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Relax Or DIE posted:The 4x tier list: Explains why I like warlock 2 so much despite the jank
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Jul 4, 2021 23:24
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ikanreed posted:fun of micromanaging an empire citation needed
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Jul 5, 2021 15:55
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PerniciousKnid posted:I didn't mind buildings as much in civ 2/smac. I don't know if it's because the buildings were more interesting (certainly placing historical milestones is more evocative than Xenbrubium Mines), or because it was less annoying compared to moving units around, or I just had more time on my hands. This is a big issue in some games, especially ones that lean more heavily on either obscure history, or full fantasy. Age of Wonders Planetfall had this problem, the factions and planetary stuff were all unique, but a consequence of this was losing all familiarity with all aspects of the game, creating a much higher barrier to entry and ease of comprehension. Are laser Amazon tyrannosaurs better or worse against space mecha knights? Spearman vs cavalry might be unexciting, but it shorthands a ton of explanation. Similarly, fantasy tropes like tough dwarves and magical elves are boring, but they also leave plenty of room for exploring other aspects of the game. There are of course benefits to going fullly off the beaten path, exploring the new concepts can be fun (Endless Legend), and it can give more design space to play with, but I think it's a risk. Even in normal historical games, depending on how obscure the devs want to get with technology names and game concepts, it can be really hard to map what you're seeing in game to meaningful decisions that feel good, and are learned quickly (in some cases intuitively).
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Jul 5, 2021 22:45
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https://store.steampowered.com/app/1481170/ZEPHON/ I really enjoyed Gladius and this setting is extremely my poo poo
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Jul 26, 2021 17:26
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NoNotTheMindProbe posted:Elysium plays more like Heroes of Might and Magic or the old Warlords games where the focus is on having a few armies that go around fighting monsters and claiming resource sites. Much of the difference between factions comes from the different abilities that the leader classes have. this is one of my favorite genres but I can't get past the illwinter jank to enjoy Elysium :{
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Aug 14, 2021 23:51
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I wish diplomacy relationship webs would show map positions of the factions you're interacting with
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Aug 15, 2021 14:50
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Entorwellian posted:It kind of reminds of Eador: Masters of the Broken World but way more complex.  that's gonna be a no from me dawg
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Aug 23, 2021 12:20
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Interesting, this the Eador mod you're taking about? http://eador.com/B2/viewtopic.php?t=4559
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Aug 23, 2021 21:27
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my dad posted:Yeah I mixed up the names, New Horizons I was absolutely consumed by Eador when I first played it, it was the nuHoMM I'd been craving for years ... then I discovered the length was just orders of magnitude longer and bigger than I could sustain, and beyond that, it was deeply unintutive where/how/when to push and power up, so I remember struggling even more than in HoMM with the 'welp, lost my entire army game over' type save/reload situations, which weren't fun. But man, it was addictive as hell for awhile there. Then I bounced off MoTBW and didn't bother playing Imperium, since Masters was just absolute trashfire broken at launch, dunno if they ever fixed it. Eador is a land of contrasts is what I'm saying.
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Aug 24, 2021 00:11
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I spent a bunch of pointless time with a friend hashing out a 4x design that had regular board clearing resets as part of the core gameplay loop You basically kept aspects of your empire growth, but the world around you changed - and got progressively harder, with your foot on the gas to determine how much you pushed each reset I honestly think a lot of designs that address fundamental issues with 4x difficulty also actively push away the happy empire building casuals that make up the bulk of the audience, so I'm not sure I'm ever going to find one that really scratches my particular itch, definitely not in what passes for the "AAA" space. There are a few indies doing experimental stuff that I find appealing but that comes with the usual compromises in other areas.
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Feb 2, 2022 04:49
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Unit builders are a design tool that accidentally slipped into a production release (I'll grant an exception to games where the level of granularity is ship vs ship or whatever, and the individual greebles you're bolting on actually make a meaningful impact on engagements - this is 10000% not the case in empire sims)
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Feb 2, 2022 19:40
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the art and game concept and game inspiration all really appealed to me but I bounced off it pretty hard 
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Feb 3, 2022 01:36
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At this point I have this weird feeling that the nature of the genre is such that it attracts devs who are very likely to continue repeating the sins of the past It doesn't help the few games (not even good ones, just decent) that tried to break genre conventions didn't do especially well I am looking forward to Zephon, but mostly because of the setting, not because I think they'll fix fundamental issues https://store.steampowered.com/app/1481170/ZEPHON/ These days I mostly look for beer and pretzels games along the lines of Warlock 2 because I have zero faith even AAA studios can make a 4x that solves any of the countless issues with them, but constrained wargames with some building elements at least have a prayer of putting up a fight
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Jul 10, 2022 15:17
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I'm still struggling with the concept of a master of magic expansion
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Dec 18, 2022 18:43
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I don't know what thread this goes in. Management? Weird? https://store.steampowered.com/app/659540/Warsim_The_Realm_of_Aslona/
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Dec 21, 2022 07:57
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This just dropped: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1581770/SpellForce_Conquest_of_Eo/ It's not strictly a 4x, I think it feels more like an adventure/rpg/wargame hybrid with a focus on tactical combat and some pretty interesting building and upgrading mechanics (notably, your main 'town' is a floating mage tower you can move around the land to extract resources). Your apprentices build small towns to gather more, and there's a whole tower upgrade system for more economy as well as a crafting system and master of magic-esque spellcasting. I haven't played long enough to really give a firm opinion, but so far, polished, good translation, clean ui, and I like a lot of the mechanics they have going on here. Tons of units, unit upgrades, equipment, enchantments, abilities, etcetcetc.
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Feb 3, 2023 23:39
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Yep, the writing quality is quite good, and the 2d art is killer Unless I run into something really bad I think this is a slam dunk for fans of its antecedents, particularly given the price e: I think I'd recommend bumping up the difficulty a notch or two if you're a vet victrix fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 00:59
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DrManiac posted:Is there anything in-game that tells you what the 3 classes actually get access to? Each class gets a distinct crafting mechanic, Alchemist can make lots of one shot items usable in battle, everything from basic healing items to potions allowing permanent enslavement of enemy units (items labeled as catalysts have special effects for alchemist crafting, you can ignore that tag on the other two afaik) Artificer can make one use runes with permanent effects on your units (each tier of ore improves the power of the same rune recipe fyi, e.g. one of the greater rune types gives pathfinding for terrain to a whole stack which rules) Necromancer straight up crafts units! Each of the three also has occasional gimmes in rpg events, though that's not really something to plan around
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Feb 4, 2023 13:58
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habituallyred posted:If somebody asked you how it compared to the Fallen Enchantress series, what would you say? I would say I think FE is a bad game  (but I will give them at least a few points for trying to fix some 4x issues with sorcerer king, which this game is similar to in some ways) It's much closer to a blend of Age of Wonders and an RPG, in the same way Spellforce itself is a blend of RTS+RPG. You only ever have your tower and any hamlets built by your (limited number of) apprentices. You don't build or conquer cities, you interact with fixed cities on the fixed world map, getting quests, units, blueprints, and items from them if you work on your reputation with that faction. Your "empire" is essentially a traveling mage caravan, because fixed resources deplete as you exploit them within your borders (tower or hamlets), so you're strongly encouraged to pack up and move periodically - which both pushes you into more dangerous lands, and potentially into conflict with the Circle of mages, who are stronger than you out of the gate. Your tower can literally fly, and apprentices can make new hamlets in just a few turns, so moving is easy. Quests and your own decisions will impact how and when you get into fights with the Circle (the members present are random each game afaik). While the map is fixed, the quests (supposedly around 700, with random elements), mages (random selection each game), resources, enemies and more are all different each game, combine that with multiple starting locations around the world and multiple class specialties and spell books, hundreds of units and items, mean that any given play through will be different depending on how you approach it. Speaking of, the map is loving gigantic, and you only need to complete the main quest to win, so while you could theoretically go everywhere and "do everything", I'm not going to be playing like that since it sounds like a good way to burn out.
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Feb 4, 2023 15:24
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Dav posted:Conquest of Eo question: how do you *stop* enchanting a unit? top right widget:  e: also confirming Hard is, in fact, hard victrix fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 21:00
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backspace, bind it with ahk or whatever (devs said more key stuff coming) Yeah Hard is absurd, I'm pretty sure I lost this game months ago, but I'm playing it out for the practice, I'll bump it down one and try another location for the next game Multiple doom stacks of mixed t3/t2 from every circle mage while I have t2 at best, every roaming pack is 7 units 
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Feb 6, 2023 14:46
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there's a point in the main story where you get directly involved with the circle, it implies there is a peaceful route, but I'm not certain the best way to do that - once they hit cold war they're happy to attack your stacks and take your hamlets, and your rep will spiral if you retaliate in general doing stuff in an area seems to trigger quests related to that area, so you may be able to do the same thing near mages
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Feb 6, 2023 17:53
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Chas McGill posted:Why is Conquest of Eo getting such harsh reviews on steam? Seems like this thread loves it and I'm more inclined to trust that opinion. the two main ones are Spellforce players mad it's not Spellforce 4 and review bombing it (  ) and people who are used to sim city 4x games getting their poo poo pushed in by the escalation
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Feb 10, 2023 13:28
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https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1623070/view/3682292513183048363?l=english Goblins coming to Master of Magic Fat Rat 
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Feb 17, 2023 23:01
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you're welcome, and if you enjoyed warlock 2 I'd highly recommend Spellforce Conquest of Eo, it leans real hard into the rpg and combat aspects, with the 4x mostly being exploring the world and extracting resources (go with Artificer or Necromancer first, with whatever spellbooks sound fun) I think you *might* enjoy Master of Magic, there's a new remake of it that just came out, though I will caution it's a remake of a very old, very unbalanced game - but it's beloved because you can make ridiculous fantasy armies and conquer two worlds with them
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Feb 21, 2023 19:24
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I just remembered the most beer and pretzels space 4x, it's more like a lunch break game, but since you seem to dig on stuff that isn't obnoxiously complex, you might like this: https://store.steampowered.com/app/562230/Space_Tyrant/ You can easily figure out if you enjoy it in the refund window
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Feb 21, 2023 20:29
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Deptfordx posted:I also liked the Warlock games, how are the Eador titles? I've never touched them. HoMM + eurojank I'd recommend Spellforce over Eador, but Eador is fun if you're looking for that specific niche Hero's Hour is a modern indie version of HoMM that's really charming, real time pausable combat instead of grid based tbs, so it's a silly mash of bouncing pixel dragons and dwarves
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Feb 22, 2023 01:14
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Rappaport posted:I'm late to the party, but rambling thoughts: 4X's in general are a bit of a mess. Hence the thread title, I suppose. Give Spellforce: Conquest a try imo 4xs are never going to break out of their shackles, anything that pushes the genre forward will be kind of... genre adjacent (like what Against the Storm is doing for city builders), or what Spellforce is trying to do - I don't think it's revolutionary or perfect by any means, but asymmetrical engagement is one of the few ways the AI can be anything more than a punching bag once you know how to play <4x #4324> I'd probably put Warlock 2 and Gladius in that category as well, they're closer to wargames than 4xs though (the Gladius devs are working on a super funky cool 4x? that has a setting entirely my jam: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1481170/ZEPHON/) - but simply covering the map with unit producing cities and building up your forces to smash the enemy on a big map is pretty fun, turns out (Warlock's world hopping, like Master of Magic was always a huge draw to me also - Eador has that, but it's uh... it has its own issues) I think ultimately the decision webs that 4x games spawn are just utterly anathema to where we're at with AI opponents, so the best polished games make them pleasant punching bags, the worst make them empty unit shufflers also pretty important to note you can generally get anywhere from hundreds to thousands of hours out of 'just ok' AI in 4xs, so it's really a self inflicted complaint for hardcore strategy nerds
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Feb 22, 2023 11:56
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asymmetric design answers that, by having the AI play a different game than the player - with the intent not being to play the same snowball 4x ICS as the player, but instead to present an interesting and enjoyable challenge (cf. AI War) the baked in assumption that the CPU players must play the same game as the player without cheating (screeching from the 4x audience), hamstrings so many 4x games from the word go some of the grand strategy games do this to some extent, but I find those entirely boring so
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Feb 22, 2023 23:23
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Next Spellforce patch is out: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1581770/view/3657523159362470882?l=english
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Feb 24, 2023 15:52
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orangelex44 posted:Once again I advocate that if every space game deleted their ship designer it would immediately be a better game. unit designers are accidentally exposed dev tools, change my mind
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Mar 20, 2023 03:42
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there's an alternate timeline where Kohan was a really popular RTS and its ideas of army building and not-always-fatal combat took hold if you squint I guess total warhamster and stellaris have some of this at play but... army building is almost always "whatever you pile into the stack" in most 4x games, and combat is very often winner take all, which causes horrendous snowballing problems specifically thinking about the strategic/tactical problem, where you're really playing two games linked by badly welded joints, Age of Wonders is probably my poster child for this, where the tactical combat can be really fun, but most of the time it's either complaining about the auto resolve, manually fighting inconsequential battles, or if you're really really lucky, you get a roughly even battle that's entertaining! ... except you don't actually want those, because losses are bad, you want those snowballing nothing fights to insure strategic victory the games that dodge that are almost all single unit per tile games where individual losses are less catastrophic, but you often pay the price there with much less interesting combat (and frequently, daft ai) not saying there are easy answers to these problems, but man it sucks watching the 4x genre walk from rake to rake
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Mar 20, 2023 17:00
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personality based ai with completely transparent behavior is a much better system even if it results in stupid or sub optimal decisions, because you can play around them, and mixing them in one game creates interesting and fun situations (sup ai war) but this assumes you get your game to a place where the ai is competent in the first place by launch which, well *gestures at genre*
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Mar 21, 2023 20:19
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just cross your fingers and hope there's some up and coming devs who love 4x games but hate the current stagnation and we might see some new takes now I'm trying to think if 4x is even a popular Kickstarter genre, I don't think it is, I can't think of many crowd funded ones
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Mar 22, 2023 19:14
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the strategic layer is a very bad UI for what should be a slay the spire series of pitched battles awarding new units and upgrades change my mind
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Apr 4, 2023 00:16
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Heroes Hour feels like it was made specifically for that, it's HoMM to a fault but the combat is real time army auto battle
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Apr 4, 2023 00:55
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thinking on it, I'm pretty sure I wanted to murder almost all the smac leaders
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Apr 4, 2023 17:35
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Corbeau posted:The fact that thinking about it is required to reach this conclusion is why SMAC owns. I believe the lesson is ideologies suck rear end, it's just a question of what flavor of rear end
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Apr 4, 2023 17:51
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LordSloth posted:It’s not at all a 4x, but this logistics talk has me fondly remembering Kohan and it’s expansion, and even the challenge of fighting in a jungle thanks to supply, flanking, and lines of retreat. If I squint, Total War carried on some of the thoughts there, but I still think Kohan's army system, army building, army cap, and morale/resupply mechanics were absolutely top notch and should have been more widely adopted Man that game was incredibly fun in 4v4 for the ~6-12 months people played it
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Apr 13, 2023 09:28
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Apr 30, 2023 18:29
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