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PetraCore posted:Can't believe Enoch was Demian this entire time.
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Apr 13, 2024 02:48
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Aumanor posted:that's another Little Prince reference.  ...and it's a very specific color.
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Apr 13, 2024 03:09
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If they're not the same person I'm pretty convinced they're heavily related, at least.
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Apr 13, 2024 03:44
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someone floated that RR4: Masquerade's gimmick might be forced ID switches which would be... uh, interesting.
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Apr 13, 2024 04:10
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GilliamYaeger posted:Yeah, Demian and Enoch are almost certainly the same person. He's even got the little gem that all the Ruina Sephirah have on their outfits... PetraCore posted:If they're not the same person I'm pretty convinced they're heavily related, at least. it's not the same color though. or shape. I think you're trying to connect the dots a bit too quickly on this one. e: plus Tiphereth's whole character arc was about letting him go, having it amount to "oh he was alive the entire time and also going to school in some random place with Sinclair for no reason" would be dumb. e2: no_fun_allowed.jpg Yinlock fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 04:44
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Finally, we have a new iteration of "Roland is TOTALLY a Claw" in the form of Enochian! but for an even wackier version, what if Demian would be Enoch from a Mirror World?
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Apr 13, 2024 06:04
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I certainly don't think the Demian/Enoch connections are a COINCIDENCE but I'm also gonna bet money they're not the same guy. I'm pretty sure it's been implied that while the River is mostly metaphorical, there are physical locations where it forms "springs" of a sort, and that certain Abnormalities were created by said physical springs. For example, Nosferatu most likely existed prior to LobCorp's founding, and if I'm correct about Limbus' prologue then the Three Birds may as well be City natives.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:04
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Aumanor posted:I'm still not convinced the River is anything physical so I went trawling through the LobCorp LP to look for supporting evidence, but before I found all the relevant sections I noticed this and... The River is a physical place. They pulled the Birds from there.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:21
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Friend did Science with Heath Binds: If he has multiple speed slots the turn after he uses it, all of his used skills splash. So solo fights with him have an edge.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:32
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Probe 17 posted:I certainly don't think the Demian/Enoch connections are a COINCIDENCE but I'm also gonna bet money they're not the same guy.
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Apr 13, 2024 06:48
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KobunFan posted:The River is a physical place. They pulled the Birds from there. The Birds technically existed in the Dark Forest too, and the River is representative of the human subconscious, where all that stuff lives i think the river could be physical, but also the River means more than that. its the holes in reality that causes things we don't understand to exist in the Outskirts, too. like the way that guy became The Crying Thing out there
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Apr 13, 2024 06:54
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Based on the weird squiggly shadow beneath the figure in The Dream Ending on the roadmap, I'm guessing that figure is a new member of Demian's cohort. In the Limbus Trailer there's a figure whose hair does the same kind of swirling and coincidences aren't real.
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Apr 13, 2024 07:13
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The birds do exist in real life in the city. They're called The Head, the Eye, and the Claw.
Octatonic fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 07:26
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KobunFan posted:The River is a physical place. They pulled the Birds from there. The birds in particular are weird because their forest is a place that exists and the story implies they're real things. Abnormalities can spawn on their own, it's just real rare compared to dredging 'em e: All-Around Helper is another example of a "real" abno. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 13, 2024 |
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Apr 13, 2024 15:29
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can we give a shout-out to Meursault using his EGO to hold Erlking Heath in that one scene? Man's taking initiative and doing the smart thing!
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Apr 13, 2024 23:08
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With the end of Canto 6, I'm glad I kept faith in PM. Probably going to take a break from the game after getting Pursuance Rodion and WetSuitMael. Something that has been bothering me with the ending tho. Like, we know from Leviathan that Ruby had an ID where they died from a plan crashing on them. Multiverse setting also typically involve an infinite amount of possibility so it's kinda weird how limited the whole verse seem to be in Canto 6? Like sure, I can write off Nelly missing possibilities since she was manipulated into doing stuff or Erlking&AllCathy since they were so entrenched in their despair but... What about the world where they never was a Cathy because Mr&Mrs Earnshaw didn't feel like it that night? What about Heathcliff simply dying on the street before Mr Earnshaw could bring him back? How are they supposed to be affected by Catherine going 404 if Heathcliff&Catherine never met and develop the necessary relationship to break each other appart? Doesn't make any sense if we can just a side universe that has planes in it! So I found my solution to this whole ordeal. Very elegant I like to think. Between the event of Leviathan&Limbus, the Head just looked at the MirrorVerse, decided it was too much and put a limiter on the amount of Mirror World you can access within said universe, sorta like Rick&Morty thingy. Of course, Walpurgis would be just the limiter loving up with the Head just cheking up if the ID pulled is allowed and that would explain how the plan of both Erlking&AllCathy could work because otherwise they would just be searching for every Heathcliff&Catherine Ad vitam æternam. Aumanor posted:that's another Little Prince reference. Does he also make some Blue Star reference? Like the whole "We'll be reborn as star!", the blue scheme, his explanation as to why he doesn't give a crap about TCorp singularities, etc ? Yinlock posted:it's not the same color though. or shape. I think you're trying to connect the dots a bit too quickly on this one. Might be just dead and is staying around as a ghost. That or he was ressurected, decided to copy Carmen&Ayin and become Jesus 3.0 Junpei posted:can we give a shout-out to Meursault using his EGO to hold Erlking Heath in that one scene? Man's taking initiative and doing the smart thing! Went from "Manager didn't give order" to "I'm going to do it myself" Also is anyone is going to mention that the not!Command Seed is based on the Tree of Life? Specifically Hokma? With a bind effect? Which is related to the Price of Silence? Whose name quite literally mirror Dante if they didn't stop Erlking to do stuff? I hope Nelly get to inherint the manor after Heathcliff is done with it.
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Apr 14, 2024 00:24
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I mean a big part of the resolution of Canto 6 is that your subjectivity can affect the mirror worlds. Erlking Heath admits as much when he finally sees the mirror world with the younger generation. His grief and anger blinded him to the possibility of worlds that didn't fit the impossible world he longed for. Cathy is the same way. Her grief is reflected back at her through the alternate worlds, and reinforces itself. It's building on and escalating Yi Sang's experience in his Canto, with his obsession with his "perfected" self that he is convinced can only exist in a different world. It's also why the mirrors are hosed up, and probably shouldn't exist. Demian's right.
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Apr 14, 2024 01:02
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Junpei posted:can we give a shout-out to Meursault using his EGO to hold Erlking Heath in that one scene? Man's taking initiative and doing the smart thing! Yeah I noticed that. That was a little... strange?
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Apr 14, 2024 01:22
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KobunFan posted:Yeah I noticed that. That was a little... strange? Someone pointed out that the EGO's affinity changes from Pride to Gloom during that scene, as shown by the colors of the "tear apart" animation as the EGO launches. Wonder what that's about?
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Apr 14, 2024 01:23
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...Are Mirror Worlds even real? Like, are they actual parallel universes, or are they just the cognition equivalent of reflected light on a pane of glass?
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Apr 14, 2024 01:24
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GilliamYaeger posted:...Are Mirror Worlds even real? Like, are they actual parallel universes, or are they just the cognition equivalent of reflected light on a pane of glass? All the rules are made up, and any evidence in favor of one interpretation can be rationalized away by the other interpretation. It's very "but what if it was all just a dream". Which, personally, is a boring rear end direction to take. RandomReader fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 01:49
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GilliamYaeger posted:...Are Mirror Worlds even real? Like, are they actual parallel universes, or are they just the cognition equivalent of reflected light on a pane of glass? EDIT: I'm kind of absurdly touched by Heathcliff promising to use his ownership of Wuthering Heights to free Nelly, because he understands she was sucked into the reinforcing thought trap of the Mirror someone else handed her and saw the bad option as her only option. I mean, I guess Nelly isn't personally responsible for all the hosed up crimes happening here, Hermann is because she set up a situation to get what she wanted, and Nelly and Catherine and Linton just share various shares of the responsibility for being okay with it, but that's still a really gentle response from him. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Apr 14, 2024 |
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Apr 14, 2024 01:52
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GilliamYaeger posted:...Are Mirror Worlds even real? Like, are they actual parallel universes, or are they just the cognition equivalent of reflected light on a pane of glass? they are and they arent imo. they're as real as we make them, and I think part of of the idea here is that we can only really understand them as "mirrors", and thus subjugated to our (more real world), which is not a healthy relationship to have. RandomReader posted:Is real life real, or is it just an incredibly vivid hallucination my brain is having from the inside of a jar? I mean its intentional that we don't understand its bounds, since it's kind of the core of the story. the bus team is using a technology that their bosses and their rivals understand better than they do, and they're trying to catch up. being able to have multiple interpretations of events is good! it means there's a lot to dig into, thematically. the city has always been a setting where "technology" exists that resists having hard and fast rules. abnormalities are ALL "the rules are made up"
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Apr 14, 2024 02:13
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IMO the Mirror being a 'reflection' means even if it's accessing an infinite multiverse you're still limited in seeing only the parts that reflect back to you making the person looking the filter that makes the Mirrorverse finite. So the Heaths and Cathies can't see a world where they're happy together cause a Heath and Cathy happy together wouldn't be 'them' and thus not reflected.
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Apr 14, 2024 02:55
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NotteBoy97 posted:IMO the Mirror being a 'reflection' means even if it's accessing an infinite multiverse you're still limited in seeing only the parts that reflect back to you making the person looking the filter that makes the Mirrorverse finite. So the Heaths and Cathies can't see a world where they're happy together cause a Heath and Cathy happy together wouldn't be 'them' and thus not reflected. This is more or less explicitly what is going on with Walpurgisnacht and the pure "dough". You can only see/interact with Mirror Worlds close to your own normally, or in Dante's case ones they could conceive/perceive as similar to what already exists of their Sinners. Walpurgisnacht expands the pool to stuff Dante could never conceive, mostly because they're so far back that the Sinners should have significantly different backstories (Sinclair is too young to have ever been an employee of Lob Corp but will probably get an identity from Walpurgisnacht for it eventually, Magic Bullet Outis is missing 10-15 years of travel post Smoke War if she is even a Smoke War veteran at all). Similarly the pure "Dough" allows for any Identity to be placed over a person, rather than needing a version of the original person or a significantly entangled person. Hence Erlking Heathcliff being able to full manifest into our world over the Linton Goop, whereas previously he was only half manifested using Isabella as his host. A woman who had fallen in love with him obsessively to the point where she could host him successfully.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:03
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L.U.I.G.I posted:Might be just dead and is staying around as a ghost. That or he was ressurected, decided to copy Carmen&Ayin and become Jesus 3.0 it's both extremely unlikely and would just be making GBS threads on Tiph's whole Thing if he was still around somehow GilliamYaeger posted:...Are Mirror Worlds even real? Like, are they actual parallel universes, or are they just the cognition equivalent of reflected light on a pane of glass? That's always been pretty unclear. I guess it doesn't really matter so much as the mirror breaking brains because people start obsessing over the possibilities they see in it more than reality(Kromer(well she was nuts from the start but her obsession with Sinclair comes from that), Yi Sang, all of canto 6) Lord_Magmar posted:This is more or less explicitly what is going on with Walpurgisnacht and the pure "dough". Seems like the more "refractions" the crazier the possibilities get. I'm guessing two is the most you can do "safely" since 0000 IDs aren't a thing
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Apr 14, 2024 03:37
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Finishing the Canto, I had the really funny thought that Heathcliff might not own Wuthering Heights anymore, because he only owned it because he was included in Catherine's will and her estate defaulted to him, but Catherine erased herself from reality, which means the will is either not legal anymore or it's legal but nobody can remember who it was for and why this unknown woman owned Wuthering Heights. Like, going with the discussion about mirror worlds, it might be less that she deleted herself from every mirror world in reality but by deleting herself, only mirror worlds without a Catherine can be reflected anymore, and without a Catherine in this world the incursion has no reason to happen. But that sort of exclusion from reality in this world has to leave scars. Heathcliff doesn't just remember Catherine because of his contract with Dante, because the other Sinners forgot, so he remembers because he'd stabbed himself with the Bough to connect with her, I think. But now Nelly remembers Hermann giving her the mirror and lending the estate the Bough, but does she remember why if she doesn't remember Catherine? Does the mind just build scaffolding in where the gaps are, like your brain filling in gaps in visual information with a guess? Does she think Linton made the laboratory? Does she remember moving to the Edgar household? Aside from Heathcliff, Nelly is the person most impacted by erasing Catherine from continuity, because Linton and Hindley are dead and her motives and even her life make no loving sense with that gap. With that in mind, I'm really not sure if we're going to see her working with Hermann in the future. I agree she was only returning the Bough, and I can't exactly blame her for that, because N Corp is a loving Wing and Limbus Company is a very well funded but much smaller and less influential company, and there must have been a contract about lending out the Bough, so even if she wanted to let us take it, she'd have been left holding the bag if she did. Even swapping out the Bough with the damaged one isn't viable for her, because Hermann knows enough about the experiment to know which Bough was in the coffin. That said, Nelly didn't seem to hold any animosity for Heathcliff at the end, and with Catherine gone, I don't think she'd even have remembered why she started working with Hermann in the first place. Her entire motivation for working for Hermann is gone, so taking the Bough to return seems more like closing out that contract than a desire to keep working with Hermann. And with Catherine gone from reality, the entire experiment with her at the core is so collapsed and nonsensical I'm not even sure how many of the crimes that happened could be traced back to Nelly, because she only acted through Cathy.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:44
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PetraCore posted:Finishing the Canto, I had the really funny thought that Heathcliff might not own Wuthering Heights anymore, because he only owned it because he was included in Catherine's will and her estate defaulted to him, but Catherine erased herself from reality, which means the will is either not legal anymore or it's legal but nobody can remember who it was for and why this unknown woman owned Wuthering Heights. It seems like a mind-bridges-the-gap thing, the events themselves didn't change but there's a Cathy-shaped hole in peoples' memories. anyway i'm gonna say he owns the heights now just so he can rename it to Heath Cliff.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:51
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In all honesty without Catherine the Heights would have gone to Hindley anyway, and in theory Heathcliff is the last legal child of Mr Earnshaw. So without Hindley the estate should go to Heath as the last possible inheritor.
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Apr 14, 2024 03:54
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Yeah, Heathcliff probably still owns WH. It's still absolutely mind boggling to think about what Nelly must be grappling with. No wonder she focused on the one part she could understand and act on, which was returning the borrowed Bough to Hermann. I'm sure we'll get it in the end, even if I'm uncomfortable with the sorts of things Hermann's group can use it for.
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Apr 14, 2024 04:02
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Do you think the roof bough was Gregor's and the basement one was Heath's, or vice-versa?
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Apr 14, 2024 04:08
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Junpei posted:Do you think the roof bough was Gregor's and the basement one was Heath's, or vice-versa? The one in the basement was owned by Catherine and what she intended to give Heathcliff after the seventh lightning strike. The one on the roof therefore must have been the one from Canto I.
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Apr 14, 2024 04:09
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I feel like the City's legal system would have something in place to deal with people suddenly ceasing to exist, considering things like the Concept Incinerator.
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Apr 14, 2024 04:26
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GilliamYaeger posted:I feel like the City's legal system would have something in place to deal with people suddenly ceasing to exist, considering things like the Concept Incinerator.
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Apr 14, 2024 05:02
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studio mujahideen posted:I mean its intentional that we don't understand its bounds, since it's kind of the core of the story. the bus team is using a technology that their bosses and their rivals understand better than they do, and they're trying to catch up. being able to have multiple interpretations of events is good! it means there's a lot to dig into, thematically. It doesn't help that the "Mirror" technology comprises at least 5 different inventions* since every former member of the Guinhoe appears to give their own spin to the technology.  * Glass, Window, Mirror, Puddle, Water.
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Apr 14, 2024 08:09
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GilliamYaeger posted:I feel like the City's legal system would have something in place to deal with people suddenly ceasing to exist, considering things like the Concept Incinerator. Yeah they'd kind of have to or corps would just throw people into the Incinerator rather than pay them. I mean that still probably happens sometimes but still. studio mujahideen posted:they are and they arent imo. they're as real as we make them, and I think part of of the idea here is that we can only really understand them as "mirrors", and thus subjugated to our (more real world), which is not a healthy relationship to have. tbf each individual abnormality does have set rules, it's just different for every single one. the only real uniting principle is that they turn into eggs and they're all fixated on something or other Lord_Magmar posted:The one in the basement was owned by Catherine and what she intended to give Heathcliff after the seventh lightning strike. The one on the roof therefore must have been the one from Canto I. chasing Gregor's backstory across the land
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Apr 14, 2024 21:03
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PetraCore posted:I still think it's really funny she talks about how on a particularly abusive Christmas tiny Heathcliff turned to her and explained that plotting elaborate revenge was the only thing that made the pain inside stop. Which, like, does seem likely to be his motivation later in life but if that actually had happened and she just brushed it off it paints her even worse! Book!Heath's history with Christmas really explains why he got that Holiday ID.  Probe 17 posted:Wuthering Heights was absolutely built over The River and that plays a big part of why the place is such a weird hellhole. Super cool Josephine wanted to drink directly from it, I'm sure that'd go great. In Josephine's defense, while she's both insane and an rear end in a top hat she was hosed over by the Butler contracts as bad as Nelly was-possibly even worse, considering that Outis's Josephine ID mentions having generations of ancestors buried under the manor. Except that while Nelly resented the system, Josephine embraced it and developed a fixation on the waters as an eventual end to her duties and reward. Also, side note, WTF was going on there, this isn't even just about the homoerotic subtext but also what was Mrs. Earnshaw doing? It seems like something seriously important to just set away and give to a side character who was barely mentioned a few times in the original text and who had both characters with a connection to her die. Though I guess considering some of the other surprise literary cameos and Josephine's behavior, it's possible that she could turn out to be Rebecca from the novel of the same name? /half-joking
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Apr 15, 2024 00:14
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t3isukone posted:Book!Heath's history with Christmas really explains why he got that Holiday ID. Funny, I had that clipped in instead of Bodysack while I was doing the chapter, so in the final battle, Heath was beating people up with a cheery Christmas sack.
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Apr 15, 2024 00:17
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Honestly, it's nice to have this chapter's boss readily available to fight without slogging through another dungeon - feels like this is the first time I've gone back to a Canto boss to fight it again, either to do a better job of it (re: pure Sinking team) or trying out different teams (poise-ish team with Dieci Rodya to do a bit of Sinking, as a treat). And I absolutely love the presentation for this fight, especially when I can pull of a phase switch in time with Through Patches of Violet. Plus, seeing the background switch between locations key to the other Cantos - Dongrang's field from Canto IV, a boat on the Great Lake, what I'm guessing is Sinclair's school from Canto III, and what looks like the District 4 L Corp branch facility from Canto I - was interesting. Minor resonance from the other Sinners with the Bough, I guess? Verant fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 02:00
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Verant posted:Honestly, it's nice to have this chapter's boss readily available to fight without slogging through another dungeon - feels like this is the first time I've gone back to a Canto boss to fight it again, either to do a better job of it (re: pure Sinking team) or trying out different teams (poise-ish team with Dieci Rodya to do a bit of Sinking, as a treat). I'm pretty sure the backgrounds would be different mirror worlds that Elrking has encountered. Or at least are intended to represent versions of Heathcliff and Catherine's tragedy. Certainly your list fits with many of the shown Heathcliff and Cathy combos from the end. Dongrang Field for Sunshower + Scientist, Boat for Queecliff, school for High School AU, Branch Facility for Abnormality AU.
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Apr 15, 2024 02:51
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