I desire beings smarter than me to run my society. A Culture thread

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Sci-Fi Wi-Fi > I desire beings smarter than me to run my society. A Culture thread

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sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Yeah that's absolutely the text of the series. Is you are well meaning and essentially infinitely powerful, what should you do?

# ? Sep 26, 2020 02:28

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# ? May 8, 2024 22:27

RoboChrist 9000: Dec 14, 2006; Mater Dolorosa

Communism and Capitalism are both economic systems. Economics is about scarcity. To put it another way, communism and capitalism are both answers to the question of how society should allocate limited resources.

The Culture is explicitly post-scarcity. There are no limited resources save time. I think he means them to be communist, but what does communism mean when resources and labor no longer mean anything?

# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:13

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

It comes off as a backhanded unintentional critique of communism, since he needs to posit ultimately powerful and infinitely benevolent god machines for it to work

# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:18

mind the walrus: Sep 22, 2006

sebmojo posted:

It comes off as a backhanded unintentional critique of communism, since he needs to posit ultimately powerful and infinitely benevolent god machines for it to work

I'm left as gently caress, but yeah it's this.

# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:21

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

mind the walrus posted:

I'm left as gently caress, but yeah it's this.

I think it's more cynicism about human nature than an explicit commentary on communism. The Culture isn't really Communist as we think about it anyway.

# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:50

MRC48B: Apr 2, 2012

IIRC said god-machines then have to rebuild human languages, written and spoken, from the ground up, and do a bit of genetic engineering as well?

# ? Sep 26, 2020 22:52

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

Not just, ultimately powerful and infinitely benevolent god machines, but also explicitly a an AI slave-class designed to just below the level of intelligence that the Culture deems to be worthy of rights (set accurately by the aforementioned ultimately powerful and infinitely benevolent god machines).

If everyone had to do a job and the job was assigned by the god-machines then the Culture would be a horrifying dystopia.

# ? Sep 27, 2020 10:05

Red Crown: Oct 20, 2008; Pretend my finger's a knife.

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

I think it's more cynicism about human nature than an explicit commentary on communism. The Culture isn't really Communist as we think about it anyway.

Can't have a Worker's Paradise if there's no work to be done :v:

I think you're right, I felt like Banks wasn't angling to directly comment on communism vs. capitalism. I never felt like the series had a statement it wanted to make, it was a thought experiment told through stories.

# ? Sep 27, 2020 20:51

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Red Crown posted:

Can't have a Worker's Paradise if there's no work to be done

I think you're right, I felt like Banks wasn't angling to directly comment on communism vs. capitalism. I never felt like the series had a statement it wanted to make, it was a thought experiment told through stories.

It's pretty obvious Banks was not a fan of capitalism.

The State Of The Art posted:

On Earth one of the things that a large proportion of the locals is most proud of is this wonderful economic system which, with a sureness and certainty so comprehensive one could almost imagine the process bears some relation to their limited and limiting notions of either thermodynamics or God, all food, comfort, energy, shelter, space, fuel and sustenance gravitates naturally and easily away from those who need it most and towards those who need it least. Indeed, those on the receiving end of such largesse are often harmed unto death by its arrival, though the effects may take years and generations to manifest themselves.�

The State Of The Art posted:

Money is a sign of poverty. This is an old Culture saying I remember every now and again, especially when I�m being tempted to do something I know I shouldn�t, and there�s money involved (when is there not?).

The State Of The Art posted:

Now, quite apart from the fact that, from the point of view of the Earther, socialism suffers the devastating liability of only exhibiting internal contradictions when you are trying to use it as an adjunct to your own stupidity (unlike capitalism, which again, from the point of view of the Earther, happily has them built in from the start), it is the case that because Free Enterprise got there first and set up the house rules, it will always stay at least one kick ahead of its rivals.

Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 10:29 on Sep 28, 2020

# ? Sep 28, 2020 10:27

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

It's pretty obvious Banks was not a fan of capitalism.

He was a Marxist iirc

# ? Sep 28, 2020 10:37

MrL_JaKiri: Sep 23, 2003; A bracing glass of carrot juice!

Generic leftist

# ? Sep 28, 2020 11:18

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

My take on the message that Banks is trying to convey in the books (and I also think it changes subtly over the course of the series) is that it's a mistake to get too wrapped up in trying to argue Capitalism vs Communism if that blinds you to the end point being a utopia where there's no requirement for anyone to interact with the economy and everyone gets to spend all their time pursuing happiness. Maybe Communism is the next step on the path for humanity, maybe not, but neither of those systems represent the end of history. The only labour relations in The Culture are between the machines that can do everything perfectly, and the people they indulge in pretending to be able to add value.

I say the message changes because I don't think it's an accident that Banks makes a point in the Hydrogen Sonata of inventing the Gzilt as a species that are literally at the end of history and they're a post scarcity society that does still have money and has retained a form of vestigial economic relations between individuals, and the implicit commentary there is 'eh, that's fine'.

e: he obviously thinks Capitalism is worse, but the Culture is not 'this is my take on Socialism'.

Alchenar fucked around with this message at 12:40 on Sep 28, 2020

# ? Sep 28, 2020 12:28

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

Alchenar posted:

e: he obviously thinks Capitalism is worse, but the Culture is not 'this is my take on Socialism'.

I was just reading this interview this morning, after the topic came up in the thread (bolded emphasis mine);

A FEW QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CULTURE: AN INTERVIEW WITH IAIN BANKS posted:

JR: To what extent do you think your political perspectives and attitudes inform your writing about the Culture?

IB: A lot. The Culture stories are me at my most didactic, though it's largely hidden under all the funny names, action, and general bluster. The Culture represents the place we might hope to get to after we've dealt with all our stupidities. Maybe. I have said before, and will doubtless say again, that maybe we�that is, homo sapiens�are just too determinedly stupid and aggressive to have any hope of becoming like the Culture, unless we somehow find and isolate/destroy the genes that code for xenophobia, should they exist. Plus we'd have to develop AIs and let them be themselves; another big ask.

JR: While you have often been resistant to attempts to characterise your writing as distinctively or definitely Scottish, would you be prepared to acknowledge the politics of your Culture novels as Scottish�as opposed to English or American?

IB: A bit of all the above. I am conscious of being Scottish, British, European, English-speaking Anglo-Saxon-Celt, and what you might call Western. Also a citizen of the world, and all that. A humanist. I would like to think that the politics of the Culture novels is more kind of generally socialist or communitarian, rather than specifically Scottish.

JR: Could you elaborate on what "humanist" means to you?

IB: I think I fit the dictionary definition of a Humanist pretty well: non-religious, non-superstitious, basing morality on shared human values of decency, tolerance, reason, justice, the search for truth, and so on. My personal take on this goes a little further�as any serious SF writer's would kind of have to unless they reject the very idea of both AI and aliens�to encompass the rights both of these (as it were, still potential) categories, but other than that I'm probably fairly typical.

JR: To what extent does your writing about the Culture endorse the Culture's point of view?

IB: Probably too much. I started out bending over backwards to present the opposite point of view in Consider Phlebas, making it look like the Culture represented the bad guys, at the start, at least, but, let's face it; La Culture: c'est moi.

JR: Many critics and reviewers have claimed that the Culture represents the American Libertarian ideal. Given that this is clearly not the case, how do you characterise the politics of the Culture?

IB: Really? I had no idea. Obviously I haven't read the output of the relevant critics and reviewers. Let's be clear: unless I have profoundly misunderstood its position, I pretty much despise American Libertarianism. Have these people seriously looked at the problems of the world and thought, 'Hmm, what we need here is a bit more selfishness'? . . . I beg to differ. This is not say that Libertarianism can't represent a progressive force, in the right circumstances, and I don't doubt there will be significant areas where I would agree with Libertarianism. But, really; which bit of not having private property, and the absence of money in the Culture novels, have these people missed? The Culture is hippy commies with hyper-weapons and a deep distrust of both Marketolatry and Greedism. One rests one's case.

From here: http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/articles/a-few-questions-about-the-culture-an-interview-with-iain-banks/

Edit: I guess you could argue that his stance changed over the course of the books, but I'm not really sure it did.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 13:30

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Okay putting all that aside, my god what idiots think the culture represents a libertarian ideal? It's a civilization where you expressly surrender the care of your rights to a wiser and more powerful all-judging being!

# ? Sep 28, 2020 13:44

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

Oh the Culture is absolutely a libertarian ideal. It's a society where nobody has any obligation to anyone else beyond the harm principle. Banks cheats a fair bit. 'Greed' doesn't exist as a vice in The Culture because anyone can instantly satisfy any material desire they have. I think if you asked any libertarian what their ideal society would look like if it had reached a point where people had been divorced from the economic machinery entirely and contracts and money didn't exist then they'd point to the Culture and say 'a lot like that'. A libertarian would agree that Freedom of Contract collapses as a concept when there is an open offer to everyone for anything they want for free from God. The only reason you would ever form binding agreements with other people would be as an esoteric hobby of the kind that people in the Culture get up to.

Banks is also weakest when he's trying to explain why the Culture isn't a libertarian ideal;
"So anyone can have a house like this?"
"Sure"
"...and what if someone decided they wanted this particular house?"
"They uh... they wouldn't?"

The Culture relies on a layers of heavy cultural expectation of appropriate behaviour and a generous interpretation of the harm principle in order to maintain something that looks an awful lot like personal property rights in practice.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 14:09

Gravitas Shortfall: Jul 17, 2007; Utility is seven-eighths Proximity.

A peaceful post-scarcity society is a utopia for a lot of political ideals. I know there's a Banks quote somewhere about how capitalism could become The Culture but from the other side - essentially by killing off everyone but the 1%

# ? Sep 28, 2020 14:25

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

I always read the Culture as the result of "OK OK, so you've got your communist ideal - how do you deal with x?" It's a fairly common game in lefty circles - we know why most communes do what they do, which is mostly propagandizing and mutual aid stuff, because they don't have a lot of power to expand beyond, y'know, a house. But let's say you fix that, and you're no longer just a house with good rules and a library, you're huge and powerful and you're not scared of the police busting down the door for giving a homeless person socks. What now?

Nobody on the left really disagrees about poverty or healthcare or gender identity or internal borders, but foreign relations has always been a spot of notorious discontent, what with it being the cause of the Stalin/Trotsky split and so on. If you've made utopia, are you responsible for spreading it? And how do you do so?

(the LANCER RPG is also about this and it's pretty good imho).

# ? Sep 28, 2020 14:38

mind the walrus: Sep 22, 2006

A lot of the Culture is also "What if Star Trek was really unchained?" which is itself another lefty thought exercise on "If people don't have to worry about working for a living, what would they want to do and how would they go about it?" The implications of the macro-scaffolding to allow it are definitely viable points of discussion, but also a little beside the core point.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 15:02

Notahippie: Feb 4, 2003; Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth

Tulip posted:

I always read the Culture as the result of "OK OK, so you've got your communist ideal - how do you deal with x?" It's a fairly common game in lefty circles - we know why most communes do what they do, which is mostly propagandizing and mutual aid stuff, because they don't have a lot of power to expand beyond, y'know, a house. But let's say you fix that, and you're no longer just a house with good rules and a library, you're huge and powerful and you're not scared of the police busting down the door for giving a homeless person socks. What now?

Nobody on the left really disagrees about poverty or healthcare or gender identity or internal borders, but foreign relations has always been a spot of notorious discontent, what with it being the cause of the Stalin/Trotsky split and so on. If you've made utopia, are you responsible for spreading it? And how do you do so?

(the LANCER RPG is also about this and it's pretty good imho).

I agree with this take, and think it's notable that there are very few plots if any that deal with issues completely internal to the Culture - Excession is probably closest, and even then it's in the context of the Outside Context Problem and relationships with other spacefaring species.

There's plenty of critique of the Culture, but it's all in the questions of what their responsibility and effectiveness is when dealing with external actors.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 19:16

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Tulip posted:

But let's say you fix that, and you're no longer just a house with good rules and a library, you're huge and powerful and you're not scared of the police busting down the door for giving a homeless person socks. What now?

they are kind of scared of this, though. the whole technological level system of the galaxy is explicitly against giving certain civilizations too much tech too quickly, and they (at least in the books appear to) abide by that understanding. it's why they resort to SC and generally shady poo poo instead of just doing Cultural cultural imperialism

# ? Sep 28, 2020 21:06

pygmy tyrant: Nov 25, 2005; *not a small business owner

I thought that strain of political critique was that the Culture comes off as a 90's infinite optimism end-of-history liberal utopia, not libertarian. Mostly because the series is all about humanitarian interventions with their genocidal facets handwaved away by perfect moral calculus, but also in the presentation of poverty as a problem solved by having an economy so big and great that there's effectively infinite stuff. Not my takeaways, but there is some valid criticism wrapped up in all that.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that interviewer just mixed up liberal and libertarian.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 21:19

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

nah a lot of dipshits think The Culture is the Libertarian ideal, like Elon Musk for example

# ? Sep 28, 2020 21:27

mind the walrus: Sep 22, 2006

indigi posted:

nah a lot of dipshits think The Culture is the Libertarian ideal, like Elon Musk for example

I honestly would be shocked if he ever actually read a Culture book or if he did, that he remembers much. I'd be comfortable betting a modest amount of money that he got one of his many, many PR employees to do that legwork for him.

# ? Sep 28, 2020 21:32

Notahippie: Feb 4, 2003; Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth

mind the walrus posted:

I honestly would be shocked if he ever actually read a Culture book or if he did, that he remembers much. I'd be comfortable betting a modest amount of money that he got one of his many, many PR employees to do that legwork for him.

Elon strikes me as the kind of nerd whose thought process goes "I like X, therefore X must agree with my existing thinking in all aspects. Let me explain it to you in detail"

# ? Sep 28, 2020 23:12

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

mind the walrus posted:

I honestly would be shocked if he ever actually read a Culture book or if he did, that he remembers much. I'd be comfortable betting a modest amount of money that he got one of his many, many PR employees to do that legwork for him.

why? they're not finnegans wake lol

# ? Sep 28, 2020 23:31

mind the walrus: Sep 22, 2006

sebmojo posted:

why? they're not finnegans wake lol

Being a billionaire who runs a lot of poo poo means he probably read it as a kid and doesn't remember half of it. I read a lot of books between age 10-25 and while I remember some details I definitely couldn't write a treatise on half of them, and I haven't been nearly as stimulated and busy at that dude.

Notahippie posted:

Elon strikes me as the kind of nerd whose thought process goes "I like X, therefore X must agree with my existing thinking in all aspects. Let me explain it to you in detail"

Also true. Being rich as gently caress means being disproportionately surrounded by people who won't tell you "no."

# ? Sep 29, 2020 00:08

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

Elon is also exactly the kind of dumbass who looks at the Culture and thinks "the reason we can't have stuff like this is that I'm too restrained" when the reason we don't get stuff like that is because of Elon Musk.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 01:41

RoboChrist 9000: Dec 14, 2006; Mater Dolorosa

Musk is basically Veppers. Thiel is the villain of some unwritten Culture story.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 01:48

frogge: Apr 7, 2006

Bezos is into the culture too. Can't decide if he or Musk are Veppers.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 01:51

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

Look, Bezos is veppers and musk is the GFCF, envying the culture without actually getting it.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 01:54

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Bezos is without a doubt Veppers

# ? Sep 29, 2020 02:02

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

mind the walrus posted:

A lot of the Culture is also "What if Star Trek was really unchained?"

Well, more specifically "What if Star Trek The Next Generation was unchained", it actually surprised me that the Culture predates TNG. I wonder if Rod read the early books when TNG was in development.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 02:30

mind the walrus: Sep 22, 2006

There's no way that the people "under" Roddenberry developing TNG were unaware of The Culture. No way.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 04:41

Issaries: Sep 15, 2008; "Negotiations were going well. They were very impressed by my hat." -Issaries the Concilliator"

sebmojo posted:

why? they're not finnegans wake lol

Some people have problem accepting that person they hate did something good, enjoys the same entertainment or agrees with them about something.

Guy like Elon Musk would thrive in culture society doing some ambitious projects.
They wouldn't be as significant as Tesla or SpaceX, but he wouldn't have any budgetary constraints either.

Post scarcity world would be an upgrade even for billionaires.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 12:16

MikeJF: Dec 20, 2003

mind the walrus posted:

There's no way that the people "under" Roddenberry developing TNG were unaware of The Culture. No way.

Eh, maybe. Phlebas came out early 87, TNG launched late 87. And Phlebas wasn't the greatest demonstration of The Culture itself.

I'm sure the writers would've been aware during the run of the show, though; you had Player of Games, State of the Art and Use of Weapons all out by 1990. Hell, it's possible they counter-influenced each other, TNG might've influenced Banks in ways too, if only in wanting to do certain things less shallowly than the show did.

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:11 on Sep 29, 2020

# ? Sep 29, 2020 13:00

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

adhuin posted:

significant as Tesla or SpaceX,

# ? Sep 29, 2020 15:34

Tulip: Jun 3, 2008; yeah thats pretty good

indigi posted:

Remember when a secondary character in Player of Games got into moving mountains just because she thought it looked cool?

That said, Musk doesn't want to accomplish specific engineering, artistic, or scientific goals, he wants to order people around. If he wanted to do those things he'd not run his companies like a vindictive tyrant. The Culture, like all communist idylls, would be liberating to even the bosses, but they'd have to really, truly stop being bosses.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 16:01

Notahippie: Feb 4, 2003; Kids, it's not cool to have Shane MacGowan teeth

MikeJF posted:

Well, more specifically "What if Star Trek The Next Generation was unchained", it actually surprised me that the Culture predates TNG. I wonder if Rod read the early books when TNG was in development.

Banks is pretty prescient - there's one of his "non M" books, I forget which one, where the main character obsessively plays a videogame that is basically Civilization. I thought it was weird until I realized that it came out before Civ did.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 17:30

Alchenar: Apr 9, 2008

I don't think it's inconsistent to say that Bezos is making fortunes off the back of slavery, and that what Amazon is trying to build is a system where a human pushes a button and a few hours later a drone appears on their doorstep with a thing they want, which looks a lot like the tail end of the Culture's economy works.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 18:48

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# ? May 8, 2024 22:27

sebmojo: Oct 23, 2010; Legit Cyberpunk

Notahippie posted:

Banks is pretty prescient - there's one of his "non M" books, I forget which one, where the main character obsessively plays a videogame that is basically Civilization. I thought it was weird until I realized that it came out before Civ did.

Complicity. Civ 1 came out two years before.

# ? Sep 29, 2020 19:07

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Sci-Fi Wi-Fi > I desire beings smarter than me to run my society. A Culture thread

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