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Robin Hood and Little John walking through the forest Scooping up the field mice and bopping them on the head Was Will Gamwell/Scarlett walking along wearing fine clothing, or was he dressed like this all the time?  Robin is wearing Lincoln green, there.
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Aug 14, 2020 03:58
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i know i'm factually incorrect but i amuse myself imagining the name Gamwell indicates he's got fine legs. good ol billy hotlegs. william sexy-ankles. billy fillhose
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Aug 14, 2020 04:17
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The Adventure with Midge the Miller's Son Midge (or Much, or Moche) the Miller's Son is one of the oldest members of the Merry Men, featured in the earliest ballads ("A Gest of Robyn Hode", "Robin Hood and the Monk" and "Robin Hood and Guy of Gisborne") right alongside Little John. He's always a relatively minor character, though, to the extent that it's not even really clear if he's Midge, the son of the Miller, or the son of Midge the Miller. He doesn't (as far as I've been able to find) have a separate origin or "joining the band" story in the ballads, so Pyle gives him one here. First though, we're gonna pad this out with some hearty fare and some manly songs: quote:WHEN THE four yeomen had traveled for a long time toward Sherwood again, high noontide being past, they began to wax hungry. Quoth Robin Hood, "I would that I had somewhat to eat. Methinks a good loaf of white bread, with a piece of snow-white cheese, washed down with a draught of humming ale, were a feast for a king." I searched local british cheeses for Lincoln, Sherwood, and Nottingham, and found this:  quote:Traditional Lincolnshire Poacher is available in a cylindrical shape, coated by a rind appearing similar to granite. It is a slow-maturing cheese that takes between 12-24 months to develop a golden, straw-coloured yellow pate and spotted brown and grey colour rind. One gets daily and seasonal variation in terms of both flavour and texture but all-in-all the cheese has both cheddar and gruyere-like qualities. It has a smooth texture and a strong taste. In summer, notes of pineapple, toasted nuts and grassy dominate the flavour profile while in winter the taste becomes savoury and almost meaty. Lincolnshire Poacher pairs well with full-bodied reds and whites and beer. quote:At last Will Scarlet looked at a small piece of bread he still held in his hand, and quoth he, "Methinks I will give this to the sparrows." So, throwing it from him, he brushed the crumbs from his jerkin. It's hard to search this song, because most of the google hits are for versions of this book. I did find that "Merry Blossom Time" with these lyrics was published as sheet music by Arthur Bird, but as far as I can tell that sheet music was published in 1896, well after Pyle; . And I can't seem to find an actual copy of the sheet music in question, just references to it. Another copyright entry under the same title is credited to Anna Risher in the 1920's. So this may be a traditional song, or it may be Pyle's; it seems a little sophisticated for a traditional song, but as a slightly fancy song it's well-suited to our Will. quote:"I know not," quoth Arthur, smiling, with his head on one side, like a budding lass that is asked to dance, "I know not that I can match our sweet friend's song; moreover, I do verily think that I have caught a cold and have a certain tickling and huskiness in the windpipe." I actually found a Jstor article that mentions this one, and appears to confirm that it's Pyle's own writing (though I can't access the full article); it seems like Pyle may have written a lot of the songs in this book originally as independent poetry submissions for Harper's. This song is, of course, a version of the "loathly dame" story featured in Child Ballad 32, "King Henry", and that Chaucer drew on for The Wife of Bath's Tale. quote:"Nay," said Little John, "I have none as fair as that merry Arthur has trolled. They are all poor things that I know. Moreover, my voice is not in tune today, and I would not spoil even a tolerable song by ill singing." The phrase "Hey nonny nonny" is of course from Shakespeare and many other places, essentially the elizabethan equivalent of "doo wah diddy". Little John's song is simpler than the other two, and filled with a lot of trite and conventional images ("cock doth crow" etc) ; maybe it was a fragment Pyle didn't feel like finishing? Maybe Robin didn't want to listen to the rest of the song? quote:Little John looked whither Robin Hood pointed. "Truly," quoth he, after a time, "I think yon fellow is a certain young miller I have seen now and then around the edge of Sherwood; a poor wight, methinks, to spoil a good song about." Here he goes again! But I like how Robin is emerging as a consistent character: sly, jesting, kind, averse to shedding blood yet no coward, but always getting himself in over his head through overconfidence. quote:"Hold, friend!" cried Robin to the Miller; whereupon he turned slowly, with the weight of the bag upon his shoulder, and looked at each in turn all bewildered, for though a good stout man his wits did not skip like roasting chestnuts. As far as I can tell this bit with the flour is Pyle's invention -- it doesn't seem to be in a ballad, but could have been in a play or other source. [ EDIT: it's from "Robin Hood and the Beggar," Child Ballad 134, which we'll talk about in more depth later]. Up till now, nobody believing he was actually Robin has always been helpful; now it turns around and bites him. quote:Now it chanced that Will Stutely and a party of Robin's men were in the glade not far from where this merry sport was going forward. Hearing the hubbub of voices, and blows that sounded like the noise of a flail in the barn in wintertime, they stopped, listening and wondering what was toward. Quoth Will Stutely, "Now if I mistake not there is some stout battle with cudgels going forward not far hence. I would fain see this pretty sight." So saying, he and the whole party turned their steps whence the noise came. When they had come near where all the tumult sounded they heard the three blasts of Robin's bugle horn. Robin enjoys a good jest as much when he's the butt of it as any other time. So Midge joins up -- another honest tradesman corrupted, and another "big dude gets called Tiny" joke name -- and we've almost gotten the whole band back together. And Little John's character is emerging consistently too -- Big, loyal, not exactly careful. Next up: we're still missing two essential members of the band. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Sep 2, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 15:40
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Unfortunately the British cheeses of today are nothing like what was available in the era of Robin Hood. Cheese used to be made by every farm that had dairy animals, as a way of preserving the nutrients of fresh milk. There were thousands of cheesemakers and the variety of styles far surpassed what's available today, which is almost entirely wheels of firm, low-moisture varieties along the lines of Cheddar. The Industrial Revolution began the decline in quantity, but it was the creation of the Milk Marketing Board in the 1930's, which guaranteed farmers a good price for their milk and arranged for it to be collected from their farm that really killed farmhouse cheeses. Before the First World War there were over 3,500 farmhouse cheese-makers in the UK. By the end of the Second World War, barely 100 were still making cheese. The vast majority of what exists today is factory cheeses that are virtually indistinguishable from each other. The last 30 years have seen a renaissance in farmhouse production but it's still a tiny fragment of the total amount of British cheese produced. Lincolnshire Poacher has only existed since the 1990s.
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Aug 14, 2020 16:56
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Well, I know what I'm having for lunch.
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Aug 14, 2020 17:17
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When I think bread and cheese, I always think a soft brie.
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Aug 14, 2020 17:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Midge (or Much, or Moche) the Miller's Son 
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Aug 14, 2020 21:10
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:When I think bread and cheese, I always think a soft brie. There are still many examples in France of farmstead cheeses, known as tommes. These cheeses are small, may weigh as much as a few pounds, with a rustic rind and medium moisture. The texture can be dense or lacy. Here's an example of what one looks like, but they can vary in shape from squashed spheres to flat, short cylinders.  Higher moisture, surface ripened cheeses similar to brie are also typical farmstead styles, although you had a better chance of getting sick from lysteriosis with these. 
Wilbur Swain fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 00:30
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Wilbur Swain posted:
Google tells me that's only a concern for people with "weakened immune systems", so it's all good, right? A note on pacing: I'm trying to do a dive post per day but I may fall behind. If people are ahead or behind please don't feel limited to only comment on the current section -- I'd rather have people talking than feeling they need to catch up or wait on others. 
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Aug 15, 2020 04:50
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Google tells me that's only a concern for people with "weakened immune systems", so it's all good, right? Yes, and your chance of contracting it now from cheese is far, far less than in olden times, which is why I worded that in the past tense. Besides higher sanitary standards, any cheese sold in the US that's above a certain moisture content must be made of pasteurized milk. You have nothing to worry about.
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Aug 15, 2020 05:01
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IIRC, a lot of cheese made in the medieval period would have been hard skimmed milk cheeses (the most famous modern cheese of this type is Parmesan), particularly at the lower end of the economic scale.
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Aug 15, 2020 11:22
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Cobalt-60 posted:What exactly does Little John do in the Sheriff's service? Since the historical Sheriff was an extortionate jerk, I'd think any principled man would avoid working for him; let alone one who's supposed to be on the other side. And what was Robin's response? Did Little John run into some of his old colleagues at the blue Boar and they go "Man, WTF?" The Sherrif is recruiting John to be part of his retinue. Every aristocrat had a crew of flunkies, thugs, and henchmen on retainer to carry out various acts of gooning for him. In a time of war (or local political dispute getting out of hand) that would be fighting but retinue guys also might be assigned to oversee various tasks and jobs as needed by the lord they served. Many English kings had a bodyguard of archers who would sometimes be given other administrative offices and roles. As a result of the Hundred Years War, retinue service became increasingly professionalized and almost entirely based on formal contracts of service. A lot of HYW stuff creeps into the Robin Hood legend over time because the 14th/15th centuries are really where this whole English longbow mythology is developed. This is also when you get the image of a big crew of skilled archers hanging out in the woods robbing people and doing crimes, they're demobilized soldiers who are stuck without permanent roles as retainers, or who either didn't want to or didn't find work as garrison troops or foreign mercenary work in between English field campaigns in France. Only instead of being a jolly and kind assortment of Stout English Lads, running into a company of former military archers out in the woods who wanted to rob you was a much more violent and terrifying experience.
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Aug 15, 2020 15:31
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The next few sections are going to combine two major ballads, "Robin Hood and Alan a Dale" (Child Ballad 138), and "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar" (Child Ballad 123). Of the two, "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar" is far older, while "Robin Hood and Alan a Dale" is relatively modern, dating to the 17th century. Despite the obvious synergy (you'll see why when we get to it), Pyle was the first to link these two ballads into one unified story. Robin Hood and Allan-a-Dale This is one of the latest additions to the Robin Hood corpus. The 17th century saw a profusion of Robin Hood stories but most of them (Robin marrying Clothinda Queen of the Shepherdesses; Robin going to sea with the navy; Robin defending London from Turkish giants; etc) haven't "stuck" and become part of the recurring legendarium; this one has.   quote:IT HAS just been told how three unlucky adventures fell upon Robin Hood and Little John all in one day bringing them sore ribs and aching bones. So next we will tell how they made up for those ill happenings by a good action that came about not without some small pain to Robin. They haven't really robbed anyone lately, have they? Not since the Sheriff! One parallel here that gets discussed in a lot of the scholarship is that in the various King Arthur tales and ballads, there's a recurring convention that Arthur will not sit down to eat without a guest or an adventure of some kind happening first. Similarly, a lot of the Robin Hood stories open with Robin sending his men out to find a "guest" for dinner -- that is, a potential victim -- so there's a kind of parallelism here and a kind of inversion, Robin's seat under the Greenwood Tree mirroring and inverting Arthur's seat at Camelot. In this particular case, though, that's a parallel being added by Pyle, not present in the specific source ballad (Child 138). quote:So, having chosen four more stout fellows, Will Stutely and his band set forth to Fosse Way, to find whether they might not come across some rich guest to feast that day in Sherwood with Robin and his band. Man, some days you go fishing and you waste all day just sitting in the grass eating and drinking and taking naps, and you don't even catch anything. What's that about a bad day robbing being better than a good day peasanting quote:
Everything up to this point has been Pyle's addition to the ballad, which just opens with Robin seeing Alan happy one day, then sad the next, then Robin sends out Little John and Midge (under the name "Nick the Miller's Son") to bring Alan around. I like how Pyle develops the personalities of the minor characters from tale to tale. Stutely is a little more cautious than he used to be, not hard to figure out why. It's a good thing Scarlett is here -- as a fancy man himself, he understands these sensitive types. (In one early version,found in one of the Sloane manuscripts, the main character in this story was not Alan, but Will Scarlock). quote:The youth did as he was bidden and, with bowed head and sorrowful step, accompanied the others, walking beside Will Scarlet. So they wended their way through the forest. The bright light faded from the sky and a glimmering gray fell over all things. From the deeper recesses of the forest the strange whispering sounds of night-time came to the ear; all else was silent, saving only for the rattling of their footsteps amid the crisp, dry leaves of the last winter. At last a ruddy glow shone before them here and there through the trees; a little farther and they came to the open glade, now bathed in the pale moonlight. In the center of the open crackled a great fire, throwing a red glow on all around. At the fire were roasting juicy steaks of venison, pheasants, capons, and fresh fish from the river. All the air was filled with the sweet smell of good things cooking. I like the interplay here between the rough Merry Men all teasing and laughing at the kid, but kind Robin, like Scarlet, he understands these sensitive types too. For all his slyness, Robin's leadership isn't first in his head, it's in his heart. That said, how old is Robin now? He can't be that much older than Alan! quote:"Methinks thou art overyoung to be perplexed with trouble," quoth Robin kindly; then, turning to the others, he cried, "Come, lads, busk ye and get our feast ready; only thou, Will Scarlet, and thou, Little John, stay here with me." And that's why Disney made Little John a Bear! He's adorable when he's angry. Saint Francis was canonized in 1228, so he's actually not that anachronistic at all. The important think in this passage though is social class. Ellen's father is a "Franklin", which isn't a title or rank, it just means that he is not a serf -- as low as you can get in the social order without being property. Robin and his band, as "Yoemen," are all of higher social class than a mere "franklin". "Sir Stephen of Trent," by contrast, is at least a landed knight, and may even be higher nobility, because Trent is a village and parish, so holding Trent in fief would make him a fairly major landholder. quote:Then up spoke Will Scarlet. "Methinks it seemeth but ill done of the lass that she should so quickly change at others' bidding, more especially when it cometh to the marrying of a man as old as this same Sir Stephen. I like it not in her, Allan." Thanks for saying it, Will, we were all thinking it quote:
Way to show some fire, Allan. Good for you. quote:
Sly Robin has a plan! In the ballad, this is a flat exchange rather than Robin doing a favor -- quote:
Pyle's Robin just helps because helping is his nature. The "Banns" are the Banns of Marriage, the ancestor of the "speak now or forever hold your peace" bit you've seen in romcoms. The idea was, you announce the marriage in advance, then at the wedding, people have a chance to show up and say things like "he's already married to me!" or "they don't know it, but they're half-siblings!" or whatever else. Remember this is a society where divorce is almost impossible, so it's really important that you get it right in advance -- no takebacks! "Pope Joan" is a pseudo-historical and legendary female pope who supposedly disguised herself as a man, rose through the church hierarchy, and became Pope due to her skills and merits, only to be discovered as female when she gave birth and subsequently expunged from the historical record. . Importantly, for much of the middle ages, the legend was thought to be historical and true, even by Catholics, and was widely believed for centuries. quote:"But," quoth Robin, "Fountain Abbey is a good hundred miles from here. An we would help this lad, we have no time to go thither and back before his true love will be married. Nought is to be gained there, coz." This is where Pyle starts to interweave our second ballad, "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar." The traditional ballad refers to Fountain Abbey, which is eighty miles to the north of Sherwood -- almost a two hour drive today. And it's in the title, so Pyle can't just elide it. So he invents a smaller, more local fountain to be the Friar's hermitage. What the gently caress does "curtal" mean? "curtal" means "brief", "cut short", or "docked"; "docked" can also mean "punished" or "censured" in an ecclesiastical context, so there may be a pun there indicating he's been punished for something. Checking the scholarship, though, quote:The term curtal has raised discussion. Most feel it refers to a shorter gown, worn for mobility: friars were associated with travel among the ordinary people, which was both a source of corruption and also, as in the Robin Hood tradition, popular acceptability. A "tucked friar" is another way of expressing this https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/robin-hood-and-the-curtal-friar Before we leave good Allan for the moment, though -- now we have a professional minstrel, you didn't think we were getting out of here without a song, did you? quote:
This song appears to be Pyle's riff on the Swan maiden legend; Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake had premiered at the Bolshoi Ballet just a few years previously, in 1877, although from what I can tell it did not tour in America prior to Pyle's publication of this book. And it's a perfect choice for Alan to sing to the band, too; up till now, we've heard lots of jolly songs, but Alan is a professional: he picks a song that's on topic (weddings) and a song of deep lore and magic. And of course Alan joins the band. And now Robin is even more like a Lord of the Forest than he was before; he's forming a court, complete with a professional minstrel. Next time: Robin gets religion! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 16:41
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Jo Joestar posted:IIRC, a lot of cheese made in the medieval period would have been hard skimmed milk cheeses (the most famous modern cheese of this type is Parmesan), particularly at the lower end of the economic scale. Many medieval cheeses are still being made to this day and are immensely popular household names. Most of these are French and Italian. They are whole milk or part-skim. Parmigiano Reggiano is a blend of whole and skim milk, and dates back to this period.
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Aug 15, 2020 17:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Robin defending London from Turkish giants This I must know more about.
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Aug 16, 2020 02:21
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Cobalt-60 posted:This I must know more about. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_and_the_Prince_of_Aragon It's a child ballad! I'm pretty sure there are early King Arthur tales with virtually the same plot, though I can't remember the title. Come to think of it, Gawaine and Will Scarlett are even somewhat parallel characters (the Lord's nephew, known for fantastic strength) although that's a bit of a stretch since Gawaine and Scarlett are generally presented as fairly different personalities. edit: here's the text https://d.lib.rochester.edu/robin-hood/text/child-ballad-129-robin-hood-and-the-prince-of-aragon Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 16, 2020 02:37
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The more I read this book, the more I realize its a predecessor to the foundational fantasy fiction of my childhood, Tolkien and Jacques, and for that reason has an extremely powerful resonance with me (also the Disney movie which I now want to re-watch). The earlier talk linking both The Hobbit and Redwall to Pyle's Robin Hood make and more sense the further I read; they're fun and wholesome in a way that, for example, Abercrombie isn't. I mean, really, I can say without hyperbole that I'm in love.
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Aug 17, 2020 02:57
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Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar The source ballad here is "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar," Child Ballad 123. Here's a performance of the ballad: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF4S8GV3ZYY   quote:THE STOUT YEOMEN of Sherwood Forest were ever early risers of a morn, more especially when the summertime had come, for then in the freshness of the dawn the dew was always the brightest, and the song of the small birds the sweetest. quote:This ballad appears in the Percy folio manuscript but more than half has been torn away. It also appears, in a slightly expanded form, in a number of seventeenth-century versions, and what appears to be the earliest of these, from the garland of 1663, is used here to fill out the gaps. Lines 1-4, 35-67, 109-43 are from the Percy folio, while the garland text provides the remainder, with the insertion of one stanza from the garland at lines 125-28 where the Percy folio appears to have lost a few lines by scribal error; the two versions fit together well, with the change of one rhyme word needed at line 68. https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/robin-hood-and-the-curtal-friar-introduction Since the opening section of this ballad is missing, we don't really know what the traditional opening was, but Pyle does a good substitution here, getting all the parts of the story that need to be there set down. The ballad opens with Robin giving the caution to come if he sounds his horn, so from here on out, all ballad. quote:Robin had walked no farther than where the bend of the road hid his good men from his view, when he stopped suddenly, for he thought that he heard voices. He stood still and listened, and presently heard words passed back and forth betwixt what seemed to be two men, and yet the two voices were wondrously alike. The sound came from over behind the bank, that here was steep and high, dropping from the edge of the road a half a score of feet to the sedgy verge of the river. This friar knows how to live: pasty, malmsey, sweet riverbank. The exchange that our friar has with himself isn't in the ballad at all, but may have been in some of the play sources; regardless, it sets up what's coming next -- not just a song but a duet! (which is, of course, all Pyle's writing as best I can tell). quote:Having gotten his breath from his last draught, the Friar began talking again in this wise: "Now, sweet lad, canst thou not sing me a song? La, I know not, I am but in an ill voice this day; prythee ask me not; dost thou not hear how I croak like a frog? Nay, nay, thy voice is as sweet as any bullfinch; come, sing, I prythee, I would rather hear thee sing than eat a fair feast. Alas, I would fain not sing before one that can pipe so well and hath heard so many goodly songs and ballads, ne'ertheless, an thou wilt have it so, I will do my best. But now methinks that thou and I might sing some fair song together; dost thou not know a certain dainty little catch called 'The Loving Youth and the Scornful Maid'? Why, truly, methinks I have heard it ere now. Then dost thou not think that thou couldst take the lass's part if I take the lad's? I know not but I will try; begin thou with the lad and I will follow with the lass." Friar knows what's important: he doesn't draw his sword until the song is finished! On the other hand, his first reaction on meeting a stranger is to draw down. Yeah, this guy will fit right in. quote:"Nay, put up thy pinking iron, friend," quoth Robin, standing up with the tears of laughter still on his cheeks. "Folk who have sung so sweetly together should not fight thereafter." Hereupon he leaped down the bank to where the other stood. "I tell thee, friend," said he, "my throat is as parched with that song as e'er a barley stubble in October. Hast thou haply any Malmsey left in that stout pottle?" This little exchange is all Pyle; the same "dude doesn't recognize the dude we all know is the dude" joke that never gets old, classic dramatic irony. I like how our goodly Friar doesn't lie. And speaking of dramatic irony, now is probably a good time to talk about the various Robin Hood "May Games" plays that are the other major source of Robin Hood stories. quote:Tuck [,like] Marian only ha[s]one major appearance in any Robin Hood ballad, although there is a passing reference in a couple of others. But while Tuck and Marian didn't appear in the surviving early ballads, they were characters in the 15th - 17th century village festivals ("May Games") that often featured a Robin Hood play. Tuck's first appearance as a fighting member of Robin's band comes from a dramatic fragment from 1475, but there he is just another outlaw. An earlier version of this story is also a May Game play, printed in 1560 alongside another play adapting an older ballad about Robin Hood and the Potter. At the end of that play, Robin offers Tuck a woman as incentive to join the Merry Men -- although unnamed, many scholars have assumed that woman was meant to be Marian. She was sometimes pictured as the friar's dancing partner. https://www.boldoutlaw.com/rhbal/bal123.html quote:"I do wish much," quoth Robin, looking thoughtfully at the stout priest, "to cross yon ford and strive to find this same good Friar." Saint Christopher was the patron saint of travellers, famous for carrying the Christ child across a river; much like Robin, he's generally viewed now as apocryphal and legendary, without historical reality. Still, this Friar is sly! What's he planning? quote:Having come to the ford, he girded up his robes about his loins, tucked his good broadsword beneath his arm, and stooped his back to take Robin upon it. Suddenly he straightened up. "Methinks," quoth he, "thou'lt get thy weapon wet. Let me tuck it beneath mine arm along with mine own." I can't find a record of Saint Godric's natal day, but if Tuck was referring to his saint's day of remembrance, that puts the action here on May 21st. The Friar may've taken in Robin once, but Robin's sly enough to get his own back, right? quote:So Robin took his sword again and buckled it at his side; then he bent his stout back and took the Friar upon it. Now might be a good time to watch this re-enactment of the Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar folk play. It's easy to see why this was a hit in the 1400's: two huge dudes carrying each other back and forth, one of them pulls the other one's pants down, then the one who's pants fell down throws the first one into a river, then you get a cool swordfight! EDIT: a "slashed doublet" doesn't mean a doublet that's been stabbed. quote:The Victoria and Albert Museum in London defines slashing as: “a decorative technique that made regular, spaced cuts into the fabric of a garment, hat or shoe.” . . . “The decorative technique known as slashing involved making small cuts in the outer fabric of a garment so as to reveal the inner lining. As with dagging, slashing was performed on all variety of garments, from men’s doublets, a padded over-shirt, and breeches to women’s gowns and even to shoes.” (452-53) Expensive garments would have multiple layers of different fabrics and the top layers would be "slashed" systematically to show the fancy cloth beneath. Like ripped jeans, but much more upscale, because you're showing off that you can afford fancy layered clothes. quote:"Thou needst not hasten thyself unduly," quoth the stout Friar. "Fear not; I will abide here, and if thou dost not cry 'Alack-a-day' ere long time is gone, may I never more peep through the brake at a fallow deer." Oh poo poo, this Friar even has a counter-play for the horn gambit? Has sly Robin finally been outfoxed? quote:"With all my heart," quoth Robin, "so, here goes for one." So saying, he raised his silver horn to his lips and blew thrice upon it, clear and high. The exchange with the dogs and the archers is a little bloodier in the ballad, but no dogs are gonna die in the land of Fancy. The bit with the dogs catching arrows in their mouths is in the ballad text, though, and may have an older origin: quote:If that suggests considerable antiquity it is also worth noting that the theme of the dogs that could match fighting men also seems to have quite ancient roots; the story is reminiscent of the encounter between Arthur's men and the ferocious ravens belonging to Owein in the medieval Welsh story Breuddwyd Ronabwy, "The Dream of Rhonabwy," found in the Mabinogion collection. https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/robin-hood-and-the-curtal-friar-introduction But really, why are we fighting, when we're all such good buds? You know someone's a bud when your dog likes them. quote:"Truly, most holy father," said Little John, "I am more thankful than e'er I was in all my life before that our good friend Scarlet knew thee and thy dogs. I tell thee seriously that I felt my heart crumble away from me when I saw my shaft so miss its aim, and those great beasts of thine coming straight at me." And now that we've met him properly, there's one particularly neat thing about Friar Tuck: he is one of the few members of the Merry Men for whom there is a reasonably clear, documented historical candidate. quote:Twice in 1417, royal writs demand the arrest of an outlaw who led a band which robbed, murdered and committed other acts of general mayhem. One report says he "assumed the name of Frere Tuk newly so called in the common parlance." As Holt explains "the men who drafted the writs of 1417 had apparently never heard the name Friar Tuck before." A letter in 1429 says Tuck is still at large, and mentions his real identity -- Robert Stafford, chaplain of Lindfield, Sussex. So we know there was, in fact, a specific, ordained priest who did in fact turn outlaw under the name Friar Tuck some forty-five years before any other surviving recorded use of the name "Friar Tuck." It's of course possible that the goodly Reverend Stafford assumed said name because the legend was already growing -- but it's also quite possible that a fat, happy, outlawed yoeman friar got himself added to the legend. And with that, we have the whole band together. From here on out, no more recruitment: all shenanigans. Speaking of, wasn't there a wedding to get to? Let's not be late! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 15:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
Reverend Stafford picking the name based on the growing popularity of the ballad makes sense to me. I remember reading one time about an archer enlisted in the garrison of I think the Isle of Man in the late 1300s who was recorded as "Robin Hood" in the garrison payroll. An archer being cheeky or a former criminal picking the most obvious fake pseudonym in England? We'll never know, sadly.
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Aug 17, 2020 17:06
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Grenrow posted:Reverend Stafford picking the name based on the growing popularity of the ballad makes sense to me. I remember reading one time about an archer enlisted in the garrison of I think the Isle of Man in the late 1300s who was recorded as "Robin Hood" in the garrison payroll. An archer being cheeky or a former criminal picking the most obvious fake pseudonym in England? We'll never know, sadly. Yup! The J.C. holt book has extensive discussion of all the various Robyn Hods in period court records ( some authors *really* like that bowman, but he doesn't fit because we know from a line in Piers Plowman, published in 1370, that "Rymes of Robyn Hode" were already widely current then). I'll cover all that later in a separate post -- it seems appropriate to cover historical Robin at the end. The short version is that it's sortof the opposite of the King Arthur problem. With King Arthur, as I went over in my old thread on all that, the problem is there's an Arthur shaped hole in history somewhere between 500 and 600AD or so, and lots of ways to fill it. With historical Robin, there's fifty different candidates from different historical periods all contributing to the legend in different ways and none of them really fit 100%. So it's still an interesting dive but in a different way. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Aug 17, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 17:11
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"Tuck" is the English word for the French estoc, which was a thrusting sword used throughout the ballad era. Therefore, in order to maintain the allusion to his proficiency with the sword, I move to rename this character "Abbot Stabbot".
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Aug 17, 2020 18:09
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Siivola posted:"Abbot Stabbot". 
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Aug 17, 2020 19:40
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It is sort of odd that he was peacefully eating lunch, while armed an armored. Then again, this setting has established there are a number of thieves who love to pick on clergymen... I wonder if a more "historical" Robin Hood would make him a Knight Templar (or other martial order), since the Crusades come up. And a reason for why he's alone (hardly living the eremitic life, though).
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Aug 17, 2020 19:57
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I'm hoarse from reading Robin Hood and Will Scarlet to my girlfriend last night and deciding, on a whim, to give Robin Hood a high, shrill voice.
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Aug 18, 2020 12:58
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Jack B Nimble posted:I'm hoarse from reading Robin Hood and Will Scarlet to my girlfriend last night and deciding, on a whim, to give Robin Hood a high, shrill voice. Books are dangerous!
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Aug 18, 2020 22:43
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Robin Hood Compasses a Marriage And now we're back in "Robin Hood and Allan a Dale," Child Ballad 138. Audio of the ballad here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mtsSvJiOFZg ; text is here: https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/child/ch138.htm quote:It's a relatively late ballad -- first appearing in the late 17th century, but the story of Robin helping a troubled lover isn't quite as new. In a prose Life of Robin Hood contained in the Sloane manuscript (circa 1600), Robin Hood saves Will Scarlock's (Scarlet's) lover from a loveless marriage. Will Scarlet in later tellings also dresses in red and is something of a dandy. Allen is not present in the 1938 film starring Errol Flynn, but Will Scarlet appears as a minstrel. Nearly every time Allen or Alan appears in modern tales, he is a minstrel -- sometimes the narrator of the legend. A similar tale called Robin Hood and the Bride exists in the Forresters manuscript (a ballad collection from about 1670, not discovered until 1993), although in that tale the lovers are unnamed. https://www.boldoutlaw.com/rhbal/bal138.html quote:AND NOW had come the morning when fair Ellen was to be married, and on which merry Robin had sworn that Allan a Dale should, as it were, eat out of the platter that had been filled for Sir Stephen of Trent. Up rose Robin Hood, blithe and gay, up rose his merry men one and all, and up rose last of all stout Friar Tuck, winking the smart of sleep from out his eyes. Then, while the air seemed to brim over with the song of many birds, all blended together and all joying in the misty morn, each man raved face and hands in the leaping brook, and so the day began. This is all Pyle's invention; Tuck isn't even in the original ballad. Pyle's developing all the characters of the band, weaving them all together. quote:
Specifically setting this in the Priory of Emmet is setting up a villain for some events in later chapters. Here is the church in Papplewick, Nottingham, which according to local legend was the site of the wedding:  And the interior:  quote:
This three-part "what do you see" structure is classic padding but Pyle's taking it right out of the ballad and folk tale tradition -- think Led Zeppellin's Gallows Pole, which for our purposes we can call "Child Ballad 95". quote:
Friar Tuck takes point. I like how he takes the key and takes control before bothering to talk his way in. quote:
The Bishop of Hereford is one of the major Robin Hood villains in the Gest and will be a major figure for most of the rest of the book. The source ballad just uses a generic un-named Bishop here, but making it specifically the Bishop of Hereford helps Pyle set up a recurring villain for later conflicts. There's a lot to be said about the attitude of the Robin Hood ballads to the Catholic Church. Most of the "rich" that Robin preys upon are actually church landholders; even today, the modern Church of England still owns roughly .5% of England's real estate, or roughly 70,000 acres. . In earlier eras, that was dramatically more; in 1873, the Church of England owned approximately two million acres of "glebe land," that is, land that was rented to tenants to support a local priest, and even that was just the remnants after Henry VIII took approximately four million acres from the Church in 1534 when he went Protestant. So back in the day the Church would have held as much as six to eight million acres of land -- out of a total 32 million or so acres total land in all of England. So it may help to think of the established priests in these stories as major, major landlords. Friar Tuck, as a wandering priest with no set abode or "official" parish, is outside that landlord hierarchy -- "one of the good ones." At the time the tales are set, England was of course still Catholic, and many of the ballads feature Robin as a devout Catholic, regularly invoking the Virgin Mary, praying, etc., and just opposing corrupt church officials. Later on though, after England leaves the Catholic Church in the 1500's, anti-Catholicism generally becomes more and more of a theme. quote:So the holy men came to the church; the Bishop and the Prior jesting and laughing between themselves about certain fair dames, their words more befitting the lips of laymen, methinks, than holy clerks. Then they dismounted, and the Bishop, looking around, presently caught sight of Robin standing in the doorway. "Hilloa, good fellow," quoth he in a jovial voice, "who art thou that struttest in such gay feathers?" Again, Robin almost never lies outright. If he didn't tell them who he was, that wouldn't be nearly as fun, would it? quote:
quote:
 Steppin' I love this illustration just for the dramatic staging: Robin in his pimp outfit, Sir Stephen looking stern, Ellen pushed aside, the Bishop fat and pompous. quote:
Sir Stephen is, when all is said and done, a knight, no coward. Just caught at the wrong time. quote:
Shock and Awe! The Audacity! quote:
Class snob. Good riddance, Ellen. You can do better. OTOH it probably would have been an improvement to allow Ellen to at some point say a few words of her own. But, y'know, 18th century. At least we're acknowledging a woman's right to choose in the abstract. quote:
not so fast mr moneybags quote:Then Robin Hood turned to stout Edward of Deirwold, and said he, "Give thy blessing on thy daughter's marriage to this yeoman, and all will be well. Little John, give me the bags of gold. Look, farmer. Here are two hundred bright golden angels; give thy blessing, as I say, and I will count them out to thee as thy daughter's dower. Give not thy blessing, and she shall be married all the same, but not so much as a cracked farthing shall cross thy palm. Choose." I went over the "banns" above; basically the wedding is supposed to be announced in advance in case anyone has any objections. Tuck isn't really doing that properly, because he's not doing it enough in advance, but unlike the original ballad -- where Little John just takes the Bishop's robe and then performs the wedding himself -- this is a legally valid wedding, because Tuck is an ordained priest (not all monks were necessarily ordained; in fact it's a little unusual for Tuck to be an actual ordained priest, but he says he is, so we'll go with that). Note that as a "clerk in orders," Friar Tuck could claim "benefit of clergy" if arrested, basically the right to be tried in *church* courts rather than in royal courts; this meant among other things that it was much harder to be sentenced to hanging. . It was actually fairly common for outlaws in medieval england to claim "benefit of clergy," especially as anyone who could prove they could *read* qualified, at least for first-time offenses. quote:And now Robin counted out two hundred golden angels to Edward of Deirwold, and he, upon his part, gave his blessing, yet not, I wot, as though he meant it with overmuch good will. Then the stout yeomen crowded around and grasped Allan's palm, and he, holding Ellen's hand within his own, looked about him all dizzy with his happiness. Hey, Robin got him to promise! Classic Robin. Careful what you promise around a sly fox. quote:
With Tuck officially in the band, Robin's "court" is complete; he's a lord with a retinue, a minstrel, a chaplain, the whole works. I love these little ending asides Pyle does; they're really common at the end of stories in his book of fairy tales, the Wonder Clock, which I'll recommend to anyone who likes this one so far. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 00:37 on Aug 20, 2020 |
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Aug 20, 2020 00:16
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I got some questions about audiobook versions This is of course long out of copyright so there are a fair few versions and editions kicking around Here's a full reading of it on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRzFxdaijC4 archive.org audiobook version (with chapter divisions): https://archive.org/details/merry_adventures_robin_hood_librivox
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Aug 20, 2020 22:21
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A bit of bookkeeping: We're about at the halfway point in this book. My *rough* plan is to do another story every couple days or so, then finish with two additional posts about the history of the Robin Hood legend -- one about the "rob from the rich to give to the poor" legend and one about the various candidates for "historical" Robin. If people have any other suggestions on how this thread should go moving forward -- more deep dives, less, or maybe it's time for me to stop and we just open the floor to discussion -- lemme know. We're also at the two-thirds point on this month though so we need to start gathering nomination suggestions for next month's BOTM! Please post any ideas you have and I'll try to get up a poll in a few days.
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Aug 21, 2020 14:52
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Please keep diving, it's super interesting and leads to some really cool asides. Robin Hood: came for the robbery, stayed for the cheese.
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Aug 21, 2020 17:05
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anilEhilated posted:Please keep diving, it's super interesting and leads to some really cool asides. Robin Hood: came for the robbery, stayed for the cheese. Will do, I just don't want people to feel like they can't comment because they're waiting on me to get to something or w/e.
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Aug 21, 2020 17:36
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Next book should be either postwar or a something from beyond the western canon so that Mel can actually participate, heh. Love the effort posts, they're a welcome supplement once I've read a section myself. I know you said you were reading every related article you could get your hands on, any thoughts on maybe curating a list as part of the follow up?
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Aug 21, 2020 20:18
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Thanks for putting all this up, this has been a delightful little escapist rabbit hole for me tonight. A whole little world of good-natured forest bros just being merry and stout as gently caress. Particularly loved the Little John and the cook story. But I was also smiling in delight at the image of the Sheriff getting so amped about quarterstaff bouts that he briefly forgets he has fallen into the hands of bandits, who are presumably all laughing it up and cheering right along with him while the stoutest dudes ever land epic combo moves on each other.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:18
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Jack B Nimble posted:
Thanks! Yah, I'll go back and edit the "recommendations and further reading" with all the various stuff I've linked. Probably need to edit a TOC into the first post too. Thermos H Christ posted:Thanks for putting all this up, this has been a delightful little escapist rabbit hole for me tonight. A whole little world of good-natured forest bros just being merry and stout as gently caress. Particularly loved the Little John and the cook story. But I was also smiling in delight at the image of the Sheriff getting so amped about quarterstaff bouts that he briefly forgets he has fallen into the hands of bandits, who are presumably all laughing it up and cheering right along with him while the stoutest dudes ever land epic combo moves on each other. Thank you! This is one where I really enjoy sharing the joy.
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Aug 22, 2020 16:20
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Robin Hood Aids a Sorrowful Knight This story is based upon the central arc of A Gest of Robyn Hode, child ballad 117. quote:
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/gest-of-robyn-hode-introduction Text of the ballad is here: https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/gest-of-robyn-hode Living room grandpa singing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FiUMJZvak  quote:SO PASSED the gentle springtime away in budding beauty; its silver showers and sunshine, its green meadows and its flowers. So, likewise, passed the summer with its yellow sunlight, its quivering heat and deep, bosky foliage, its long twilights and its mellow nights, through which the frogs croaked and fairy folk were said to be out on the hillsides. All this had passed and the time of fall had come, bringing with it its own pleasures and joyousness; for now, when the harvest was gathered home, merry bands of gleaners roamed the country about, singing along the roads in the daytime, and sleeping beneath the hedgerows and the hay-ricks at night. Now the hips burned red in the tangled thickets and the hews waxed black in the hedgerows, the stubble lay all crisp and naked to the sky, and the green leaves were fast turning russet and brown. Also, at this merry season, good things of the year are gathered in in great store. Brown ale lies ripening in the cellar, hams and bacon hang in the smoke-shed, and crabs are stowed away in the straw for roasting in the wintertime, when the north wind piles the snow in drifts around the gables and the fire crackles warm upon the hearth. I want to warn people: from here on out, the text is going to start getting darker, little by little. This musing on the falling leaves is our first hint, as we look ahead from the halfway point, that the end of tales is approaching. quote:
The original ballad opens: quote:Than bespake hym gode Robyn: Robin, like Arthur, won't dine without a guest. Of course Robin's guests are people he's robbing, but still, an inversion is a parallel. So Robin and Little John each head off in a different direction to find some "guests." (An aside: "Gest" and "Guest" are not the same word; the "Gest" of the title is the same derivation as "quest" or "jest," basically just means "story.") quote:
In the original Gest, Robin just sends Little John out for this part. quote:They traveled onward, Robin following his fancy and the others following Robin. Now they wended their way through an open dale with cottage and farm lying therein, and now again they entered woodlands once more. Passing by fair Mansfield Town, with its towers and battlements and spires all smiling in the sun, they came at last out of the forest lands. You can find Mansfield Town on this convenient map:  or there's a google map with Robin Hood locations marked here: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...8,19.753418&z=6 I mention this now, instead of earlier, because Pyle is working hard here to keep the setting consistent; the original Gest starts the action in Barnsdale forest, *not Sherwood*, and then has the action cut back and forth between various locations in Barnsdale, Nottingham, Sherwood, etc. This is because the original Gest, much like Pyle, was likely also an attempt to combine a number of disparate "Robin Hood" traditions into one unified poem. quote:
In the earliest ballad sources, some of them place Robin in Barnsdale and some in Sherwood; the Gest appears to be set mostly in Barnsdale but has sections set in Nottingham, near Sherwood.. Of course, the two forests aren't *that* far apart -- it's not too hard for me to imagine Robin steppin' fifty miles or so up Barnsdale way whenever the Nottingham action got a little too hot. That cutting back and forth, though, is often construed as evidence that the Gest is combining multiple ballad sources into one whole: quote:
quote:Onward they journeyed, through highway and byway, through villages where goodwives and merry lasses peeped through the casements at the fine show of young men, until at last they came over beyond Alverton in Derbyshire. By this time high noontide had come, yet they had met no guest such as was worth their while to take back to Sherwood; so, coming at last to a certain spot where a shrine stood at the crossing of two roads, Robin called upon them to stop, for here on either side was shelter of high hedgerows, behind which was good hiding, whence they could watch the roads at their ease, while they ate their midday meal. Quoth merry Robin, "Here, methinks, is good lodging, where peaceful folk, such as we be, can eat in quietness; therefore we will rest here, and see what may, perchance, fall into our luck-pot." So they crossed a stile and came behind a hedgerow where the mellow sunlight was bright and warm, and where the grass was soft, and there sat them down. Then each man drew from the pouch that hung beside him that which he had brought to eat, for a merry walk such as this had been sharpens the appetite till it is as keen as a March wind. So no more words were spoken, but each man saved his teeth for better use—munching at brown crust and cold meat right lustily. I often find "saved his teeth for better use" floating unbidden into my thoughts whenever I sit down to a meal that looks to be particularly fine. quote:In front of them, one of the highroads crawled up the steep hill and then dipped suddenly over its crest, sharp-cut with hedgerow and shaggy grass against the sky. Over the top of the windy hill peeped the eaves of a few houses of the village that fell back into the valley behind; there, also, showed the top of a windmill, the sails slowly rising and dipping from behind the hill against the clear blue sky, as the light wind moved them with creaking and labored swing. So quiet and peaceful they can hear the slow creak of the windmill all that distance away. quote:
"Plain and rich" presumably means good fabric and well-made but little embroidery or embellishment. On the other hand, though, check the artwork:  I love how even the dude's horse is sad. Good horse. A knight's horse is his bro, and bros feel bros. That horse's caparison is fabulous. I want horse clothes that pimp in my next RPG. quote:
Not who, but what art thou. Robin gettin' philosophical. But our good Knight plays along, politely. Always be polite when you are in a fairy tale or legend. quote:"Now, I make my vow, Sir Knight," quoth Robin, "thou hast surely learned thy wisdom of good Gaffer Swanthold, for he sayeth, 'Fair words are as easy spoke as foul, and bring good will in the stead of blows.' Now I will show thee the truth of this saying; for, if thou wilt go with me this day to Sherwood Forest, I will give thee as merry a feast as ever thou hadst in all thy life." Of course you trust his knightly word! In the original Gest, Robin has Little John search the Knight, and the Knight is confirmed truthful. quote:Ćthelstan or Athelstan (/ˈćθəlstćn/; Old English: Ćđelstan [ˈć.đel.stɑn], Old Norse: Ađalsteinn, meaning "noble stone"; c. 894 – 27 October 939) was King of the Anglo-Saxons from 924 to 927 and King of the English from 927 to 939 when he died.[a] He was the son of King Edward the Elder and his first wife, Ecgwynn. Modern historians regard him as the first King of England and one of the greatest Anglo-Saxon kings. I can't find a specific story about Athelstan and the mole, but it seems a general riff on the Aesop's Fable of the Lion and the Mouse, reflavored a bit. quote:
We've met the Prior of Emmet once before; he was a guest at Alan-a-Dale's wedding. A "Priory" is abbey that has a cathedral attached -- in such cases, the Bishop would technically replace the Abbot, and the monastery itself would be headed by a Prior. So perhaps this Prior is attached to the Bishop of Hereford, who we also met previously. It appears to be a fictional Priory, as I can't find it on a list of monastic houses in England, but maybe it went away in the Dissolution. In the original Gest, his lands are held in pawn by St. Mary's Abbey. "Once the richest abbey in the north of England", it lies now in ruins, only the north and west walls still standing. quote:
Presumably, the Third Crusade, which makes this *slightly* out of historical sequence; technically, as we'll see a story or two down, we're still in the reign of King Henry II, and that's too late for the Second Crusade and too early for the Third, which happens under Richard the Lion-Hearted. Maybe his son is defending one of the Crusader States. quote:"Truly," said Robin, much moved, "thine is a hard lot. But tell me, what is owing to Emmet for thine estates?" I like that it's not just "nobody knows you when you're down and out": he's not just poor, he also has great enemies. His bros got scared. quote:Then Robin said, "Thou sayst thou hast no friends, Sir Richard. I make no boast, but many have found Robin Hood a friend in their troubles. Cheer up, Sir Knight, I may help thee yet." A bro in need is a bro indeed! quote:A rushlight is a type of candle or miniature torch formed by soaking the dried pith of the rush plant in fat or grease. For several centuries rushlights were a common source of artificial light for poor people throughout the British Isles. They were extremely inexpensive to make . . . Rushlights were still used in rural England to the end of the 19th century, and they had a temporary revival during World War II.[2] In parts of Wales the use of rushlights continued into the middle of the 20th century quote:The day was well-nigh gone when they came near to the greenwood tree. Even at a distance they saw by the number of men that Little John had come back with some guest, but when they came near enough, whom should they find but the Lord Bishop of Hereford! The good Bishop was in a fine stew, I wot. Up and down he walked beneath the tree like a fox caught in a hencoop. Behind him were three Black Friars standing close together in a frightened group, like three black sheep in a tempest. Hitched to the branches of the trees close at hand were six horses, one of them a barb with gay trappings upon which the Bishop was wont to ride, and the others laden with packs of divers shapes and kinds, one of which made Robin's eyes glisten, for it was a box not overlarge, but heavily bound with bands and ribs of iron. Ah, our other good friend from the wedding. The good Bishop actually gets his own ballad, "Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford," Child Ballad 144. We're going to get pretty much the entirety of that ballad mixed in here -- it's basically just "lol, Robin robbed the poo poo out of that dumb Bishop." The Bishopric of Hereford was a real office, rich enough that he lived in a literal Palace, which survived from the 12th century to the present as a Church of England property. You can find pictures of the Palace and articles about it here:  https://www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/uncertain-future-bishops-palace-hereford-3934445 Various high-res photos here: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/bishops-palace-hereford.html A list of the holders of the bishopric is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Hereford. If we assume we are still in the reign of Henry II, that would set this Bishop as either one Robert Foliot or one William de Vere -- quite Norman names. quote:
fuckin' classic. This joke is straight Pyle though, not from either of the ballad sources I've mentioned above. Even then I'm sure Pyle stole it from *somewhere*, I'm just not sure where. Shakespeare maybe? quote:"Nay, my Lord Bishop," said Robin, "we are rough fellows, but I trust not such ill men as thou thinkest, after all. There is not a man here that would harm a hair of thy reverence's head. I know thou art galled by our jesting, but we are all equal here in the greenwood, for there are no bishops nor barons nor earls among us, but only men, so thou must share our life with us while thou dost abide here. Come, busk ye, my merry men, and get the feast ready. Meantime, we will show our guests our woodland sports." Sir Richard's a Bro. The Bishop? Not so much. quote:But now Robin Hood called upon certain ones of his band who spread soft moss upon the ground and laid deerskins thereon. Then Robin bade his guests be seated, and so they all three sat down, some of the chief men, such as Little John, Will Scarlet, Allan a Dale, and others, stretching themselves upon the ground near by. Then a garland was set up at the far end of the glade, and thereat the bowmen shot, and such shooting was done that day as it would have made one's heart leap to see. And all the while Robin talked so quaintly to the Bishop and the Knight that, the one forgetting his vexation and the other his troubles, they both laughed aloud again and again. Oh Bishop, thou liest quote:
This "one third for charity, one third for Band, and a third you keep" is a gloss by Pyle on the original ballads. In "Robin Hood and the Bishop of Hereford", the Bishop is stripped of all his wealth and glad to escape with his life; in the Gest, Robin just has the money on hand, and the Knight swears to pay it back on Our Lady (the Virgin Mary), which Robin accepts as surety. This is the first time we see Pyle's Robin expressly "rob from the rich to give to the poor," so it's worth spending a little time on, but I want to finish out this chapter -- let's put a pin in this for now, and I'll come back to it. quote:
quote:
This passage here is really interesting to me because it hearkens back to the earlier discussion of social class. Robin and his band are all Yoemen -- that is, they are either successful property holders, or they are men-at-arms and upper-level servants in noble households. Households like Sir Richard's. Just as it was Good and Right for sturdy yoemen to leave lame jobs like tanning and milling to go be Forest Yoeman Bros, it's also Good and Right for stout Yoemen to serve a noble good and true Knight, like Sir Richard, and it's Good and Right for a Noble and True Knight like Sir Richard to have a retinue of Stout Yoemen. quote:Then up spake the Bishop of Hereford in a mournful voice, "I, too, must be jogging, good fellow, for the night waxes late." Not so fast, Moneybags! quote:But Robin laid his hand upon the Bishop's arm and stayed him. "Be not so hasty, Lord Bishop," said he. "Three days hence Sir Richard must pay his debts to Emmet; until that time thou must be content to abide with me lest thou breed trouble for the Knight. I promise thee that thou shalt have great sport, for I know that thou art fond of hunting the dun deer. Lay by thy mantle of melancholy, and strive to lead a joyous yeoman life for three stout days. I promise thee thou shalt be sorry to go when the time has come." Everybody likes living in the greenwood. Sheriff, Bishop, everybody. At heart, everyone's a Bro. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 00:22
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Any advice which version to get on kindle? I assume it’s all got the original art.
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Aug 23, 2020 09:47
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Idaholy Roller posted:Any advice which version to get on kindle? I assume it’s all got the original art. Unfortunately, almost all the ebook editions I've ever grabbed of this (and I've looked at a lot) have cut most or all of the illustrations; most of them are based on the Gutenberg text and that was digitized back when ebooks were .txt files without illustrations at all. Even the ones that say "illustrated" tend to have at best one or two near the front and that's it. The problem is that because this is long out of copyright, there are a *lot* of different reprint editions, most of which cut the illustrations or substitute in someone else's. The best ebook edition is the high-resolution scan from archive.org, but it's just direct scans of each page, so it's not really readable on a kindle -- it doesn't scale. The best "compromise" ebook version is probably the Dover Children's Classics Ebook, which does preserve most of the illustrations (even some of the interstitial ones and chapter headings etc), but it loses Pyle's layout and more importantly costs seven dollars: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00A736AX6/. So if you're going to spend the money, I'd recommend getting the physical copy (where the illustrations will be larger and easier to see the detail anyway). Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 12:31
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Ah, my favorite arc.quote:SO PASSED the gentle springtime away in budding beauty; its silver showers and sunshine, its green meadows and its flowers. So, likewise, passed the summer with its yellow sunlight, its quivering heat and deep, bosky foliage, its long twilights and its mellow nights, through which the frogs croaked and fairy folk were said to be out on the hillsides. All this had passed and the time of fall had come, bringing with it its own pleasures and joyousness; for now, when the harvest was gathered home, merry bands of gleaners roamed the country about, singing along the roads in the daytime, and sleeping beneath the hedgerows and the hay-ricks at night. Now the hips burned red in the tangled thickets and the hews waxed black in the hedgerows, the stubble lay all crisp and naked to the sky, and the green leaves were fast turning russet and brown. Also, at this merry season, good things of the year are gathered in in great store. Brown ale lies ripening in the cellar, hams and bacon hang in the smoke-shed, and crabs are stowed away in the straw for roasting in the wintertime, when the north wind piles the snow in drifts around the gables and the fire crackles warm upon the hearth. One of my favorite passages from any book. Thought about getting it done in calligraphy for wall hanging, but they charge by the line and it's a bit long. quote:For in truth hope, be it never so faint, bringeth a gleam into darkness, like a little rushlight that costeth but a groat. Another great line. Was their reference (here and elsewhere) to "fat priests" a common attitude at the time? Since the Church was on its way (or arriving) at being the largest landowner in England by this time, and monks had strayed somewhat from their eremitic roots. The Little John joke does seem familiar, but I have no idea where else I've seen it, or what type of joke it is.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:04
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Oh, there was something I didn't footnote that I should havequote:The Dragon of Wantley is a legend of a dragon-slaying by a knight on Wharncliffe Crags in South Yorkshire, recounted in a comic broadside ballad of 1685, later included in Thomas Percy's 1767 Reliques of Ancient English Poetry, and enjoying widespread popularity in the 18th and 19th centuries, although less well-known today. The ballad tells of how a huge dragon - almost as big as the Trojan Horse - devours anything it wishes, even trees and buildings, until the Falstaffian knight Moore of Moore Hall obtains a bespoke suit of spiked Sheffield armour and delivers a fatal kick to the dragon's "arse-gut" - its only vulnerable spot, as the dragon explains with its dying breath. The topography of the ballad is accurate in its detail as regards Wharncliffe Crags and environs, but the story, and its burlesque humour, has been enjoyed in places far from the landscape from which it appears to derive and has been used to make a number of points unrelated to it. quote:The dragon is also mentioned in the first paragraph of the opening chapter of Sir Walter Scott's novel Ivanhoe where Scott writes "In that pleasant district of Merry England which is watered by the River Don, there extended in ancient times a large forest...Here haunted of yore the fabulous Dragon of Wantley." https://www.exclassics.com/percy/perc184.htm
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Aug 24, 2020 03:04
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
I don't think Pyle would have known this, but having archers wearing mail armor would also be a pretty big flex for the 14th century, which as mentioned before is where a lot of Robin Hood stuff is from even if the ostensible time period is Richard I's reign. As armor got cheaper over the course of the medieval period, everyone got better protected, but prior to the invention of plate harness (over the course of the 14th century/early 15th), a mail shirt is pretty good for a regular soldier. Using some prices from a purchase of mail by the Tower of London's armory in the 1360s, a cheaper mail shirt could be around 16 shillings. That's over a month's wages for an English mounted archer's pay at 6 pence a day. So not impossible or out of reach, but pretty significant.
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Aug 24, 2020 03:21
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 12:18 |
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quote:Moore of Moore Hall obtains a bespoke suit of spiked Sheffield armour and delivers a fatal kick to the dragon's "arse-gut" - its only vulnerable spot, as the dragon explains with its dying breath. This quote caused me to immediately recall a favorite illustration from my childhood and put it in context, thanks.  Somebody fucked around with this message at 01:35 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 24, 2020 23:25
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