said it, it's definitely separate from a slang term for vagina, but it existed first as a slang term for vagina and draws a line between being a woman or feminine being bad. therefore i have tried to not use that word anymore and instead replaced it with something else! i don't get why y'all are so attached.
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Jun 11, 2020 15:11
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fridge corn posted:This is actually quite amusing watching americans struggle to understand something as simple as the word oval office For us Americans reading the down under comments it’s kind of like watching a naive 10 year old talk about wearing their heritage not hate hat  Edit, side note: I’ve always preferred to limit the use of the word so it retained its offensive power. The overuse of the word gently caress has really watered down the impact. Joke’s on me, assholes ruined it instead. Someone on an OG nerd forum from the late 90’s had “vulgarity is the crutch of the inarticulate motherfucker” in their signature and it always stuck with me. I think that same guy is on here, or at least was years ago. RIP Paul Walker fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Jun 11, 2020 |
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Jun 11, 2020 15:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I don't get why y'all are so attached. For my part, I really hate the term "queer", it properly grates on me as a homophobic term, and the adoption of it by the LGBT community doesn't change that. But it just means I don't use it myself, other people using it in the context it has for them isn't for me to worry about.
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Jun 11, 2020 15:49
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edit: you know what, never mind. this is a pointless discussion.
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Jun 11, 2020 15:53
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:"retard" as a word is a curse word we use and its use as such is not ableist I'm not bothered.
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Jun 11, 2020 15:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:yeah i mean the closest analogue in US insult catalog is probably pussy? in that yeah, when i've said it, it's definitely separate from a slang term for vagina, but it existed first as a slang term for vagina and draws a line between being a woman or feminine being bad. therefore i have tried to not use that word anymore and instead replaced it with something else! i don't get why y'all are so attached. I've already made the point that pussy is a more problematic insult than oval office
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Jun 11, 2020 16:31
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Lol dunno if this custom title is from this thread or another one
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Jun 11, 2020 16:34
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InitialDave posted:Take that up with the person telling you it's use is probatable. orrrrrr you could just be an adult and stop using it? why is that such a horrific outcome?
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Jun 11, 2020 16:46
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Also thanks for gendering me in this custom title fuckface 
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Jun 11, 2020 16:47
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:orrrrrr you could just be an adult and stop using it? why is that such a horrific outcome? If you mean I could stop using "oval office", there's no reason for me to, any more than any other curse word.
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Jun 11, 2020 16:56
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One more thing that just occurred to me - Shitbags like the people that ruined this flexible and insulting word use it as a manner of signaling and dog-whistling. I'd even give up the "gently caress" word if it meant starving these piles of stale semen of online oxygen. Also, I know that incels are only known to the seriously internetted up, but if you think that doesn't apply to something awful slash dot com "holy poo poo there's a front page" then I have some unfortunate news for you.
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Jun 11, 2020 17:14
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I can't claim to know much about these extremely online people, but it seems like changing your speech because of a word they co-opted is actually empowering them. Also while I knew this website was originated by an American, I always thought of the forums as extremely diverse and global. But then, I've seen that AI in particular has an issue with posters who don't agree with the group opinion.
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Jun 11, 2020 17:56
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Calling people cunts is seen as bad as calling POC a bunch of of names I dont believe I need to say here InitialDave posted:It isn't, though. It really, really isn't, and if anyone genuinely believes that, then this is a very good opportunity to correct that misunderstanding. fridge corn posted:This is insanely not true. Like lol even in America I dont think this is true. I don't disagree with angryrobots' point (about not changing use because it empowers), but I see this as entirely separate, because this word has always been offensive here. That word is one of two words I'm aware of in American English that will almost absolutely result in a fight. You can call someone a retard* and they might get mad. You can even call someone a wetback* or a zipperhead* and they'll probably get mad. If you say "bitch" in front of your parents, you might get warned not to. If you call a woman a [c-word], you absolutely will get punched. If you call a black person a [n-word]**, you absolutely will get punched. Rightfully so. *: Please don't, it's offensive and dickish. And you still stand a decent chance of getting punched. **: Unless you're in the South, but that's a whole separate issue. The c-word might actually be worse, there. (Not that it's actually worse, just people in the South will react to it more than they would the n-word) e: added a "not" and an "almost". Krakkles fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 11, 2020 |
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Jun 11, 2020 18:21
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fridge corn posted:See this is the issue right here. This isnt America, this is the internet. I'm not in America so why should I have to conform to their social norms while I'm sitting in my living room? The world doesn't revolve around America. Try coming over here and tell us to stop saying oval office, you'll get laughed out of town Presumably, you would want to avoid being super lovely to Americans, particularly American women. If you had a word that was super insulting to you, but normal to me, I would try not to say it around you! Or in my living room, if it was said in a way where you might come across it, like if I said it on the internet. It doesn't matter how you meant it. It matters how people will react to it, and if they will be hurt or put off by it. Assuming you're trying to build an inclusive community, which I'm not convinced you're on board with. That's why I started my previous post with a question.
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Jun 11, 2020 18:48
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Krakkles posted:**: Unless you're in the South, but that's a whole separate issue. The c-word might actually be worse, there. (Not that it's actually worse, just people in the South will react to it more than they would the n-word) You reference the John Mulaney maxim yourself - the worse word is the one you don't even say. Though even that I've always seen as a little silly when it's extended to applying in the context of having what is effectively an academic discussion of the word, rather than "using" it. Raluek posted:Presumably, you would want to avoid being super lovely to Americans, particularly American women. If you had a word that was super insulting to you, but normal to me, I would try not to say it around you! Or in my living room, if it was said in a way where you might come across it, like if I said it on the internet.
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Jun 11, 2020 19:15
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fridge corn posted:Incels are only known to insanely online people This was true right up until the point where they started doing literal terrorism
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Jun 11, 2020 19:22
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InitialDave posted:That seems more a "racist shitheads" problem than one of "oval office" being worse than racist epiphets. InitialDave posted:You reference the John Mulaney maxim yourself - the worse word is the one you don't even say. Though even that I've always seen as a little silly when it's extended to applying in the context of having what is effectively an academic discussion of the word, rather than "using" it. The point I think you may have missed (or I misunderstood) is that the c-word the only other word that I’m aware of that is also referenced this way. Literally the only American people I’ve ever met who will say the word (instead of “the c-word”) are insufferable assholes. I get that it’s different for you guys, and that’s fine, but it’s A Really Bad Word here, CI wasn’t exaggerating, and all the points about inclusion are exactly right. There is a substantial part of the world where use of that word will strongly discourage men AND women from wanting to post here. I get that being told what to do sucks, but this is a weird hill to die on. I know you WANT to say it. When I first learned that it wasn’t cool to refer to things as “gay”, I bristled too. That’s not how I use it. I’ve since dropped it from my vocab and my life has not revolved around that once since.
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Jun 11, 2020 19:37
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Krakkles posted:I get that being told what to do sucks, but this is a weird hill to die on.
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Jun 11, 2020 19:44
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There are some people whose whole identities revolve around being obstinately lovely. They're the people who lined up to climb Uluru the day it was banned, and they're the people yelling about "heritage not hate" in the US. They can gently caress right off as far as I'm concerned.
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Jun 11, 2020 19:59
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Safety Dance posted:There are some people whose whole identities revolve around being obstinately lovely. They're the people who lined up to climb Uluru the day it was banned, and they're the people yelling about "heritage not hate" in the US. They can gently caress right off as far as I'm concerned.
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Jun 11, 2020 20:09
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InitialDave posted:I'm not dying on it. It is, however, my hill, and if you'll let the Aussies stay on theirs, you sure as poo poo can let everyone else do the same. Which, at this point, I'd vote for. fridge corn is pretty much the king of bad takes (see above comments about incels) and that other guy isn't exactly selling his case arguing for his already secured ability to use a slur for women by pointedly using an Australian word that's apparently a slur for Americans. If you want to argue for UK goons in UK specific threads to be able to use it, I doubt anyone would fight you, but that's not the impression you've given me. Safety Dance posted:There are some people whose whole identities revolve around being obstinately lovely. They're the people who lined up to climb Uluru the day it was banned, and they're the people yelling about "heritage not hate" in the US. They can gently caress right off as far as I'm concerned. there, I said it
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Jun 11, 2020 20:09
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Krakkles posted:
I would argue for not calling other posters cunts, while accepting that it gets used as a curse world in other contexts, is reasonable. I would turn the debate to "twat", but then I'd have to deal with Americans pronouncing it.
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Jun 11, 2020 20:19
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InitialDave posted:Tbh I'm letting myself get excessively irritated about it due to work bullshit etc today, but fundamentally - if the word is so bad that absolutely no-one should use it, that position does not allow for the Aussies using it because of the different context, and having established that such an allowance can exist, said different context applies universally. Personally, I'd fall on the other side of that (I.e., don't use it at all, because of Elmnt's point about "would you know [poster] is australian without prior knowledge"), but would accept that as a reasonable compromise. "Tw-AH-t"? "Tw@"? Wait, I know you guys drop the "t" sound entirely ... "wah"? I'm not a huge fan of that word, but I don't think it has the same offensiveness, at least in the US. It's not a good word, for sure, but it's more vulgar than insulting.
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Jun 11, 2020 20:25
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Krakkles posted:"Tw-AH-t"? Not "twot".
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Jun 11, 2020 20:27
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fridge corn posted:This is insanely not true. Like lol even in America I dont think this is true Hoe the gently caress are you so unread that you think the facts I laid out wasnt true? Theres some loving bad arguments being made here all because some people cant build a bridge and get over it. gently caress it Elmnt80 Im fine with outright banning oval office anywhere. Im not going to be used by bad faith posters for their disingenuous arguments. I tried to point out that the Aussies didnt kick up a pathetic stink and get butthurt because this site doesnt like a word but some people are taking this too far. This is NOT a hill to die on for me
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Jun 11, 2020 20:38
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Krakkles posted:If you call a woman a [c-word], you absolutely will get punched. I don't think I've ever had the urge to call a woman a oval office. Men are much more likely to be cunts in my experience E: lol which one of you did this fridge corn fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 11, 2020 |
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Jun 11, 2020 20:55
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Ffs what is it that makes some people so whiney about being asked to maybe change their behavior a little to make others feel more welcome? Discussions on every news story about NASCAR today is full of the same attitudes.
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Jun 11, 2020 21:27
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Im not going to be used by bad faith posters for their disingenuous arguments. I tried to point out that the Aussies didnt kick up a pathetic stink and get butthurt because this site doesnt like a word but some people are taking this too far. This is NOT a hill to die on for me I genuinely do not feel the word is bad enough to need an outright ban, or that it is inherently misogynistic, and the only reason I single out Aussies as representative of the use of it "acceptably" is because Elmnt80 did so when he wrote this stuff up. I will accept it if it's what ends up happening, but I'm still going to argue back against it first, because I dont agree with it. That doesn't mean I'm misogynistic or uncaring for the sensibilities of others, and I am perfectly capable of moderating my language use if I need to. HenryJLittlefinger posted:Ffs what is it that makes some people so whiney about being asked to maybe change their behavior a little to make others feel more welcome? Discussions on every news story about NASCAR today is full of the same attitudes.
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Jun 11, 2020 21:31
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InitialDave posted:I am definitely not arguing in bad faith, and I don't regard anyone who has an opposing viewpoint to mine to be doing so either. I'm more referring to Fridge Corn who frankly isnt worth replying to anymore
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Jun 11, 2020 22:09
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InitialDave posted:The difference is the "it doesn't mean that here" argument is bollocks for the Confederate flag. CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:I'm more referring to Fridge Corn who frankly isnt worth replying to
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Jun 11, 2020 22:14
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Fridge corn is an rear end in a top hat with a sense of humor who likes pushing buttons. Even if I disagree with him he's a hell of a lot more interesting than half the white noise and  in here.Like this: HenryJLittlefinger posted:Ffs what is it that makes some people so whiney about being asked to maybe change their behavior a little to make others feel more welcome? Discussions on every news story about NASCAR today is full of the same attitudes. I'm sure that any of the posters here arguing against (or about) the AI rule change are all for the NASCAR rule. That's a completely separate thing that you're stretching just to try and zing someone who is actually participating in this discussion.
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Jun 11, 2020 22:39
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Krakkles posted:Two different things can be offensive in two different ways which are both problematic, though. The difference I see is that the Confederate flag is, well, literally flying the flag for everything the Confederates stood for, warts and all, that meaning is inherent to it and cannot be divorced from it, plus also that entire situation is Americans making decisions regarding their own, internal, home-grown culture, and it's very much their prerogative to do so. You could probably have the Confederate flag put up here (and occasionally you do see it) without people losing their poo poo, but an American seeing it would be perfectly within their rights to have an "excuse me, what the gently caress?" Moment about it. I actually have the opposite problem here,in that the genuine, ok to use English flag, St George's Cross, is somewhat associated with thick racist fuckwits, and I really wish it weren't, but luckily the Union Flag is still untainted enough for us other, non-lovely people. Also people co-opting the pride flag for the NHS, which currently pisses me off quite a lot but that's a whole other derail.
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Jun 11, 2020 22:40
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angryrobots posted:Fridge corn is an rear end in a top hat with a sense of humor who likes pushing buttons. Even if I disagree with him he's a hell of a lot more interesting than half the white noise and angryrobots posted:I'm sure that any of the posters here arguing against (or about) the AI rule change are all for the NASCAR rule. That's a completely separate thing that you're stretching just to try and zing someone who is actually participating in this discussion.
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Jun 11, 2020 23:18
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angryrobots posted:
Uh no, chief. I made no statement that people who want a pass to say the c-word are the same as people who are confederate flag enthusiasts. The response is the same in that there is a certain tone of whining that pops up when people are asked to make a pretty minor change to behavior in order to be a little more welcoming. You can compare two different things that are both unpleasant on different scales and to different people without saying they’re literally the same.
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Jun 11, 2020 23:28
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