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I've finally caught up, but I have nothing in particular to contribute to the awesome edifice of Alloy's effortposts. Many thanks for running this thread!
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Sep 19, 2020 23:38
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Sorry for the delays since the last chapter went up -- this has kinda been a quarantine project for me and my work has been opening back up again, so I've had a little less time; also we're getting closer to the end of the book, and this book is one to make me dread endings. The Chase of Robin Hood This chapter is based on Child Ballad 146, "Robin Hood's Chase," a direct sequel to "Robin Hood and Queen Katherine" and generally thought to be by the same author. You can hear our ballad grandpa sing it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy_DSB_W9_s There's not much meat on the text of the ballad, though -- it's only about 24 verses long, Robin trying to get to Sherwood, going back to the Queen, and then obtaining mercy -- so Pyle fleshes it out a bit. So since there's not much to the original ballad, and we've covered the historical context when we were discussing Robin Hood and Queen Katherine in the last chapter, this chapter might be a good time to talk a bit about how Pyle structures his stories. If you pick up a book on screenwriting these days, it'll probably be mostly filled with Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. Campbell's theory was basically an attempt to look at mythology and literature and find an underlying story structure common to all stories -- the "grammar" of narratives, as it were. A good single-image breakdown of Campbell’s structure is here:  Campbell wasn't the first to do that kind of work -- Sir James Frazier kinda started the field with his Golden Bough back in the Victorian era -- but he synthesized and popularized it in an accessible way, and more importantly, George Lucas read his book then wrote Star Wars immediately afterwards, which kinda proved Campbell had hit upon a working model, and since then most screenwriting instruction will advise following Campbell's model pretty slavishly. The problem with the Campbellian structure is that it's pretty limiting; only certain kinds of stories -- primarily, quest / bildungsroman stories with male leads and happy endings -- fit into it. If you want to write a comedy of manners, or a satire, or a locked-room mystery, or a slice-of-life story, or anything without a happy ending, this formula won't work. (This is one reason Hollywood has gotten extremely formulaic in the past few decades; if you don't follow the Hero's Journey, it's harder to get funding). To an extent, Campbell has become a self-fulling prophecy; all the stories we see these days follow his model not because his model is truly universal, but just because it's a fairly reliable moneymaker and it's crowded out everything else. Pyle, of course, predates Campbell by a hundred years. Pyle was extremely structure-savvy for his time, though -- for example, his book The Wonder Clock is a set of twenty four semi-original fairy tales, constructed from disassembled and reassembled parts of more traditional fairy tales -- and there are certainly elements of the hero's journey throughout this book. Pyle's primary model seems to be something much more versatile, though, a model I've seen discussed in writing workshops but if it has a name I don't know it. Basically, it's a scene-based model. First you draw a good scene; then you introduce a complication; that complication leads to the next scene. Trey Parker and Mat Stone give a good breakdown of this approach in this video; they call it "but / therefore" storytelling. The basic model is:
2) don't connect your story beats with "and then"; that gets boring. 3) Connect your story beats with either "but then" or "therefore." It's almost a hegelian model; each beat is a thesis that is met by an antithesis and resolves into a new synthesis. There's an obvious advantage to this structure -- you can use it to write almost anything -- and it's easy to see why Pyle, as an illustrator, would fall into it fairly naturally. So let's apply those models -- the Campbellian and what I'll call the Hegelian -- to this story and see how well Pyle follows each of them. quote:
Our initial scene -- a brief one-sentence recap and a scene of guards bustin’ up the archery field. BUT! A villain emerges! quote:After the King left the archery ground, he went straightway to his cabinet, and with him went the Bishop of Hereford and Sir Robert Lee; but the King said never a word to these two, but sat gnawing his nether lip, for his heart was galled within him by what had happened. At last the Bishop of Hereford spoke, in a low, sorrowful voice: "It is a sad thing, Your Majesty, that this knavish outlaw should be let to escape in this wise; for, let him but get back to Sherwood Forest safe and sound, and he may snap his fingers at king and king's men." Thus the Bishop of Hereford has his revenge. None of this is in the ballad original; the Bishop isn't even mentioned in the Chase, and the King commits much less of an outright betrayal, because there's no forty-day grace period either; the King just promised safe conduct for the match, and after the match is over, sends his men after Robin. So this version is much more of an outright betrayal. I like how the Bishop is so slimy and dishonest, opening with “believe that I have nought but the good of England and Your Majesty's desirings at heart” and then relies on such outright misogyny to convince King Henry to break his word; for all that this has been a largely homosocial book, it's still made clear that misogyny is a thing of villains. And mayhap the "greatest villain in all England" is the one speaking, not good Robin. Opening with the villain like this isn’t part of the Hero’s Journey structure, but it *is* one of the few ways that Star Wars deviates from that structure, Darth Vader and our Bishop both opening the action. The next scene connects with a “but” &*and* a “therefore” ; Sir Richard has been ordered to go apprehend Robin, so he proceeds, but he does something else first. quote:
Sir Richard does what his Lord orders, but tries to help save is Lord's honor also. A slight disloyalty, but a great curteseye. Meanwhile . . . . (does that count as an “and?”) quote:
And <scene>. But what comes to disturb this jolly feast? quote:
No matter the hurry, Robin always pays the innkeep. Again, this whole sequence is added by Pyle; in the ballad, Robin makes it to Sherwood safely, then flees to Yorkshire, then basically just runs a circuit of all of northern England, heading up the east coast to Berwick then down the west coast to Chester (just south of Liverpool), with little detail, e.g., quote:
So Pyle's taking a dramatically different approach than his source material; not just a list of places, we're going to get an actual chase, Robin fleeing in the dead of night with armed men on his trail and the Bishop of Hereford already measuring out the hanging rope. In the Campbellian analysis, this is the opening of the myth, slightly out of sequence; Robin hears a Call to Adventure, crosses a threshold (stepping out from the Inn into the darkness), and receives outside aid (the Queen’s Messenger giving him warning), finally defeating the Guardian of the Threshold (paying the Innkeeper). So, sure, this fits, but that doesn’t really give us any information, it’s just a set of correspondences. And there are are lots of parts that *don't* fit -- for example, the entire Sir Richard sequence. Our next scene is a “therefore”: quote:
So we get a quick scene with Robin’s company escaping from the guards, and then wise Robin saves his men, but he is not so lucky in saving himself! quote:After having left the great northern road, he turned his face to the westward, and so came past Aylesbury, to fair Woodstock, in Oxfordshire. Thence he turned his footsteps northward, traveling for a great distance by way of Warwick Town, till he came to Dudley, in Staffordshire. Seven days it took him to journey thus far, and then he thought he had gotten far enough to the north, so, turning toward the eastward, shunning the main roads, and choosing byways and grassy lanes, he went, by way of Litchfield and Ashby de la Zouch, toward Sherwood, until he came to a place called Stanton. And now Robin's heart began to laugh aloud, for he thought that his danger had gone by, and that his nostrils would soon snuff the spicy air of the woodlands once again. But there is many a slip betwixt the cup and the lip, and this Robin was to find. For thus it was:  In a Hero’s Journey analysis, this is the “Belly of the Whale,” the hero’s lowest point and point of total separation from his prior life. Here’s Robin just thinking of the woodland, when WHAM! Arrows! Again, though, this is post-hoc reasoning; “Belly of the Whale” usually requires a literal or metaphorical passage underground (think Luke Skywalker underwater in the trash compactor). We could just as easily say this river Robin drinks from is a “Threshold” and Robin is defeating the threshold guardians by evading them. Either way, it’s just analysis of the story after the fact; we can match up Pyle’s tale to common tropes, but that just describes the story, it doesn’t really tell us how Pyle wrote it. What does? Well, that illustration is a start. One of the articles I posted above talks at length about Pyle’s narrative approach; basically, he looked for what he called “supreme moments” -- peak moments that would make great illustrations -- and then tried to link those moments up into a series that flowed one to the next. <Scene> and <Scene> but <Scene> therefore <Scene> . . .. quote:
The good Saint won’t forsake our Robin in his time of need!
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Sep 26, 2020 05:35
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Robin has made his prayer, and therefore there is an answer!quote:
Catching birds by dropping salt on their tales is a folk tale that dates back to the 16th century; I even tried it myself once as a kid (I couldn’t test it empirically, because the birds flew away, which may be the joke). quote:"Look ye, now!" said the Cobbler, all drowned in wonder. "And dost thou in sooth catch them by dropping salt on their pretty tails?" And scene. Most of that was just setup for the next scene:  quote:But Robin Hood had gone through more than he wotted of. His journey from London had been hard and long, and in a se'ennight he had traveled sevenscore and more of miles. He thought now to travel on without stopping until he had come to Sherwood, but ere he had gone a half a score of miles he felt his strength giving way beneath him like a river bank which the waters have undermined. He sat him down and rested, but he knew within himself that he could go no farther that day, for his feet felt like lumps of lead, so heavy were they with weariness. Once more he arose and went forward, but after traveling a couple of miles he was fain to give the matter up, so, coming to an inn just then, he entered and calling the landlord, bade him show him to a room, although the sun was only then just sinking in the western sky. There were but three bedrooms in the place, and to the meanest of these the landlord showed Robin Hood, but little Robin cared for the looks of the place, for he could have slept that night upon a bed of broken stones. So, stripping off his clothes without more ado, he rolled into the bed and was asleep almost ere his head touched the pillow. We know by now what’s gonna happen to a rich, fat Friar of Emmet Priory. quote:In the meantime the storm broke. Another gust of wind went rushing by, and with it fell a few heavy drops of rain, which presently came rattling down in showers, beating against the casements like a hundred little hands. Bright flashes of lightning lit up every raindrop, and with them came cracks of thunder that went away rumbling and bumping as though Saint Swithin were busy rolling great casks of water across rough ground overhead. The womenfolks screamed, and the merry wags in the taproom put their arms around their waists to soothe them into quietness. This whole section is another vignette from Lives of Famous Highwaymen.    In “Hero’s Journey” terms, this has all been the Road of Trials -- the side-adventures and minor complications the hero faces along the way to his final goal. But it can’t last; a final confrontation always looms. quote:
We’re a bit off-script if we’re following a strict Hero’s Journey now, because this is clear “supernatural”, that is outside, aid, but it still kinda fits, because the purpose is to take us to the next stage, the “Meeting with the Goddess.” quote:So Robin went with Sir Richard of the Lea, and did as he said, for he saw the wisdom of that which the knight advised, and that this was his only chance of safety. This is “Meeting with the Goddess” and “Atonement with the Father” in the Hero’s Journey cosmology. Also kindof “Atonement,” given her caution to Robin. I dunno though. To me it all feels a bit contrived. It’s all a bit mannered and artificial, the King finally just changing his mind because he got asked twice instead of once. While this particular tale can be shoehorned into the "Hero's Journey" pattern fairly easily, most of the tales in here can't (there aren't enough women in this book to have more than this one single Meeting with the Goddess, for example). More importantly, would this story be better if Pyle had followed the pattern more closely? If Robin had fought the Innkeeper over the tab, or made out with the Queen? Probably not. quote:For three days Robin abided in London in the Queen's household, and at the end of that time the King's head Page, Edward Cunningham, came, and taking Robin with him, departed northward upon his way to Sherwood. Now and then they passed bands of the King's men coming back again to London, but none of those bands stopped them, and so, at last, they reached the sweet, leafy woodlands. Why Cunningham instead of Partington? Who knows. Robin’s home safe -- "Crossing the Return Threshold" -- at least until the Sheriff makes one final, deadly play. Next: what may be the oldest and is certainly the grimmest of the Robin ballads: Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 01:04
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quote:Nought was left but a little pool of gravy in the center of the platter, not large enow to keep the life in a starving mouse. This whole arc, with the Queen, the archery match, and the escape, always seemed out of place to me. Maybe it's because the tone is different?
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Sep 27, 2020 08:23
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I find the treatment of the royalty in Robin Hood canon - today the most common opinion seems to be that the Robin Hood stories take place during the reign of Richard I, providing a convenient villain in the unpopular Prince John (I assume Ivanhoe is to blame, but the depiction is further reinforced by movies) but they only really show up at the end in Pyle who has most of it take place during the reign of Henry II - who, for all the influence Pyle has on the modern treatment of Robin Hood, seems to have entirely vanished from the more recent adaptations. One can see why they did that - the stories moving to film which benefits from having a single villain the audience can properly hate throughout two hours or so, but it's a bit of a shame and King Henry seems to be less shallow, motivated by his short temper and capable of changing his mind as opposed to cartoonish villainy.
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Sep 27, 2020 09:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Catching birds by dropping salt on their tales is a folk tale that dates back to the 16th century; I even tried it myself once as a kid (I couldn’t test it empirically, because the birds flew away, which may be the joke). I just want to point out that Robin's response to the cobbler's credulous enquiry, that they are 'as common as herring in Cannock Chase' seems likely to be some funny bamboozling of someone who's not very well-travelled. Cannock Chase is a forest in the midlands, so herring presumably aren't found there in great numbers!
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Sep 27, 2020 09:50
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Genghis Cohen posted:I just want to point out that Robin's response to the cobbler's credulous enquiry, that they are 'as common as herring in Cannock Chase' seems likely to be some funny bamboozling of someone who's not very well-travelled. Cannock Chase is a forest in the midlands, so herring presumably aren't found there in great numbers! Hhahahaha, that's amazing. I missed that entirely. And of course it fits with the general trend of Robin never precisely lying. Cobalt-60 posted:Another line I love. Oh I kinda agree, probably part of why it took me so long to get the chapters up. It's just very . . . mannered. Very courtly-love, lots of Arthurian influence, few pranks or jests (the high points are probably good Quince and the Friar), nobody joins the band,. Might be why Pyle put these two where he did, too, almost at the end of the book, but right before the final confrontations. anilEhilated posted:I find the treatment of the royalty in Robin Hood canon - today the most common opinion seems to be that the Robin Hood stories take place during the reign of Richard I, providing a convenient villain in the unpopular Prince John (I assume Ivanhoe is to blame, but the depiction is further reinforced by movies) but they only really show up at the end in Pyle who has most of it take place during the reign of Henry II - who, for all the influence Pyle has on the modern treatment of Robin Hood, seems to have entirely vanished from the more recent adaptations. Yeah, Henry II has been elided out of most modern versions. I think you're right and it's just that the strife between John and Richard makes for much better story -- you have a clear goodguy and a clear badguy. Historically it's a bit fuzzy though; John did try to seize power while Richard was away, but he didn't exactly succeed. The question of Pyle's influence on later versions is a big one. In some ways this read-through has made me think Pyle's direct influence was less than i had thought, because a lot of things I'd assumed came from Pyle were in fact straight from the ballads -- he's much more faithful to the ballad originals than I had thought. And visually speaking I think the Errol Flynn Robin Hood has probably been more directly influential than Pyle's illustrations -- see, e.g., the "Robin Hood Hat." I suspect, but can't prove, that the biggest clear influence we can see from Pyle's version -- mostly because it's the clearest addition Pyle makes to the ballads -- is the characterizations; we get really clear personalities for all the major players in the legend here. It's hard to say though since I haven't read all the Dumas version yet and it does predate Pyle slightly. But I feel that there's a pretty clear throughline from Pyle's not-that-bright-but-very-brave Little John to Disney's, or from Pyle's ever-jesting Robin to Erroll Flynn's magnificent laugh, etc. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Sep 27, 2020 |
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Sep 27, 2020 15:33
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Sorry i've gotten behind, I've gotten distracted marathoning all of Time Team, among other pursuits. Only a few chapters left!
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Oct 11, 2020 00:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Sorry i've gotten behind, I've gotten distracted marathoning all of Time Team, among other pursuits. i'm excited for more robin hood but will be sad when it's over
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Oct 11, 2020 07:20
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I've finished and am looking forward to your breakdown of that very weird ending.
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Oct 18, 2020 20:36
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Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne This is [likely] the oldest of the Robin Hood tales Pyle drew on, and definitely the bloodiest. It gives us the clearest outright evil in the entire Robin Hood legendarium; even where, as with Pyle, the Sheriff is relatively friendly, the constant butt of Robin's jests, Sir Guy stalks in, dangerous, threatening, the serpent in the Garden. quote:Robin Hood and Guy of Gisborne only survives in the folio manuscript acquired by Thomas Percy (British Library Add MSS 27879), which is dated in the mid seventeenth century and clearly is a collection of pre-existing materials; . . . . He gave it the title used here, though in other more recent versions of the title Robin's opponent is called Sir Guy. This honorific is used frequently in the text, but Percy may have omitted it, as Child does, from the ballad's title because the text states that he and Robin are both yeoman (line 87), and so the knightly title seems anomalous, though Percy did add a note that "Sir" was used outside the knightly class (1765, p. 86). . . . quote:The ballad is set in the Yorkshire Barnsdale area (line 181) and Gisborne, wherever precisely it may be, is in the same region (see note to line 138). This makes it seem odd that the outlaw's major enemy is the Sheriff of Nottingham. Though sheriffs did have some duty to pursue felons outside their precincts, this is too far for credibility, and this ballad, early though its origins are, must represent to some extent a conflation -- oral or literary -- of the differently located Robin Hood myths, a process taken further in the Gest. In the suggestion that the sheriff has employed Sir Guy (lines 99-100 and 187-90), we may well see a conscious articulation of two separate enemies, and at least one element of rationalization within this emotively intense text. https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/robin-hood-and-guy-of-gisborne-introduction So, with all that background out of the way . . . what's been going on in Sherwood lo these many days since our last adventure together? quote:A LONG TIME passed after the great shooting match, and during that time Robin followed one part of the advice of Sir Robert Lee, to wit, that of being less bold in his comings and his goings; for though mayhap he may not have been more honest (as most folks regard honesty), he took good care not to travel so far from Sherwood that he could not reach it both easily and quickly. Time is passing in the world outside, but time doesn't touch us in Sherwood, not the same way. Hint of Lothlórien there. quote:
The original ballad opens with Robin having a foreboding dream, then he and Little John go off together through the wood. The two of them see an armed man leaning on a tree, Little John volunteers to go talk to him first, Robin is rude to Little John because he thinks LJ is mocking him, and Little John gets mad and storms off, leaving Robin alone with the strange yoeman. quote:
Most modern adaptations leave this skinned-horse outfit out, perhaps because you can't see the hunky actor if he's wearing a horse-head mask. Most modern illustrators tend to make it look like he’s wearing a hat with bunny ears, which isn’t scary at all:  If you really envision it, though, it is creepy. https://media.gettyimages.com/videos/horse-head-mask-video-id618094936 Imagine, e.g., you're in the middle of the woods, you run into a fully-armed dude, except he's wearing one of those rubber horse head masks. Except it's not rubber, he's made it out of an actual horse head. Some analysts try to explain Guy's weird outfit as a survival from some mythic or legendary folk ritual or pagan figure, and that's possible. What seems more likely though, at least to me, is that it’s a survival from the “May Games” Robin Hood plays. In the 14th and 15th century, it was popular in various regions of the country for May Day revellers to dress as Robin Hood and perform local plays enacting various Robin Hood stories. quote:
See Holt, pp 148-49. These local-play May Games traditions pre-date most or all of the surviving ballads, and probably provided a lot of the ballad’s source material.So it makes sense that in our earliest Robin Hood ballad, we see a survival from those local plays. And a big scary dude wearing a goddam horse head would be a great, creepy, scary thing for a villain to wear in a village play, and not too hard to produce if there was a taxidermist around (which there probably often was). quote:"Halloa, friend," cried Robin, coming forward at last, "who art thou that sittest there? And what is that that thou hast upon thy body? I make my vow I ha' never seen such a sight in all my life before. Had I done an evil thing, or did my conscience trouble me, I would be afraid of thee, thinking that thou wast someone from down below bringing a message bidding me come straightway to King Nicholas." “Old Nick” was a medieval term for the Devil, possibly by association with the Näck or Nřkk, medieval water spirits that lured travellers to their death (and, coincidentally, sometimes appeared in horse form). This reference is pure Pyle, not ballad; my guess is Pyle got it out of Brewer’s Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. quote:
Robin is being cheeky as hell here, of course. Just pure Bugs Bunny Energy. What, you’re big and scary and weird? You’re being all brooding and rude? I think you’re cute. This characterization is all Pyle; after mentioning the weird horse hat, the ballad just has them meet, say “good fellow” to each other, and then proceed to the de rigeur archery contest because, hey, they’re both carrying bows. quote:
By the Bones of the Daemon Odin! Not just swearing by a French saint like some Norman invader now; no, this Guy isn’t even Christian. Just an outright unrepentant murderer without a goodly jest in all his body. quote:
I love this Robin, just cheery and friendly and cheeky and sly the whole while. quote:
Again the contrast, and again the sly truth-telling; Robin does know him well, and Guy has laid his life upon it, though he know it not. quote:"Why, truly, some folk do call him a great archer," said Robin Hood, "but we of Nottinghamshire are famous hands with the longbow. Even I, though but a simple hand at the craft, would not fear to try a bout with thee." Again I love Robin’s wide-eyed Bugs Bunny energy here, just slamming Gisbourne and faking naievete. quote:At these words Guy of Gisbourne glared savagely upon Robin. Quoth he, "Thou hast a merry tongue, thou villain; but take care that thou makest not too free with it, or I may cut it out from thy throat for thee." And an end to jesting. The entire book up till now, Robin has avoided bloodshed at every opportunity, but Robin knows Evil when he sees it, and he knows what to do about it when he does. quote:
At the crisis, Robin cries out to Mary -- hardly something that a modern Robin would do, but absolutely in character for a medieval, Catholic Robin, and indeed Robin's particular adoration of the Virgin Mother is a hallmark of his character through all the earliest ballads; this combat sequence is right out of the ballad source material, nearly word for word.  Again, Pyle illustrating the “Climactic Moment” of the tale. Interestingly, Pyle hasn’t drawn the horse-head mask here -- instead he’s drawn Guy face down, in garb similar to Robin’s own, with the two men like of height and build. Which, as we see, will fit with the rest of the story. quote:Then Robin Hood wiped his sword and thrust it back into the scabbard, and, coming to where Guy of Gisbourne lay, he stood over him with folded arms, talking to himself the while. "This is the first man I have slain since I shot the Kings forester in the hot days of my youth. I ofttimes think bitterly, even yet, of that first life I took, but of this I am as glad as though I had slain a wild boar that laid waste a fair country. Since the Sheriff of Nottingham hath sent such a one as this against me, I will put on the fellow's garb and go forth to see whether I may not find his worship, and perchance pay him back some of the debt I owe him upon this score." Next: the rest of this tale -- what shenanigans has Little John been up to this while? Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 04:22
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Meanwhile, it was brought to my attention that there is a Wishbone Robin Hood episode: "Paw Prints of Thieves" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-Fd0m9trUI 
Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 06:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne Apart from some of the end sequences which we will get to later on, that bit is one of the strongest (I mean most emotive) bits of dialogue in the book to me. It's incredibly stagey and long-winded but it just fits so well, juxtaposed with how cool and collected Robin (outwardly) was in the conversation up to that point. He'll hold it together, but he is just 100% not down with Gisborne and his whole shtick. It really comes off well as an explosion of righteous anger, he was straining to hold himself in the entire time and now, having fulfilled the archery requirement, he's going to put a stop to this.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:07
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I would assume the chapteris placed where it is within the book for a more gradual tone switch in preparation for the ending. This is the first time Robin has killed someone since his self-inflicted exile into Sherwood and it is a grim tale. In retrospect, and having read the rest of the book, all the staff-fighting makes a lot of sense - there is a definite message of things going horribly wrong once Robin starts killing people.
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Oct 20, 2020 18:21
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anilEhilated posted:I would assume the chapteris placed where it is within the book for a more gradual tone switch in preparation for the ending. This is the first time Robin has killed someone since his self-inflicted exile into Sherwood and it is a grim tale. Yeah, it's all fun and games until someone gets a sword run through their body. You're right though there's a definite turn. After the initial outlawry, the book starts with the most joyful, merriest jests, everybody joining up and having Forest Bro fun, probably peaks in innocent joyfulness with the wedding of Alan-a-Dale, and then gets a little darker tale by tale by tale until we come to this crisis. Genghis Cohen posted:Apart from some of the end sequences which we will get to later on, that bit is one of the strongest (I mean most emotive) bits of dialogue in the book to me. It's incredibly stagey and long-winded but it just fits so well, juxtaposed with how cool and collected Robin (outwardly) was in the conversation up to that point. He'll hold it together, but he is just 100% not down with Gisborne and his whole shtick. It really comes off well as an explosion of righteous anger, he was straining to hold himself in the entire time and now, having fulfilled the archery requirement, he's going to put a stop to this. As I was writing this I kept thinking of the scene in Avatar: Last Airbender where Zuko is talking with Uncle Iroh about trying to save Azula: Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:16 on Oct 21, 2020 |
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Oct 21, 2020 03:12
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quote:
Weeping. We’ve only seen weeping once before in this book, poor Alan-A-Dale. I think we know how good, soft-hearted Little John will react to such doings. quote:
This setup with the three widow’s sons is a common element in a lot of different Robin Hood ballads, but it shows up first here, so Pyle has placed it here. This creates an interesting effect, because this sequence is what most of the ballads use to establish that the Sheriff is a “baddie”; we haven’t seen it till now, so the Sheriff has seemed relatively pleasant, just a comic foil for Robin’s japes. quote:To all this Little John listened, shaking his head sadly now and then. "Alas," quoth he, when the good dame had finished her speech, "this is indeed an ill case. But who is this that goeth into Sherwood after Robin Hood, and why doth he go to seek him? But no matter for that now; only that I would that Robin Hood were here to advise us. Nevertheless, no time may be lost in sending for him at this hour, if we would save the lives of thy three sons. Tell me, hast thou any clothes hereabouts that I may put on in place of these of Lincoln green? Marry, if our stout Sheriff catcheth me without disguise, I am like to be run up more quickly than thy sons, let me tell thee, dame." This bit of dialogue fixes a narrative issue in the ballad -- how does Little John know that Robin Hood is in danger? And, of course, the additional problem that in this text, the Sheriff knows well good Reynold Greenleaf. quote:Then the old woman told him that she had in the house some of the clothes of her good husband, who had died only two years before. These she brought to Little John, who, doffing his garb of Lincoln green, put them on in its stead. Then, making a wig and false beard of uncarded wool, he covered his own brown hair and beard, and, putting on a great, tall hat that had belonged to the old peasant, he took his staff in one hand and his bow in the other, and set forth with all speed to where the Sheriff had taken up his inn. Not our friendly Blue Boar, this place. There’s no Inn scene in the ballad, this is added. quote:
 Sheriff pulling a Denethor here, just feasting right in front of the starving men he’s about to execute for trying to not starve. quote:
This is the most merciless we’ve seen the Sheriff in this whole book, and the first time he’s really been shown as plain evil. Up till now, it’s all been Robin vs. Sheriff; now it’s Sheriff vs. the Starving Poor. quote:In the meantime, while all this had been going forward, an old man had drawn near and stood leaning on his staff, looking on. His hair and beard were all curly and white, and across his back was a bow of yew that looked much too strong for him to draw. As the Sheriff looked around ere he ordered his men to string the three youths up to the oak tree, his eyes fell upon this strange old man. Then his worship beckoned to him, saying, "Come hither, father, I have a few words to say to thee." So Little John, for it was none other than he, came forward, and the Sheriff looked upon him, thinking that there was something strangely familiar in the face before him. "How, now," said he, "methinks I have seen thee before. What may thy name be, father?" Good Sly Little John! But note how the Sheriff’s mercilessness turns against him: quote:
Little John nobly risking all to defend the defenseless. I think that means they tied him with his face in the horse’s butt, which is just rude. But the Sheriff doesn’t know how to take his wins; he always wants to wait a little longer to double down. So he carts Little John off for a formal execution -- how do we think this is going to play out? quote:Once more the Sheriff of Nottingham sat within the King's Head Inn. His heart rejoiced within him, for he had at last done that which he had sought to do for years, taken Little John prisoner. Quoth he to himself, "This time tomorrow the rogue shall hang upon the gallows tree in front of the great gate of Nottingham Town, and thus shall I make my long score with him even." So saying, he took a deep draught of Canary. But it seemed as if the Sheriff had swallowed a thought with his wine, for he shook his head and put the cup down hastily. "Now," he muttered to himself, "I would not for a thousand pounds have this fellow slip through my fingers; yet, should his master escape that foul Guy of Gisbourne, there is no knowing what he may do, for he is the cunningest knave in all the world—this same Robin Hood. Belike I had better not wait until tomorrow to hang the fellow." So saying, he pushed his chair back hastily, and going forth from the inn called his men together. Quoth he, "I will wait no longer for the hanging of this rogue, but it shall be done forthwith, and that from the very tree whence he saved those three young villains by stepping betwixt them and the law. So get ye ready straightway." Oh poo poo. The Sheriff is learning? He’s not waiting after all? poo poo poo poo poo poo quote:Then once more they sat Little John upon the horse, with his face to the tail, and so, one leading the horse whereon he sat and the others riding around him, they went forward to that tree from the branches of which they had thought to hang the poachers. On they went, rattling and jingling along the road till they came to the tree. Here one of the men spake to the Sheriff of a sudden. "Your Worship," cried he, "is not yon fellow coming along toward us that same Guy of Gisbourne whom thou didst send into the forest to seek Robin Hood?" At these words the Sheriff shaded his eyes and looked eagerly. "Why, certes," quoth he, "yon fellow is the same. Now, Heaven send that he hath slain the master thief, as we will presently slay the man!" Robin doesn’t lie! quote:Then out spake Little John, for the first time since he had fallen into the Sheriff's hands. "O thou vile, bloody wretch! I know thee, Guy of Gisbourne, for who is there that hath not heard of thee and cursed thee for thy vile deeds of blood and rapine? Is it by such a hand as thine that the gentlest heart that ever beat is stilled in death? Truly, thou art a fit tool for this coward Sheriff of Nottingham. Now I die joyfully, nor do I care how I die, for life is nought to me!" So spake Little John, the salt tears rolling down his brown cheeks. Oh no poor Little John, no thought for himself, just for his Bro ! quote:But the Sheriff of Nottingham clapped his hands for joy. "Now, Guy of Gisbourne," cried he, "if what thou tellest me is true, it will be the best day's doings for thee that ever thou hast done in all thy life." I may be imagining a bit of an inverted biblical parallel here with Mark 14:72 : quote:
quote:
Hah-hah, he shot him in the butt. The Percy Folio has this as quote:
And even that is probably euphemized from earlier versions, most of which have Sheriff shot dead at this point. quote:Thus the Sheriff and a score of men ran away from Robin Hood and Little John; so that when Will Stutely and a dozen or more of stout yeomen burst from out the covert, they saw nought of their master's enemies, for the Sheriff and his men were scurrying away in the distance, hidden within a cloud of dust like a little thunderstorm.
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Nov 15, 2020 17:52
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Face to its tail and legs tied under its belly just means facing backwards.
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Nov 23, 2020 10:54
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Really looking forward to the next bit of this. It starts to bring us to the end sequence, which I remember as being very affecting.
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Nov 26, 2020 12:01
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Genghis Cohen posted:Really looking forward to the next bit of this. It starts to bring us to the end sequence, which I remember as being very affecting. Thanks! I'm working on a draft of the next chapter now. It's going to take a little while though because this seems like the natural chapter to tackle the "historical robin" question, which is a lot, and may get broken out as a separate post (not entirely sure yet).
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Nov 26, 2020 14:01
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https://twitter.com/jeffspross/status/1333520879444221958
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Dec 1, 2020 14:17
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Dec 1, 2020 18:06
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https://twitter.com/ThorEwing/status/1328699881146478592?s=20
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Dec 3, 2020 13:43
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drat, that tree's thicc PS update the thread you coward
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Dec 30, 2020 07:57
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That’s a couple weird feet on that tree then
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Dec 30, 2020 09:41
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King Richard Comes to Sherwood Forest This chapter brings us one of the linchpins of the Robin Hood legend: King Richard visits Sherwood in disguise, meets Robin, and Robin pledges loyalty to the King, enters the King’s service, and is pardoned his outlawry. So frequently does this form the closing arc of Robin Hood movies that film buffs sometimes refer to “King Richard of the Last Reel.” The primary version Pyle draws on here is “The King’s Disguise and Friendship with Robin Hood”, Child Ballad 151. . Some version of this story dates back as far as anything else in the Robin Hood legendarium, though, right back to the Gest, and Pyle draws on the Gest also, with a bit of his own invention mixed in too. The version in the Gest has Robin Hood meet King Edward, which is nice and vague historically as there were three different King Edwards with reigns spanning over a hundred years in total (from 1272 to 1377), and then a fourth Edward some hundred years after that. In the 1500’s, though, historians start setting Robin in the reign of King Richard the Lionheart. This becomes the “standard” telling, and by the time of the 1670 Forresters Manuscript (and the later versions collected by Ritson and Childs) all popular versions of the tale are set firmly in King Richard’s reign. It wasn’t really until Walter Scott’s Ivanhoe that this meeting got set as part of Richard’s attempt to reclaim Britain from his knavish brother, with Robin aiding the returning King. As the Bold Outlaw website points out, that has the effect of making Robin much less of an outlaw -- he’s just a rebel, and a rebel *in service of* the rightful, lawful authority. Since Pyle is working from the ballads, though, not later sources, he mostly leaves that conflict out, and in this telling Robin remains a real outlaw, not a loyal rebel. quote:NOT MORE than two months had passed and gone since these stirring adventures befell Robin Hood and Little John, when all Nottinghamshire was a mighty stir and tumult, for King Richard of the Lion's Heart was making a royal progress through merry England, and everyone expected him to come to Nottingham Town in his journeying. Messengers went riding back and forth between the Sheriff and the King, until at last the time was fixed upon when His Majesty was to stop in Nottingham, as the guest of his worship. quote:
BBC: Did Robin Hood Ever Meet King Richard? (this incident is what Walter Scott drew on for the conflict in Ivanhoe). Still, though, this incident does mean that Richard was in the right place, and perhaps at the right time. Was a good Robin? Also perhaps; there is a record of one “Robert Hod,” fugitive and outlaw, whose goods were confiscated at the York Assizes in 1225 . . . some thirty years later. See Holt, pp. 54-55. Hrm. Doesn’t quite work. And we don’t really see much historical evidence for use of the longbow until the 1300’s, which makes it hard for Robin to exist in the 1100’s and 1200’s under Richard and John if his iconic weapon didn’t yet. But that’s all just what the dull historians say with their dusty tomes. What really happened is the good King Richard came and gave a parade: quote:And now came more bustle than ever; a great running hither and thither, a rapping of hammers and a babble of voices sounded everywhere through the place, for the folk were building great arches across the streets, beneath which the King was to pass, and were draping these arches with silken banners and streamers of many colors. Great hubbub was going on in the Guild Hall of the town, also, for here a grand banquet was to be given to the King and the nobles of his train, and the best master carpenters were busy building a throne where the King and the Sheriff were to sit at the head of the table, side by side. If it wasn’t Richard making this parade -- and if we assume that the ballad has some root in historicity -- then what other king could it have been? One leading candidate is Edward II, partly because the original Gest ascribes this tale to an Edward, and partly because surviving records indicate that Edward II, uniquely among the Kings of the period, did in fact make a “progress” which fits the Gest -- travelling to Yorkshire, Lancashire, and then Nottingham -- between April and November of 1323. This date is especially enticing because one “Robyn Hode” appears in surviving records as “Porter of the King’s Chamber” in March 1324, leaving the King’s service a few months later, in November of the same year. There are some other neat synchronicities if we assign Robin to the reign of Edward II. See Holt, pp 45. A “Robert Hood” with his wife “Matilda” appears on the court rolls of a local manor in 1316 and 17, and there was a convenient rebellion in this about and around this time period, too, which could explain an outlawry, and it’s even possible that the evil Prioress of Kirklees (who we’ll meet next chapter) was related somehow to this Robin’s wife Matilda . Plus,all those references to the Bishop of Hereford can be neatly made to fit Adam Orleton,mentioned above. So that ties everything up with a bow quite nicely, doesn’t it? Clear origin for historical Robin! Unfortunately, it turns out this theory isn’t quite as conclusive as it seems. The the surviving records have many gaps, and portions uncovered with ultraviolet light indicate good Robyn Hode may (1) have been already in the King’s service before the King visited Nottingham, and (2) seems to have been paid off in 1324 in retirement as no longer able to work -- hardly our stout yoeman. See Holt, 48-49. More directly, it seems that “Hood” was a local family, with a number of different members, so we can’t establish that “Robyn Hode” and “Robert Hood” are the same person; they could be cousins, fathers, sons, etc. The larger problem is that variants of “Robinhood” as a surname start appearing in court rolls well prior to the reign of either Edward -- the earliest being a “William Robehod” who appears in court rolls in 1261, that is, during the reign of Henry III, the son of King John. Importantly, it can be proved from other records that this William’s name was changed to “Robehod,” meaning that the Robin Hood legend had already begun to spread by that time. See Holt, pp. 187. Which means . . . wait, if we allow a few decades for a legend to grow and spread. . . are we back in King Richard’s day after all? Well, if we would know the truth of a thing, we must see it with our own eyes. Let’s go back and check on him, see how he’s doing. quote:Eventide had come; the great feast in the Guild Hall at Nottingham Town was done, and the wine passed freely. A thousand waxen lights gleamed along the board, at which sat lord and noble and knight and squire in goodly array. At the head of the table, upon a throne all hung with cloth of gold, sat King Richard with the Sheriff of Nottingham beside him. This chunk, and the addition of Sir Henry, is pure Pyle. We haven’t even reached the beginning of The King’s Disguise yet, and in the Gest, at this point the King is offering a reward for Robin’s and Sir Richard’s heads. quote:That night the King sat in the place that was set apart for his lodging while in Nottingham Town. With him were young Sir Henry of the Lea and two other knights and three barons of Nottinghamshire; but the King's mind still dwelled upon Robin Hood. "Now," quoth he, "I would freely give a hundred pounds to meet this roguish fellow, Robin Hood, and to see somewhat of his doings in Sherwood Forest." This is how “The King’s Disguise” starts, with the King just deciding to disguise himself as a trick to meet Robin: quote:
This isn’t necessarily as fantastic a plot contrivance as it might seem; it’s documented that when Richard was returning from the Crusades, after a shipwreck he for a time travelled disguised as a Knight Templar. His disguise was penetrated, leading to his capture, but if you’re looking for a King of England who travelled about in disguise, Richard is documented to have done exactly that at least once. Why not twice? quote:So it happened that when early the next morning the Sheriff came to where his liege lord was abiding, to pay his duty to him, the King told him what they had talked of the night before, and what merry adventure they were set upon undertaking that morning. But when the Sheriff heard this he smote his forehead with his fist. "Alas!" said he, "what evil counsel is this that hath been given thee! O my gracious lord and King, you know not what you do! This villain that you thus go to seek hath no reverence either for king or king's laws." Oh no, good Sheriff; thou art craven! And with no heart for a goodly jest! Sad am I to hear such of thee . . . quote:But now seven habits such as Black Friars wear were brought, and the King and those about him having clad themselves therein, and His Majesty having hung a purse with a hundred golden pounds in it beneath his robes, they all went forth and mounted the mules that had been brought to the door for them. Then the King bade the Sheriff be silent as to their doings, and so they set forth upon their way. Onward they traveled, laughing and jesting, until they passed through the open country; between bare harvest fields whence the harvest had been gathered home; through scattered glades that began to thicken as they went farther along, till they came within the heavy shade of the forest itself. They traveled in the forest for several miles without meeting anyone such as they sought, until they had come to that part of the road that lay nearest to Newstead Abbey. Technically, not a crime! Just a contract for sale! This little “exchange” is Pyle’s addition to the ballad original, which doesn’t go into anything like this kind of detail. quote:"How now, fellow," quoth the King, "who art thou, thou naughty rogue? Hast thou no regard for such holy men as we are?" The King’s person, of course, was sacred, and not to be touched by the common man. Brave Richard isn’t exactly good at staying in character! But note -- the King asking “hast thou no regard for such holy men as we are?” has an answer Robin guesses not, because the King’s person is a different kind of sacred than Robin expects! quote:Will Scarlet took the purse and counted out the money. Then Robin bade him keep fifty pounds for themselves, and put fifty back into the purse. This he handed to the King. "Here, brother," quoth he, "take this half of thy money, and thank Saint Martin, on whom thou didst call before, that thou hast fallen into the hands of such gentle rogues that they will not strip thee bare, as they might do. But wilt thou not put back thy cowl? For I would fain see thy face." Saint Martin is Saint Martin of Tours -- that is a French, or Norman, saint. But Robin respects the vow (and Robin has seen the King’s face already, at the parade! So this bit of deceit is necessary.) quote:So he called seven of his yeomen and bade them each one take a mule by the bridle; then, turning their faces toward the depths of the woodlands, they journeyed onward until they came to the open glade and the greenwood tree. King Richard doing Robin’s thing! quote:"These are not all of my fellows," said Robin proudly, "for threescore more of them are away on business with my good right-hand man, Little John. But, as for King Richard, I tell thee, brother, there is not a man of us all but would pour out our blood like water for him. Ye churchmen cannot rightly understand our King; but we yeomen love him right loyally for the sake of his brave doings which are so like our own." And note the reversal: always before when Robin played Not-Robin, it exposed his victims. Now when the King plays Not-King, it exposes Robin’s loyalty and virtue. quote:But now Friar Tuck came bustling up. "Gi' ye good den, brothers," said he. "I am right glad to welcome some of my cloth in this naughty place. Truly, methinks these rogues of outlaws would stand but an ill chance were it not for the prayers of Holy Tuck, who laboreth so hard for their well-being." Here he winked one eye slyly and stuck his tongue into his cheek. ARCHERY CONTEST! Gotta have an archery contest! I wonder who will win? quote:"With all my heart," said Robin, "we are always pleased to show our guests all the sport that is to be seen. As Gaffer Swanthold sayeth, 'Tis a hard heart that will not give a caged starling of the best'; and caged starlings ye are with us. Ho, lads! Set up a garland at the end of the glade." Pyle calling himself out here, of course. quote:In the meantime the mark at which they were to shoot was set up at sixscore paces distance. It was a garland of leaves and flowers two spans in width, which same was hung upon a stake in front of a broad tree trunk. "There," quoth Robin, "yon is a fair mark, lads. Each of you shoot three arrows thereat; and if any fellow misseth by so much as one arrow, he shall have a buffet of Will Scarlet's fist." WHOOPS (This failure is pure Pyle, not present in the ballad sources). quote:At this a great roar went up, those of the yeomen who sat upon the grass rolling over and over and shouting with laughter, for never before had they seen their master so miss his mark; but Robin flung his bow upon the ground with vexation. "Now, out upon it!" cried he. "That shaft had an ill feather to it, for I felt it as it left my fingers. Give me a clean arrow, and I will engage to split the wand with it." At these words the yeomen laughed louder than ever. "Nay, good uncle," said Will Scarlet in his soft, sweet voice, "thou hast had thy fair chance and hast missed thine aim out and out. I swear the arrow was as good as any that hath been loosed this day. Come hither; I owe thee somewhat, and would fain pay it." Again just a masterful little inversion here, especially since the King is holy. quote:"With all my heart," quoth merry King Richard, rising from where he was sitting. "I owe thee somewhat for having lifted a heavy weight of fifty pounds from my purse. So make room for him on the green, lads."  quote:
Pyle seems to be doing a riff on a La Belle Dame Sans Merci thing here. Allan is ahead of his time! quote:But now one came forward and said that the feast was ready; so Robin Hood brought King Richard and those with him to where it lay all spread out on fair white linen cloths which lay upon the soft green grass. Then King Richard sat him down and feasted and drank, and when he was done he swore roundly that he had never sat at such a lusty repast in all his life before.  "Cucullus non facit monachem" : "The cowl does not make the monk." Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 24, 2021 13:46
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 This part doesn’t make sense at all historically; there’s only one specific time when Richard and a theoretical Robin could have met, Richard only lived six months after that, and “Earl” is an incredibly high title -- just one step below a Dukedom; furthermore, the title of “Earl of Huntingdon” has never been held by anyone named Robert or Robin or anything similar (although there are a few other historical candidates for “noble” Robins.) But who am I to argue with good Master Pyle? And it’s not like the historians have such perfect records, anyway. Only the Epilogue remains; one more post. If you want more about the historical Robin, here's a pretty accessible BBC documentary on various historical Robin Hood theories (Hosted by Tony Robinson!). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPRBQadLNIM I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but it does a good job covering a broader range of various historical Robin theories than I was able to above since I had to stick to Pyle. It tends to present a lot of theories or inferences as "historical fact" -- "historians say" replaces "some historians think" a bit too often -- but it's accessible and relatively well done and as complete as it can be within forty-eight minutes, and it goes around to the various locales of the actual ballads and shows them as they are today. Near the end there's video of "Robin's Grave", Kirklees as it stands today, etc. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 21, 2022 |
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Jan 24, 2021 13:47
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Great stuff! Really looking forward to the epilogue. On the historiography side, it's interesting that Robin Hood stuff is firmly on the side of Richard I as a 'good king'. Presumably this was the consensus when his reign solidified as the setting for Robin Hood. I wonder how long after his death that perception came about? It's hard to believe that Richard was too popular in England at the time of his death, with the ransom paying and all. Maybe he just got a huge PR boost off his brother being a disaster.
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Jan 24, 2021 20:20
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Genghis Cohen posted:Great stuff! Really looking forward to the epilogue. On the historiography side, it's interesting that Robin Hood stuff is firmly on the side of Richard I as a 'good king'. Presumably this was the consensus when his reign solidified as the setting for Robin Hood. I wonder how long after his death that perception came about? It's hard to believe that Richard was too popular in England at the time of his death, with the ransom paying and all. Maybe he just got a huge PR boost off his brother being a disaster. From all I've read, it seems Richard was "popular" among his subjects at the time, though "popular" might mean something different then than it would today -- nobody was asking the peasantry, or, for that matter, at this stage, even the nobility. Richard seems to have had, for lack of a better term, "star power." Whatever else you say about him, he was always out there doing cool poo poo. His personal heroism seems to have overshadowed everything else. The clergy seem to have complained about taxes, since they were normally exempt, but I can't tell if anyone listened to the complaints. Then John comes along and does essentially the same things, but without the star power, and well, we all saw how that worked out. There's a decent argument that John got left holding the bag for the rest of the family's fuckups. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:31 on Jan 25, 2021 |
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Jan 25, 2021 20:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:But Robin respects the vow (and Robin has seen the King’s face already, at the parade! So this bit of deceit is necessary.) It is precisely because Robin has seen the King's face already that this is necessary!
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Jan 26, 2021 01:22
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What’s up with this ending? It feels pretty perfunctory. Also, interesting foreshadowing with Robin missing and losing the contest for the first time. And then getting smacked by the king.
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Jan 26, 2021 01:35
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poisonpill posted:What’s up with this ending? It feels pretty perfunctory. Also, interesting foreshadowing with Robin missing and losing the contest for the first time. And then getting smacked by the king. Like everything else, it's following the ballad tradition. This is how Robin Hood stories always end, this is a traditional part of the tales, and Pyle is following the ballads. Plus, this book is to an extent Pyle trying to execute an artistic project like William Morris and the Pre-Raphaelites; he's not just trying to tell a Robin Hood story, he's also trying to make a project that scholars and artists and other professionals can point to as a well-executed version of the traditional ballads, and this is one of the most traditional ballads, so into the book it goes. That said, it fits in a general way thematically too: Robin gets away with everything and gets de-outlawed, and he does it by being a Good Dude (showing loyalty to the King) even when he's being tricked, and by showing the King what it means to be a cool forest bro. Character wins out, especially among Good Dudes. There is still the epilogue to go, though, which is a different kind of ending. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 01:41
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Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:58 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 03:43
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quote:And now, dear friend, you who have journeyed with me in all these merry doings, I will not bid you follow me further, but will drop your hand here with a "good den," if you wish it; for that which cometh hereafter speaks of the breaking up of things, and shows how joys and pleasures that are dead and gone can never be set upon their feet to walk again. I will not dwell upon the matter overlong, but will tell as speedily as may be of how that stout fellow, Robin Hood, died as he had lived, not at court as Earl of Huntingdon, but with bow in hand, his heart in the greenwood, and he himself a right yeoman. If you’re in doubt, please heed that warning -- I usually do, and typically stop my re-reads here, and clap to the leaves with a sigh, or return again to the beginning. But this time I am bound to finish this out, so those of us who will, let us take these final few steps together. This epilogue is, like most of the other chapters, deeply traditional and based on the Child Ballad; in this case, specifically, parts of “Robin Hood and the Valiant Knight,” Child Ballad 153, “Robin Hood’s Death,” Child Ballad 120, and of course the Gest. quote:
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quote:It was in the springtime when they landed once more on the shores of England. The leaves were green and the small birds sang blithely, just as they used to do in fair Sherwood when Robin Hood roamed the woodland shades with a free heart and a light heel. All the sweetness of the time and the joyousness of everything brought back to Robin's mind his forest life, so that a great longing came upon him to behold the woodlands once more. So he went straightway to King John and besought leave of him to visit Nottingham for a short season. The King gave him leave to come and to go, but bade him not stay longer than three days at Sherwood. So Robin Hood and Allan a Dale set forth without delay to Nottinghamshire and Sherwood Forest. Oh, oh, oh, I’ve been there. You go back, and you’re there, but no one else is there, and it’s not the same, and neither are you any more, and you can’t ever go back again, not really. quote:That morning he had slung his good old bugle horn over his shoulder, and now, with the yearning, came a great longing to sound his bugle once more. He raised it to his lips; he blew a blast. "Tirila, lirila," the sweet, clear notes went winding down the forest paths, coming back again from the more distant bosky shades in faint echoes of sound, "Tirila, lirila, tirila, lirila," until it faded away and was lost. Oh this moment, oh the fantasy: you can go back again. All will be as it was. All your absent friends will return. Everything good from your youth will come back again, and be as it was again forever. quote:After a while Robin looked around him with tear-dimmed eyes and said, in a husky voice, "Now, I swear that never again will I leave these dear woodlands. I have been away from them and from you too long. Now do I lay by the name of Robert, Earl of Huntingdon, and take upon me once again that nobler title, Robin Hood, the Yeoman." At this a great shout went up, and all the yeomen shook one another's hands for joy. This section is Pyle interpolating from “Robin Hood and the Valiant Knight,” Child Ballad 153. I will let the good stout yeoman at fresnostate.edu summarize: quote:
http://www.fresnostate.edu/folklore/ballads/C153.html quote:Now, had Robin Hood been as peaceful as of old, everything might have ended in smoke, as other such ventures had always done before; but he had fought for years under King Richard, and was changed from what he used to be. It galled his pride to thus flee away before those sent against him, as a chased fox flees from the hounds; so thus it came about, at last, that Robin Hood and his yeomen met Sir William and the Sheriff and their men in the forest, and a bloody fight followed. The first man slain in that fight was the Sheriff of Nottingham, for he fell from his horse with an arrow in his brain ere half a score of shafts had been sped. Many a better man than the Sheriff kissed the sod that day, but at last, Sir William Dale being wounded and most of his men slain, he withdrew, beaten, and left the forest. But scores of good fellows were left behind him, stretched out all stiff beneath the sweet green boughs. “You either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain.” In Robin’s time away from the woodland, he’s lost his virtue; he’s lost his mercy, the kindness that in Pyle’s telling had set him apart from all other outlaws until now. He’s betrayed himself. And what happens to the hero of a victorian-era novel (which this is, even if written in America) who betrays himself, or experiences deep psychological conflict? They get a “Brain Fever.” quote:For three days it held him, and though he strove to fight it off, he was forced to yield at last. Thus it came that, on the morning of the fourth day, he called Little John to him, and told him that he could not shake the fever from him, and that he would go to his cousin, the prioress of the nunnery near Kirklees, in Yorkshire, who was a skillful leech, and he would have her open a vein in his arm and take a little blood from him, for the bettering of his health. Then he bade Little John make ready to go also, for he might perchance need aid in his journeying. So Little John and he took their leave of the others, and Robin Hood bade Will Stutely be the captain of the band until they should come back. Thus they came by easy stages and slow journeying until they reached the Nunnery of Kirklees. This is the much more traditional tale of Robin’s death, as established in “Robin Hood’s Death” (Child 120) and the Gest. As above, it’s possible that there’s even some historical basis for it, and one of the possible historical-Robin candidates may in fact actually have had a female relative at Kirklees Abbey. quote:
quote:So the poor yeoman turned his feet away from the door of the nunnery, and left his master in the hands of the women. But, though he did not come in, neither did he go far away; for he laid him down in a little glade near by, where he could watch the place that Robin abided, like some great, faithful dog turned away from the door where his master has entered. Robin, at the end, like a true Christian, forgives his enemies their trespasses. It’s interesting how this forgiveness parallels King Richard’s forgiveness of the marksman who slew him. quote:Then a silence fell, and Little John sat with Robin Hood's hand in his, gazing out of the open window, ever and anon swallowing a great lump that came in his throat. Meantime the sun dropped slowly to the west, till all the sky was ablaze with a red glory. Then Robin Hood, in a weak, faltering voice, bade Little John raise him that he might look out once more upon the woodlands; so the yeoman lifted him in his arms, as he bade, and Robin Hood's head lay on his friend's shoulder. Long he gazed, with a wide, lingering look, while the other sat with bowed head, the hot tears rolling one after another from his eyes, and dripping upon his bosom, for he felt that the time of parting was near at hand. Then, presently, Robin Hood bade him string his stout bow for him, and choose a smooth fair arrow from his quiver. This Little John did, though without disturbing his master or rising from where he sat. Robin Hood's fingers wrapped lovingly around his good bow, and he smiled faintly when he felt it in his grasp, then he nocked the arrow on that part of the string that the tips of his fingers knew so well. "Little John," said he, "Little John, mine own dear friend, and him I love better than all others in the world, mark, I prythee, where this arrow lodges, and there let my grave be digged. Lay me with my face toward the East, Little John, and see that my resting place be kept green, and that my weary bones be not disturbed." This whole chapter may seem bizarre to a modern reader. It’s not the sort of thing we expect in a children’s book. Disney’s Robin Hood doesn’t end with Robin getting backstabbed by a female rat in a wimple. It makes sense though when understood in context. Pyle includes it because his artistic project here is to make a modern version of the traditional ballads, something that’s academically sound not just entertaining, and this tale is a central pillar of the Robin Hood legend going back to the Gest. But why is this part of the tradition? One thing I haven’t talked about much is where the ballads came from. Child was collecting them in the 19th century, but as we’ve seen, the ballads he collected dated from as far back as the fifteenth. And back in the day, these ballads would not have been seen as “children’s stories” as such -- as above, they were part of the general “rogue book”, chapbook, and “Penny Bloods” literature, closer to today’s “True Crime” stories than anything else. And how do you end a True Crime biography? With the fate of the criminal. And Robin can’t be defeated, that’s lame. He can’t be outwitted by a mark or competitor, either. And his nemeses have all been bishops and priests, that’s his thing, robbing the fat rich clergy. So betrayal by a wicked nun fits all the necessary story beats, especially since these stories are all being told in a post-Catholic Britain where “Popery” is just another word for treason anyway. And Pyle -- and “Robin Hood his Death” -- make sure that Robin here forgives the treacherous nun. He’s a better Christian than she is; his soul in heaven. Every hero dies, but not every hero dies a good man. quote:
 The gravestone Pyle quotes here exists, but is likely a 19th-century fabrication: quote:Robin Hood's Grave is a name given to a monument in Kirklees Park Estate, West Yorkshire, England, 53.6897°N 1.736°W. Robin Hood was traditionally supposed to have been bled to death by the prioress of Kirklees (or Kirkley or kirklea or kirkleys) Priory . The identity of the prioress is the subject of much debate as indeed is the date of Robin Hood's death. (The Prioresses of Kirklees are listed here[1].) The earliest reference to the gravestone is in Philemon Holland's English translation of William Camden's Britannia (1610). In the 18th century, Thomas Gale, Dean of York, claimed to have found a poetic epitaph with the date of death given as 8 November 1247, which is the date in the modern calendar that corresponds to 24 Dekembris in the calendar in use in 1247. The language in which it is written is not classified as the received Middle English of the time, but English was then, as it is now, a language with great diversity and many dialects. It is also worth noting that the grave was restored in 1850. The epitaph reads: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood%27s_Grave The Gest closes thus: Cryst have mercy on his soule, That dyded on the Rode! For he was a good outlawe, And dyde pore men moch god. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 03:51
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Fantastic work, Alloy. This has been a fantastic BotM thread, very possibly the best ever. I'm really looking forward to the cultural history and context effortpost you've been talking about to round out this project and render it complete. PS to what degree is Robin a Christ allegory at the end here Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 04:08
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Discendo Vox posted:Fantastic work, Alloy. This has been a fantastic BotM thread, very possibly the best ever. I'm really looking forward to the cultural history and context effortpost you've been talking about to round out this project and render it complete. Honestly, essentially all of the content that I thought would be separate spin-off posts ended up getting incorporated en passant via the links or comments on each chapter, and I feel like going into all that much more depth would be beyond the scope of the project -- this is about Pyle's Robin Hood, not Robin Hood generally. The one question I haven't really answered, that i thought I would address, is my own personal belief on the historicity -- which, if any, historical Robin Hood was the "real" one. And more and more I just started to think that was the wrong question to ask. There wasn't one single real historical Robin; if any of them were "real," then many of them were. "It's all true. All of it." Too many clearly historical, documented events and personages, like the real "Frere Tuck", get added to the legend well after the legend is already established and popular. What I tend to think is most probable is that various ballads about the exploits of various real outlaw Roberts all just sort of agglomerated together over time, Robert Odo of Locksley and Robyn Hod and so forth getting merged together with the tales of other outlaws like Adam Bell and William of Cloudesly etc. into one great big katamari of story. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:55 on May 21, 2022 |
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Jan 28, 2021 04:20
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Jan 28, 2021 04:36
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Thanks for a great readthrough! EDIT: Some other comments, upon reflection. I love that the ending fight, which would be the climax and probably ending of a more modern story is conveyed in a more medieval style, where the description of a major battle can sometimes be just a sentence or two. The long-running antagonist, who we've gotten to know so well, is instantly killed with no further reflections from any other character. The medieval historian Andrew Ayton has an article called "Military Service and the Development of the Robin Hood Legend in the Fourteenth Century" where he talks about soldiers turning to banditry in Robin Hood fashion (although in a less jolly way). Some of them probably did so out of legal or financial necessity, but Ayton also suggests that some did it because they had difficulty integrating back into civilian life . He describes the following scene from a chronicle talking about King Jean II of France's captivity in England following the Battle of Poitiers. quote:The convoy bringing the captive King John II of France to London in 1357 is apprehended by a crowd of several hundred green-clad men, equipped 'as if they were a band of robbers and evildoers, with bows and arrows, swords and bucklers'. The French king is justifiably dismayed, but the Black Prince assures him that these were Englishmen 'living rough in the forest by choice, and that it was their habit to array themselves so every day. I wonder whether any of those men were at Crecy or Poitiers with the Black Prince, and whether, upon coming back to England, they found that "where once was the bustle of many busy fellows was now the quietness of solitude" ? Grenrow fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 04:51
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Oh, oh, oh, I’ve been there. You go back, and you’re there, but no one else is there, and it’s not the same, and neither are you any more, and you can’t ever go back again, not really. There should be a German word for that;going back to a once-familiar place and wondering if it's changed or you have. Fortunately, good books are still enjoyable regardless of the time passed. This was always one of my favorite books, and I appreciate it even more now. I wish all BotM discussions were this interesting. Thank you for your work; should we meet, I owe you a good stout ale. Grenrow posted:
As much as I like the grand throwdown at the end of the Errol Flynn movie (or the one in Ivanhoe), this is much more in tone with the rest of the book. Especially for a Quaker. quote:I wonder whether any of those men were at Crecy or Poitiers with the Black Prince, and whether, upon coming back to England, they found that "where once was the bustle of many busy fellows was now the quietness of solitude" ? "Killing was our business, and business is...slow." Another way the war comes home.
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Jan 28, 2021 06:38
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Discendo Vox posted:
I don't think it's so much direct allegory as it is "The Christ story was the primary story everyone knew when these tales were first told, so everything ended up reflecting it." Like how all modern fantasy novels have orcs and elves whether or not they intend to be about pre-Adamic man vs. demons. It's just pervasive. Grenrow posted:Thanks for a great readthrough! Turns out that article is online here: http://concours.histegeo.org/Robin_Hood.pdf Cobalt-60 posted:There should be a German word for that;going back to a once-familiar place and wondering if it's changed or you have. Fortunately, good books are still enjoyable regardless of the time passed. This was always one of my favorite books, and I appreciate it even more now. And yeah, battles aren't the point; Robin could have killed the Sheriff at any point in this book, with his super-archery. He didn't want to until now, and it was a mistake when he did, not heroism. As I read back over the thread I'm remembering a number of associations with Tolkien, and I can't help but wonder if this last chapter was a bit of an influence on the Scouring of the Shire. That same attempt to come home, and maybe it works for some, but not for all. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 13:08
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Echoing the praise, this has been a really great and illuminating look at a book I would not have read if not for this online recommendation. I started having seen the title, and swiftly ran ahead of the thread, but was eagerly awaiting each new chapter of commentary.Hieronymous Alloy posted:If you’re in doubt, please heed that warning -- I usually do, and typically stop my re-reads here, and clap to the leaves with a sigh, or return again to the beginning. But this time I am bound to finish this out, so those of us who will, let us take these final few steps together. I find the last chapter deeply affecting, particularly for how it emphasises Little John's love for Robin Hood. The language may be fairly overblown by modern standards but I definitely feel it when they are reunited in Sherwood and when Little John tries to tell Robin (and himself) that he will survive his injuries.
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Jan 28, 2021 20:01
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