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xgalaxy posted:Well for awhile Rosetta 2 will supposedly seamlessly kick in and run those homebrew applications for you. As an embedded Linux engineer who works on the Yocto and Buildroot projects: lmao. Most developers don’t give two shits about cross compiling compatibility. I have submitted hundreds of patches to various projects to fix cross compiling issues. Including some high profile ones like systemd, glib, and meson.
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Jun 22, 2020 22:48
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Did they’d at anything about emulating say, x86 Linux on OS 11 running on ARM?
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Jun 22, 2020 23:04
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poty posted:Agree, interesting times ahead. Can't wait to get an usb 4, pci express 4 mac with a 5nm chip early next year I'm not sure TSMC will have the spare capacity for significant 5 nm ARM-based Macs until sometime into later 2021/2022 at the earliest. Apple already obtained the capacity that was supposed to be for Huawei, and that wasn't even that much honestly, and likely for the iPhone 12. TSMC will be ramping up capacity of 5nm wafers in 2021 but a lot of that capacity was already reserved by Apple themselves for the iPhone and iPad, and the likes of nVidia, AMD, and even Intel. So Apple may have to revise some of their orders away from the iPad and iPhone and over to Macs instead. It'll be definitely exciting to watch. I have no doubt they'll do it, just not sure how many systems will be available at first.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:05
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Bob Morales posted:Did they’d at anything about emulating say, x86 Linux on OS 11 running on ARM? Why not just use a native arm Linux like Fedora Arm?
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Jun 22, 2020 23:06
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Bob Morales posted:Did they’d at anything about emulating say, x86 Linux on OS 11 running on ARM? Just a screenshot of GNU Debian 9 Linux running in a Parallels window (impressive if Parallels already has their Intel to ARM parser running) 
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Jun 22, 2020 23:11
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qemu will probably be able to do x86-64 emu on day one, for all the Windows and x86 specific OS that people may have edge cases to run on their Mac these days, such as myself. The question is whether it’ll be worth the time given the fact that it won’t be virtualized but rather emulated so you’ll be taking a dip in performance. I’m not sure anyone can really answer how much of a dip we’d be looking at.
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Jun 22, 2020 23:12
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I think the x86 emulator for Windows 10 that Microsoft had created for the Surface Pro X ended up seeing a pretty big performance drop for non-Microsoft applications?
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Jun 22, 2020 23:21
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SourKraut posted:I think the x86 emulator for Windows 10 that Microsoft had created for the Surface Pro X ended up seeing a pretty big performance drop for non-Microsoft applications? it can't even run x64 apps. So all office apps (excel, excels ram hungry brother TEAMS) are stuck in 32bit land for a long time. And, they're relying on Qualcomm to build most of the Windows On Arm hardware and seeing the lay of the land for android its going as about as well as a niche product from Qualcomm would pan out. incoherent fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Jun 22, 2020 |
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Jun 22, 2020 23:32
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I guess the Microsoft Lumia is far enough down the memory hole for Apple to crib the grid UI and act like it's their idea.
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Jun 23, 2020 00:04
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Binary Badger posted:How can you call it an Apple original if someone else wrote it? Doesn't stop Netflix and Amazon. incoherent posted:lmao translucent menus. what the gently caress. 10.5.0 all over again Happy Noodle Boy posted:time to load up fortnite and crush mobile players with mkb Fortnite has been on Mac OS X for years!
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Jun 23, 2020 00:45
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I quite enjoyed that format for WWDC. Had some goofy moments but wasn't cringeworthy or anything. It helps that Apple have such an amazing building to shoot it in. I'm curious to see how well the switch from Intel goes.
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Jun 23, 2020 02:59
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Fanatic posted:I'm curious to see how well the switch from Intel goes. There's going to be a ton of people posting well documented posts about serious problems and deficiencies with the transition to ARM and Big Sur and an equal amount of people posting that their concerns are not valid and that Apple can do no wrong.
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Jun 23, 2020 03:07
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Brain Issues posted:There's going to be a ton of people posting well documented posts about serious problems and deficiencies with the transition to ARM and Big Sur and an equal amount of people posting that their concerns are not valid and that Apple can do no wrong. Sounds about right. 
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Jun 23, 2020 04:14
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So in the Mac part they mentioned/showed a new virtualization icon. I thought this meant that Apple was releasing a first party version of eg Parallels. But the next scene Apple shows Linux running in Parallels instead of a native NotParallels.app app. Am I missing something here? And I can’t understand the point of app clips. Why would I want an app clip if I already had an app? Is it just a way to take over native websites or something?
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Jun 23, 2020 06:56
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Boris Galerkin posted:So in the Mac part they mentioned/showed a new virtualization icon. I thought this meant that Apple was releasing a first party version of eg Parallels. But the next scene Apple shows Linux running in Parallels instead of a native NotParallels.app app. Am I missing something here? As for app clips, the main use I see is for immediate use/service stuff if you don't have the app. Like the rental scooter example was good, cause otherwise you'd have to download whatever specific app (which could be pretty bloated), register for the service, then go through whatever payment. Or stuff like store/restaurant reward app type of things. It's really annoying when you just need to use the thing now and don't have the app. With the app clip, the download is under 10MB from what I've read so it's a relatively quick download, and Apple ID/Pay or whatever takes care of the transaction right after that loads. And in many cases I don't even want to bother with the app if it's something I won't need again or use sparingly, so instead I can just use the clip.
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Jun 23, 2020 07:11
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Boris Galerkin posted:So in the Mac part they mentioned/showed a new virtualization icon. I thought this meant that Apple was releasing a first party version of eg Parallels. But the next scene Apple shows Linux running in Parallels instead of a native NotParallels.app app. Am I missing something here? 1. There is a virtualization "engine" (a hypervisor) provided by macos 11 and parallels is acting as a front end. It works pretty much like modern windows 10 builds and VMware workstation where the bulk of the virtualization engine is provided by microsoft and not vmware. 2. App clip is for apps you DON'T have, say you go on a trip with an electric car and your usual provider charge point is broken. You are running low on charge so you need to find one before you run out. There is a different brand nearby and you don't have the app on you. You tap the app clip nfc tag and you get a tiny version of the charge provider app so when you are done you can forget about it.
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Jun 23, 2020 07:16
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App Clips may make a lot of sense but companies are stupid and would rather lock fewer people into their ecosystem than make it easier to give them money and so get more people total.
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Jun 23, 2020 07:31
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japtor posted:Virtualization is a system level support thing that apps can use, so basically just saying it's sticking around (which was a question mark going into this), but for ARM VMs. I knew people were worried about x86-64 emulation, but I don't think anyone was worried that virtualization was going away period. IIRC Apple showed native x86-64 software running via Rosetta Stone, and they showed ARM Linux running in Parallels. But have they shown that Rosetta Stone can run an entire x86-64 OS like Windows or the linux variants that people actually use? I think that's key because there are non-Mac software that people need to use on their Macs. SlowBloke posted:1. There is a virtualization "engine" (a hypervisor) provided by macos 11 and parallels is acting as a front end. It works pretty much like modern windows 10 builds and VMware workstation where the bulk of the virtualization engine is provided by microsoft and not vmware. I guess I'm confused because macOS 10 (whoa, I missed the part about Big Sur being macOS 11) also has a native hypervisor and the video made it sound like this was a new thing being added. I thought it would be a first party copy of like Parallels or VMWare. japtor posted:As for app clips, the main use I see is for immediate use/service stuff if you don't have the app. Like the rental scooter example was good, cause otherwise you'd have to download whatever specific app (which could be pretty bloated), register for the service, then go through whatever payment. Or stuff like store/restaurant reward app type of things. It's really annoying when you just need to use the thing now and don't have the app. If downloading an App Clip can let you use the services of that app without needing to create an account then so can the actual app itself. Do people seriously worry about 10+ MB downloads? E: In the video it says you find these App Clips in the wild by scanning a (of course it is) proprietary Apple QR-like code. Why not just have that launch the widget to download the app from the App Store instead. SlowBloke posted:2. App clip is for apps you DON'T have, say you go on a trip with an electric car and your usual provider charge point is broken. You are running low on charge so you need to find one before you run out. There is a different brand nearby and you don't have the app on you. You tap the app clip nfc tag and you get a tiny version of the charge provider app so when you are done you can forget about it. I mean, if I go to any store today there is a NFC reader at the cashier that lets me tap my phone and tada I can pay via Apple Pay without having to download 10 MB of assets. ~Coxy posted:App Clips may make a lot of sense but companies are stupid and would rather lock fewer people into their ecosystem than make it easier to give them money and so get more people total. There are so many websites that give you a gigantic banner at the top of the page: "our content is optimized for our app! download now." I really don't see how App Clips are going to be anything other than a 10 MB "app" that tells you to download their real app. I'm really trying not to be dense here but I seriously do not see any use case for App Clips that currently can't be done. I'm obviously missing something and the examples so far aren't working for me. Boris Galerkin fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 09:18
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Boris Galerkin posted:I mean, if I go to any store today there is a NFC reader at the cashier that lets me tap my phone and tada I can pay via Apple Pay without having to download 10 MB of assets. There are a lot of services that require an app AND apple pay. App clips are for those scenarios. Also app clips let the service use a NFC TAG (instead of a NFC POS) which are immensely cheaper. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 09:24
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So macs are going back to the Day's of PowerPC and not having any kind of compatibility in software and function with regular PC's lol... Like, why even buy a new Imac if the software companies are gonna have to re-build everything from scratch to fit the new AMD architecture, I dont understand why they'd want to go back into being even more niche than they are currently. Do people really want a giant Ipad desktop computer?
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Jun 23, 2020 10:25
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Al-Saqr posted:So macs are going back to the Day's of PowerPC and not having any kind of compatibility in software and function with regular PC's lol... They only transitioned to PowerPC when the performance curve suited them, not because they were seeking compatibility. Their bet is that their architecture is now sufficiently mature enough to make macs substantially more powerful than intel/x86 chips, and they are probably right.
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Jun 23, 2020 11:12
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As long as Office is interoperable it won't be nearly as bothersome as the PPC days.
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Jun 23, 2020 11:55
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Yeah app clips let me delete dumb apps that sit on my phone like the parking spot one that I use once or twice a year when I go to the beach or the scooter ones.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:11
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Boris Galerkin posted:I knew people were worried about x86-64 emulation, but I don't think anyone was worried that virtualization was going away period. IIRC Apple showed native x86-64 software running via Rosetta Stone, and they showed ARM Linux running in Parallels. But have they shown that Rosetta Stone can run an entire x86-64 OS like Windows or the linux variants that people actually use? I think that's key because there are non-Mac software that people need to use on their Macs. I highly highly HIGHLY doubt Rosetta will provide VT-x dynamic translation. I think it's more likely that the "virtualization" layer of OSX could provide some kind of qemu-esque x86-64 emulation but even that I'd be skeptical of. I think folks who will need to run x86-64 workloads will be forced to look to emulation (again, via qemu or a commercial product that I'm sure will spring up overnight) or just abandon the Mac for a native x86-64 Linux or Windows machine. I don't know what NDAs are in place, but assuming qemu has an existing ARM branch I would expect that the second someone gets one of the dev transition kit Mac Minis, qemu will be one of the first things recompiled and benchmarked and then we'll have our answer. some kinda jackal fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 12:28
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ratbert90 posted:Why not just use a native arm Linux like Fedora Arm? Is Apple going to write the video drivers in this case? I'm guessing they won't open up the docs so people can write their own. Same goes for power saving etc.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:52
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I have a 2012 MacBook. Still supported by Apple, but I’m betting not much longer. Runs fine, so likely any upgrades will be in a year or two when (In theory) poo poo gets more stable and a $1,000+ laptop is a more feasible purchase. If someone was buying a laptop now, would it be really smart or dumb to buy a 2020 MacBook Air (or Pro) ? The new MacBooks just got released and overall great reviews , so I’m just curious if people buying them are screwed out of future support as it switches to ARM, or better because the first round of ARM could be rocky since it’s a transition ?
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Jun 23, 2020 13:22
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Duckman2008 posted:If someone was buying a laptop now, would it be really smart or dumb to buy a 2020 MacBook Air (or Pro) ? You'd be fine. It should be good for at the very least 3 years. If you're still using a 2012 now, that's an 8 year old machine.
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Jun 23, 2020 13:44
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Bob Morales posted:You'd be fine. It should be good for at the very least 3 years. If you're still using a 2012 now, that's an 8 year old machine. Totally agree for 3ish years. Whenever I buy a Mac , the goal is longevity, so its more "would it last 5-8 ish years" support wise , both from Apple and developers ?
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Jun 23, 2020 13:57
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Eight years may be pushing it, but I don't think you should have an issue with at least five. Heck, given that the Intel install base is so huge I wouldn't be surprised if support was maintained longer by big developers as compared to the PowerPC->Intel transition. I think the only thing the ARM transition should factor into, in deciding a computer to buy TODAY is just how much you want to futureproof yourself by speccing up. If I needed a computer today and my use case wasn't heavy computing I would now probably go buy a lower priced machine that would get me through the immediate tasks I expect to do in the next year and change. If I had to make the same decision without the ARM news I would probably have picked up the biggest machine I could afford "just in case". That's just my philosophy though -- obviously others may have a differing viewpoint 
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Jun 23, 2020 14:47
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Yeah. For my timing, i expect my Mac Air to last at least another 2 years. Its just a web browsing and email machine at this point, my iPad / iPhone have mostly replaced it. So i'll likely go with whatever Arm Mac after the kinks are worked out, or possibly a 2020 Mac on sale depending on prices.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:05
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SlowBloke posted:There are a lot of services that require an app AND apple pay. App clips are for those scenarios. Also app clips let the service use a NFC TAG (instead of a NFC POS) which are immensely cheaper. Right, but my point was that if App Clips let’s you use a service without an account and with Apple Pay, then there is nothing stopping the real app to also let you use Apple Pay without an account. Eh I think this is something that I just need to see because no explanations are working and I’m biased towards thinking this is dumb.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:17
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Duckman2008 posted:Totally agree for 3ish years. Whenever I buy a Mac , the goal is longevity, so its more "would it last 5-8 ish years" support wise , both from Apple and developers ? I am pulling this out of my rear end and have no inside knowledge or talk to any Apple devs, but I would imagine that developers are going to be supporting Intel Macs for a relatively long amount of time compared to older versions of iOS. Unlike phones MacBooks aren’t really meant to be upgraded every year and probably the only people that buy new Macs every year are people with a spend it or loose it budget item for laptops. Any app that is also available for Windows is going to be supported forever and probably only pure Apple ecosystem apps like OmniFocus are going to abandon x86-64 anytime soon.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:25
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Boris Galerkin posted:Right, but my point was that if App Clips let’s you use a service without an account and with Apple Pay, then there is nothing stopping the real app to also let you use Apple Pay without an account. Apple likes to drag devs kicking and screaming towards a better user experience. Their goal is towards data minimisation. If they can handle all the details with a company in your behalf whilst handing over as little info as possible, that’s a big benefit.
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Jun 23, 2020 16:47
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a neurotic ai posted:They only transitioned to PowerPC when the performance curve suited them, not because they were seeking compatibility. Their bet is that their architecture is now sufficiently mature enough to make macs substantially more powerful than intel/x86 chips, and they are probably right. That it brings the most expensive part of the supply chain back in-house is no doubt just a convenient coincidence
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Jun 23, 2020 17:05
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Al-Saqr posted:So macs are going back to the Day's of PowerPC and not having any kind of compatibility in software and function with regular PC's lol... They don't have to build 'any thing from scratch'. The bulk of cross platform work (from an application developer perspective) is not because "this machine over here uses x86" and "this machine over here uses ARM". It's because of OS API level things. Integration with the Windowing API, integration with sound, and graphics, etc. Unless an application is making use of architecture dependent machine instructions (re: assembly), which is extremely rare these days, then there is ZERO work that needs to be done to compile an application for x86 vs ARM. And because macOS isn't changing in any significant ways with their kernel and user level APIs, there is going to be ZERO work there either for the programmer to recompile an application that worked on macOS x86 vs macOS ARM. It's literally going to be a compiler level switch change: "/arch:x86-64" -> "/arch:AppleARM" and push the "compile" button. xgalaxy fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 17:26
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:That it brings the most expensive part of the supply chain back in-house is no doubt just a convenient coincidence No doubt. I’m also not so convinced as a lot of others that Apple will be able to solve the problems with scaling performance per watt that Intel and AMD have encountered. Moving to a competitive architecture that lets them leverage the entrenched strengths of their dominant products is a boon for them, but Zen 3 and whatever Intel’s cooked up that’s held back by their fab woes are going to be capable products in their own right. It’s really weird to see tech enthusiasts muse that x86_64 will be dead in five years because Apple’s closing off their last external chip dependency.
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Jun 23, 2020 17:54
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Boris Galerkin posted:If downloading an App Clip can let you use the services of that app without needing to create an account then so can the actual app itself. Do people seriously worry about 10+ MB downloads? E: In the video it says you find these App Clips in the wild by scanning a (of course it is) proprietary Apple QR-like code. Why not just have that launch the widget to download the app from the App Store instead. For users that don't like to deal with that poo poo (but have no choice) it's a nice compromise, while for the companies it's a lower barrier to entry...and yeah, it's a gateway for users to download the full app. Martytoof posted:I highly highly HIGHLY doubt Rosetta will provide VT-x dynamic translation. I think it's more likely that the "virtualization" layer of OSX could provide some kind of qemu-esque x86-64 emulation but even that I'd be skeptical of. I'm guessing same goes for Wine/Crossover but wondering if that might be a different case. They already went through some hell to get 32-bit apps running on Catalina, doubtful but it'd be pretty cool/wacky if it worked w/Rosetta. Otherwise it looks like there's a Wine/QEMU project which I guess would be the way forward if they wanted to continue. Hasturtium posted:No doubt. I’m also not so convinced as a lot of others that Apple will be able to solve the problems with scaling performance per watt that Intel and AMD have encountered. Moving to a competitive architecture that lets them leverage the entrenched strengths of their dominant products is a boon for them, but Zen 3 and whatever Intel’s cooked up that’s held back by their fab woes are going to be capable products in their own right. It’s really weird to see tech enthusiasts muse that x86_64 will be dead in five years because Apple’s closing off their last external chip dependency. Course the difference is that Apple can go custom as gently caress for whatever specific needs they want instead of picking from the x86 parts bin, and they're not beholden to whatever other markets Intel/AMD have to design for.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:39
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Some Goon posted:As long as Office is interoperable it won't be nearly as bothersome as the PPC days. As long as the money truck is backing up to Microsoft, and not apple MS will happily port. A well spec'd microsoft 365 license is easily $40/user/mo these days. The added benefit is the iOS device version of offices will be less useless and more on par with its windows counterparts. I can see whole chunks of excel features cut out of those versions, which is fine for most people. You get those excel stans in there and you gut their offload to PowerBi or azure they'll raise hell.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:41
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Duckman2008 posted:Totally agree for 3ish years. Whenever I buy a Mac , the goal is longevity, so its more "would it last 5-8 ish years" support wise , both from Apple and developers ? Catalina is currently supported on 8 year old machines. You'll be fine, your computer won't become a brick the day the ARM Macs are released.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:44
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Yeah, the transition from PPC to Intel was a cluster because processor speeds and storage tech were improving so rapidly that a 3 year old PPC was positively ancient compared to a Core2Duo or Core2Quad, which is why PPC was cut relatively quickly. Intel Macs will be supported for at least the next 5 to 8 years after the ARM transition I would imagine.
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Jun 23, 2020 18:48
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