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I gotta say, I really gotta give credit to the sprite animators for this Canto. some of Erlking Heath's moves are drat good to look at, especially anything involving Cathy's coffin or his headless horse. That one move where he slams someone into it and then slashes in an X from atop the horse, or him stabbing his sword into the ground and doing a slam from above, MUAH. And let's not forget Vergie's stuff. I cannot wait for the Limbus equivalent to Serum W.
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Apr 15, 2024 04:50
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Junpei posted:I gotta say, I really gotta give credit to the sprite animators for this Canto. One of the most disappointing things of the canto was that it's impossible to see the entire animation of Vergil's 5 coin attack.
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Apr 15, 2024 04:54
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Junpei posted:I gotta say, I really gotta give credit to the sprite animators for this Canto. on the flip side i laughed when Heathcliff popped Bodysack and slid along the floor like an action figure at the finale I mean I know that's how Limbus characters normally move but it was his standing sprite so it's like someone waxed the roof
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Apr 15, 2024 05:48
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Yinlock posted:on the flip side i laughed when Heathcliff popped Bodysack and slid along the floor like an action figure at the finale What, an entire bloody fight to the death in the middle of a thunderstorm and you don't think anyone's gonna slip at least once???
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Apr 15, 2024 06:40
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Yinlock posted:on the flip side i laughed when Heathcliff popped Bodysack and slid along the floor like an action figure at the finale Virtual Insanity but it's Heathcliff sliding in with Bodysack
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Apr 15, 2024 07:05
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  New IDs details Ishamel looks awkward to fit inside either a Sinking team or a Poise team but the passive could be pretty sweet in a Sinking composition? But that would mean pass on Wetmael which is a lot to ask. Ryoshu on the other hand... 
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Apr 15, 2024 11:17
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Verant posted:Honestly, it's nice to have this chapter's boss readily available to fight without slogging through another dungeon - feels like this is the first time I've gone back to a Canto boss to fight it again, either to do a better job of it (re: pure Sinking team) or trying out different teams (poise-ish team with Dieci Rodya to do a bit of Sinking, as a treat). I love that there's a Roland/Angelica universe in the ending montage.
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Apr 15, 2024 11:49
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Apr 15, 2024 13:02
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Lord_Magmar posted:I'm pretty sure the backgrounds would be different mirror worlds that Elrking has encountered. Or at least are intended to represent versions of Heathcliff and Catherine's tragedy. Certainly your list fits with many of the shown Heathcliff and Cathy combos from the end. Dongrang Field for Sunshower + Scientist, Boat for Queecliff, school for High School AU, Branch Facility for Abnormality AU. Something that strike me really as funny is how is Erlking going to deal with PequodCliff? They are in the middle of the sea that want to kill them. Even if he manage to drop of Captain Ishmael boat, everyone is going to look at him weird before yeeting him overboard as per Captain order.
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Apr 15, 2024 13:31
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lmao that we get a whole chapter of sinking IDs, Ryoshu still has that Sinking EGO that is absolutely useless on her, and her 3 star ends up being another poise ID.
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Apr 15, 2024 13:32
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Turns out that Meursault's Gloom Chains of Others after the first fight against Erlking Heathcliff was a mistake, so all the theorizing over it was for naught. This is from the 4th page of the patch notes btw.
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Apr 15, 2024 13:42
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Maraca Sinclair has a friend in the poise/sinking I.D. club! A few more of those, and we'll have a poise/sinking mirror dungeon team running Lucky Bag and Black Sheet Music. ...which isn't quite as impressive as Lucky Bag+Bloody Mist. hm. still, probably going to do a few such runs for the novelty, when/if it becomes possible
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Apr 15, 2024 13:54
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microfolk posted:
Ryoshu: I...was not expecting a Poise ID. She seems alright, has actual useful effects instead of the usual useless Ryoshu [On Kill] suite so that's a plus. And she has a blue S2 so she's viable enough. Seriously though why is she Poise. Ishmael: Only one coin inflicts Count without much to make up for that. Also in the "why is she Poise" club, weren't these guys based around debuffs? Good support passive but Ishmael is never going to be benched on the Sinking team. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 15:19
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L.U.I.G.I posted:Something that strike me really as funny is how is Erlking going to deal with PequodCliff? They are in the middle of the sea that want to kill them. Even if he manage to drop of Captain Ishmael boat, everyone is going to look at him weird before yeeting him overboard as per Captain order. Given that a Color needed to step in to stop the onslaught, I doubt the crew would be alive.
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Apr 15, 2024 16:12
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Ryoshu having poise is fine. She actually has Nelly's primary mechanic, which is the butler's mark thing. She lacks specifically the three chain perma-stagger but otherwise gets all the other things Nelly was mere or less doing. Nelly didn't use sinking. In fact Nelly actually does use poise in her boss fight. Ishmael has poise because she was training under Ryoshu Nelly and Sinking because every Wuthering Heights identity except Ryoshu(Nelly) and Meursault(Matt) have Sinking. Probably because Outis(Josephine) is training everyone to defend against Heathcliff(Heathcliff). Remember, everyone in the mirror world is banding together to protect Wuthering Heights from Heathcliff. The Edgar Butlers and Wuthering Heights butlers are a unified force under Outis's leadership. Gregor is learning from her too, only Ryoshu (head butler for the Edgar Family) and Meursault are not part of Outis's training regime. Ishmael is one of the elite female Edgar butlers so she's learnt poise from Ryoshu as well. If anything the reason she's primarily poise not sinking is because the sinking is "newer" for that Ishmael than the poise stuff. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 16:18
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Yinlock posted:Ryoshu: I...was not expecting a Poise ID. She seems alright, has actual useful effects instead of the usual useless Ryoshu [On Kill] suite so that's a plus. And she has a blue S2 so she's viable enough. Seriously though why is she Poise. My first instinct is that they basically wanted the maid IDs to care about relative speed and inflicting stuff like Bind because that's a big part of the enemies' identity. Thus they wanted them to work with other IDs in that specific sub-identity, and the IDs that care about that are either chefs or Cinq. Thus... they made Ryoshu and Ishmael an alternate take on the broader "go fast, get a big Poise crit" Cinq identity, because that fits with how they wanted the maids to work as PCs and they didn't want to make it one-to-one with the enemy attacks.
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Apr 15, 2024 16:21
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I’m at a midpoint of lobcorp where I’m at day 30 and it doesn’t feel like there’s much of a reason to take non-was or aleph abnos since they’re the best for training, unless they’re a pain to manage. Or if I need to get their data. But also it doesn’t feel super possible to complete the game on this loop if I don’t have all the best gear. I’ve gotten a bit better at keeping my nuggets out of harms way during suppression and most of my characters are at level 5, but it doesn’t feel worth it to suppress Blue Star if I don’t have 2 other alephs to suppress. I can also do Apocalypse Bird but Judgement Bird hasn’t appeared yet. Also gently caress firebird
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Apr 15, 2024 16:59
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Lord_Magmar posted:Ryoshu having poise is fine. She actually has Nelly's primary mechanic, which is the butler's mark thing. She lacks specifically the three chain perma-stagger but otherwise gets all the other things Nelly was mere or less doing. Nelly didn't use sinking. In fact Nelly actually does use poise in her boss fight. Speed was half of the big thing with the Edgar butlers, the other half being debuffs. They had an interesting synergy with Hindley of all people who got big boosts from debuffed enemies which I thought was a fun gimmick. Nelly did have poise but it was like, the least interesting part of her kit since she didn't use it for anything. The phase 2 part was all about debuffs again which Ryoshu has none of other than one hit of Bind(which is good mind you, bind owns) Anyway again she's not bad or anything so I'm not really up in arms about this just kinda confused
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Apr 15, 2024 17:34
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I wish Ryoshu had a secondary status effect like Bleed or Sinking. As-is, she's probably best used on the Poise team for that support passive of hers, since even if that easy to get attack weight on her S2 is great she's almost certainly not gonna be better than Cinqlair and she doesn't have the utility to outshine Captain Ish. As for replacing one of the BL units, Kim is the core of the team, Yi Sang is the best clasher in the game, Don's invaluable for generating poise and Faust...hrm. She might actually be better than Faust if she's got good numbers, since Faust is a bit of a weak link in the team... If we get 7 man teams in MD4 she'd be an easy slot in, though.
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Apr 15, 2024 17:57
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GilliamYaeger posted:I wish Ryoshu had a secondary status effect like Bleed or Sinking. As-is, she's probably best used on the Poise team for that support passive of hers, since even if that easy to get attack weight on her S2 is great she's almost certainly not gonna be better than Cinqlair and she doesn't have the utility to outshine Captain Ish. As for replacing one of the BL units, Kim is the core of the team, Yi Sang is the best clasher in the game, Don's invaluable for generating poise and Faust...hrm. She might actually be better than Faust if she's got good numbers, since Faust is a bit of a weak link in the team... Outside of her S1 clashing like dogshit Faust doesn't really have downsides with Don and Meur along so there's no real reason not to bring her imo. e: she's also the team's sole Gloom source, I think? I guess Ryoshu could replace Cinq if you don't feel like using him that run. She gets Lust a bit easier which is something in non-MD fights, since that team only gets it from Cinq S3. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 18:30
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Yinlock posted:Ishmael is never going to be benched on the Sinking team. Small problem with that: She already is! Wuthering Faust is strictly better on the team proper at this point (whether you're in MD or not), and depending on the numbers this new version is going to be doing a lot of work. There's so much pure potency application here, and quick building of potency is currently Sinking's biggest gap. I'm the #1 Ishmael Fan ever but I've already long-since stopped using Boatworks on my Sinking setups, and the agreed tactic of the hardcore runners and theorycrafters is (from what I can see with a cursory search around) quite similar. Permanent Echoes of the Manor is a REALLY big deal on hard targets, among other tradeoffs, and you get to bring Fluid Sac. Molar Ishmael does have one big theoretical advantage with her access to a Dodge though. As for all the above discussion of Demian and Enoch, this isn't exactly a new conversation, people have been putting the pieces together here for literally over a year. For as long as we have seen even PREVIEW images of this character people have been pointing out the many, many, many, MANY similarities and direct shared references. They absolutely have some kind of thematic connection at a minimum, and being the same character taking on a new form after passing is not out of the question. It doesn't even damage Enoch's and Lisa's story the way you seem to think it does, and I have no clue where you're getting that from? Having the spirit of the character moving on and leaving behind the heavy weight of his old flesh and life, reincarnated and reborn as something Other, is entirely on track with his whole goddamn shtick! It doesn't diminish the loss of Enoch himself even if it does turn out that Demian is a new incarnation of the same lineage, in fact if anything it just complicates it in interesting and valuable ways.
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Apr 16, 2024 06:43
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Ariamaki posted:Small problem with that: She already is! Wuthering Faust is strictly better on the team proper at this point (whether you're in MD or not), and depending on the numbers this new version is going to be doing a lot of work. There's so much pure potency application here, and quick building of potency is currently Sinking's biggest gap. I'm the #1 Ishmael Fan ever but I've already long-since stopped using Boatworks on my Sinking setups, and the agreed tactic of the hardcore runners and theorycrafters is (from what I can see with a cursory search around) quite similar. Permanent Echoes of the Manor is a REALLY big deal on hard targets, among other tradeoffs, and you get to bring Fluid Sac. Molar Ishmael does have one big theoretical advantage with her access to a Dodge though. I...don't see anyone recommending dropping Molar Ish on this team because that is a ridiculous idea. All the potency in the universe means nothing the second your count runs out and Echoes, while really good, cannot hold Count up on it's own. She also inflicts a shitload of Potency so there's no reason not to use her in any scenario where you want to focus on Sinking. Actually Ishmael + Yi Sang + Rodion + Outis + Faust + Gregor is an easy 6 so who on earth is getting more priority than her? Is it Hong Lu? That guy is more of a damage/discard ID than a sinking one and his optimal gameplan of "reach 3 Insight then go ham with S1/2" can chew through a stack quickly and will actively delay any use of his only Count-positive skill. He's a good ID but if you want to focus hard on Sinking he's the one you drop for Faust. I dunno which theorycrafters are crafting theories about ditching the core member of the Sinking team since season 2 for basically no reason but it does not seem like a good idea, to me. e: I'm guessing they're assuming that Rime Shank will cover everything and assuming EGO use is a free action is where a lot of theorycrafters slip up. I mean it's feasible in MD(and Hong Lu works fine there for Sinking since all his skills inflict it and thus trigger Gifts) but the "MD or not" qualifier is where things get messy Yinlock fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 16:37
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Yinlock posted:I...don't see anyone recommending dropping Molar Ish on this team because that is a ridiculous idea. All the potency in the universe means nothing the second your count runs out and Echoes, while really good, cannot hold Count up on it's own. She also inflicts a shitload of Potency so there's no reason not to use her in any scenario where you want to focus on Sinking. honestly my goto sinking team is probably slot 1 edgreg, slot 2 molar ish, slot 3 butler outis, slot 4 butler faust. Greg is a great count applier which is the big issue and ishmael also goes neutral at worst with passive up. Dieci rodion was one of my first cuts when i put the team together because she eats way too much count and gives none back outside of s3, and rime shank is too expensive to compensate for that. Genuinely think that unless you're spamming guards into s3 she makes the team worse by being there. (no, MD is not an excuse either - even if you have the sin resources, you still have to manage the SP cost of an overclocked teth ego every turn.) Plus molar ish has her incredible 10+4 evade which helps out immensely when in the starting turns to get slots, or just to draw away attacks to focus on stacking sinking on the boss if there are mooks you dont wanna deal with. spicebush may be a faust replacement or 5th slot replacing molar ish's slot 2 on human fights if you want to win quickly since while getting to 50+ potency and indefinite count is very possible it doesn't actually help you kill them faster for as much as it provides a free ride from then on. That said there is no way im running him on abno fights with how awkward he is to use and the fact that there's more than enough burst (ie edgreg s3) to compensate for no deluge. Lord_Magmar posted:I'm pretty sure the backgrounds would be different mirror worlds that Elrking has encountered. Or at least are intended to represent versions of Heathcliff and Catherine's tragedy. Certainly your list fits with many of the shown Heathcliff and Cathy combos from the end. Dongrang Field for Sunshower + Scientist, Boat for Queecliff, school for High School AU, Branch Facility for Abnormality AU. they match up 1:1 with the different worlds in the ending shot- the fields of wheat are from the medival world, not the sunshower one. DuoRogue fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 18:44
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DuoRogue posted:honestly my goto sinking team is probably slot 1 edgreg, slot 2 molar ish, slot 3 butler outis, slot 4 butler faust. Greg is a great count applier which is the big issue and ishmael also goes neutral at worst with passive up. tbf Rime Shank also does a shitton of damage for some reason and it gives so much Count that you don't gotta throw it out every turn unless you're going completely ham on negatives. But yeah Rodion is more hinderance than help if you don't have the resources though she's useful as a brawler since the team isn't exactly sturdy. Spicebush has his moments, mostly exploding those annoying abnos that resist everything. I wish his self-count wasn't so awkward to manage though, I guess i've been spoiled by Regret Faust.
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Apr 16, 2024 19:52
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well, looks like i don't have any teams that can handle bamboo hat kim - my one of almost-entirely-45s is sinking, which he eats alive time to spend the next million years pushing win rate in exp luxcavation
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Apr 16, 2024 20:59
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Goatse James Bond posted:well, looks like i don't have any teams that can handle bamboo hat kim - my one of almost-entirely-45s is sinking, which he eats alive
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Apr 16, 2024 21:07
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Goatse James Bond posted:well, looks like i don't have any teams that can handle bamboo hat kim - my one of almost-entirely-45s is sinking, which he eats alive Kim is really weak to Slash if you've got W Don/Ryoshu hanging around. Anything that clashes well and stops him from starting the snowball works too. If he gets stuffed out he's a joke, if he doesn't he eats you alive. e: also he's built for 40 instead of 45 which helps a bit Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 16, 2024 21:42
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Goatse James Bond posted:well, looks like i don't have any teams that can handle bamboo hat kim - my one of almost-entirely-45s is sinking, which he eats alive Bamboo Hat Kim is a negative-coin enemy, meaning they want to be in the -SP count. Their Clash attacks start at 12 or 16, and go down for each positive coin. In fact, Bamboo hat Kim GAINS SP for every clash they lose.
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Apr 17, 2024 02:21
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DropTheAnvil posted:Bamboo Hat Kim is a negative-coin enemy, meaning they want to be in the -SP count. .......yes? which is why he eats sinking alive. (or at least, allegedly does- i've beaten him with sinking before)
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Apr 17, 2024 02:23
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DuoRogue posted:.......yes? which is why he eats sinking alive. (or at least, allegedly does- i've beaten him with sinking before) Maybe i misunderstood, was just trying to explain why he was eating sinking team alive.
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Apr 17, 2024 03:19
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DuoRogue posted:.......yes? which is why he eats sinking alive. (or at least, allegedly does- i've beaten him with sinking before) I guess it depends on what Sinking team you're running, their direct offense can be kinda anemic vs SP enemies without the dieci crew and Kim is made to punish you for dallying
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Apr 17, 2024 15:50
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KobunFan posted:Given that a Color needed to step in to stop the onslaught, I doubt the crew would be alive. I mean, the Wild Hunt is mostly just a lot of enemy of level 45. In theory, with Fluid Sac and other healing EGO, you could just weather it out but it would be terribly long. Having Vergilius come and get the kid out of the basement just help move the plot forward and bring some other element of relationship building between the Sinner and their guide. If we consider that good management of ressource and that the Pequod Crew is really tighknit, they could potentially deal with the Wild Hunt, if the boat doesn't sink from the amount of people that is suddenly on it during a Waves.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:33
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L.U.I.G.I posted:I mean, the Wild Hunt is mostly just a lot of enemy of level 45. In theory, with Fluid Sac and other healing EGO, you could just weather it out but it would be terribly long. Having Vergilius come and get the kid out of the basement just help move the plot forward and bring some other element of relationship building between the Sinner and their guide.
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Apr 17, 2024 19:34
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GilliamYaeger posted:As you kill enemies, the reinforcements become stronger and stronger. Eventually they get buffed to the point where you just cannot win clashes.
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Apr 17, 2024 20:33
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GilliamYaeger posted:As you kill enemies, the reinforcements become stronger and stronger. Eventually they get buffed to the point where you just cannot win clashes. So now we know that Erlking Heath's true power is the power of Smash Bros.
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Apr 17, 2024 21:22
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Oh, I just realized what was fully going on with Cathy deleting herself across the mirrorverse. She's not really trying to give the other Heathcliffs happier lives at all, although I think she'd be satisfied with that outcome. It's her pulling back from considering all the mirror worlds as a whole and getting overwhelmed and focusing on a specific problem in front of her, which is the whole loving mirror mess she created threatening LCB Heathcliff. Clearing all Cathies is her way of solving that in a rather permanent manner. That's why she's like 'yeah I don't love all Heathcliffs I love my Heathcliff' and why Demian gives a talk that basically boils down to focus on what you can because trying to fix problems for every person or in every world gets to be too much. I mean, that was all pretty obvious when I played through the end of Canto 6, but it explains why Cathy is willing to gently caress up every other Cathy even if she can't know what possibilities there are, because she doesn't really give a gently caress about that in the moment.
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Apr 17, 2024 23:17
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okay yeah, cinq don and digging through my pockets for slash id did the trick on to heathclanto e: even without most of the rest of his posse BL Meursault did pretty good work Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Apr 17, 2024 |
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Apr 17, 2024 23:28
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Yeah, BL Meursault is frankly a ridiculous ID and finally broke his curse of his identities being rather subpar.
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Apr 18, 2024 01:33
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Kimsault exists for the sole purpose of making you mad that you have an ID that just can't loving lose a clash
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Apr 18, 2024 01:51
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Onehandclapping posted:Kimsault exists for the sole purpose of making you mad that you have an ID that just can't loving lose a clash i have never felt so called out by a post on the internet
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Apr 18, 2024 02:38
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