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Arist posted:See, I guess I missed the bit where it was implied (or stated outright) that Elidibus is a primal. Where was that? Y'shtola reveals it straight up. It's also the entire point of his plan. He is, effectively, the primal of heroism. By creating more faith in Warriors of Light he ended up empowering himself because he effectively the source for Warrior of Light as a shorthand for heroism, which is why it comes up so often and in multiple shards. (Since both the First and 13th had Warriors of Light too and we clearly see plenty more.)
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Aug 12, 2020 02:21
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Jetrauben posted:I was under the impression Elidibus was mimicking the iconic vision of heroism, not that he had been the OG Hero? He was not the original Warrior of Light, any more than Ifrit or Garuda are the original basis. He was a primal dedicated to spreading heroism as a counterpart to the Ascian's villainy in order to achieve their overall goals though.
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Aug 12, 2020 02:37
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Is there anyone who has done 3.5 but hasn't done the Eden stuff yet? I'm curious if they actually adapt for that or if Thancred and Urianger just get to exist in plot time for it. I know the plot namedrops Gaia if you've already done it.
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Aug 12, 2020 02:51
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Waffleman_ posted:It'll probably just be plot time. Maybe but it'd be a bit odd for someone coming in once everything is done because they could very well do all of Eden before hitting 3.5 in the story and I assume they'll have something to address that
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Aug 12, 2020 03:14
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Chillgamesh posted:That little solo quest rocked but I wonder if they're actually gonna do anything more with G-Warrior or if it was a one-off They talk about it getting upgrades later on so I suspect we'll get at least one or two more Duties with it.
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Aug 12, 2020 03:55
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Its Rinaldo posted:WoL see's how thirsty he is for them and doesn't want to encourage it. The WoL basically ended the expansion running hand in hand with him and giggling.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:38
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corgski posted:I mean, sounds like they just drank their fuel. You have to help them build a brewery which is also used to make fuel.
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Aug 12, 2020 22:07
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Cleretic posted:And she still didn't get character development in either of them (Stormblood was more 'showcasing development she got off-screen'). If anything I'd say G'raha's already ahead of her. I think you missed some large chunks of Shadowbringers.
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Aug 13, 2020 00:57
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Cleretic posted:Oh, I firmly remember Tesleen, but... the game didn't seem to want to. Or at least didn't seem to have a lot to do with that. And outside of that she didn't really get a massive amount of spotlight. ... It gets brought up multiple times throughout the game and is the focus a chunk of the post-MSQ plot. She gets more development time and focus than Y'shtola and Urianger.
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Aug 13, 2020 01:21
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Cleretic posted:Yeah, and I think that's going to start paying dividends soon. If I had to make predictions I think we'll see more of that as a focus in 5.4 and 5.5, possibly even going through the next expansion as her big Thing, but right now we're only in the phase of 'seeds for a solution got planted', they haven't done a whole lot with it yet. It's just been the few scenes with Ga Bu and then like, one cutscene in 5.1 She gets a very personal connection to the Sin Eater plotline which lasts throughout the entire story and pays off right as the plot ends. Y'shtola's plot is A) Getting kidnapped B) Exposition or C) Thirsty Catman, each with a side of snark.
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Aug 13, 2020 02:50
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Y'shtola has already made it clear she has no interest in little suns.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:26
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Its Rinaldo posted:So is like Elidibus' soul just chilling in the Crystal Tower forever? I'm not sure how cool i am with that especially since it's somewhat ambiguous if he was a kid and the last moments we saw him was weeping for all those he lost and failed. The problem is that is the only way to actually kill an Ascian is to either seal them or effectively destroy them. Anything less and they just come back, which is probably doubly true for Elidibus because he wasn't a real Ascian, he was a Primal.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:53
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Transporting bread across shards this patch had me thinking about aetherology questions It seems like you can basically bring anything across, it just depends on if it is capable of remaining together after you do so. Living beings are a lot more complex than bread and thus are at a greater risk of dissolving. As long as you think of it as part of you then it should be able to come across. The real question is: How does your Chocobo get across.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:00
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Its Rinaldo posted:So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him. From what I understand: Unsundered Ascians just return to the rift (the place the WoL sends you during the fight) where they chill out until they can make or possess a new body. As long as their body is killed they will effortlessly return assuming they have an option. (See: Emet-Selch) To kill an unsundered Ascian you need to not just kill them but effectively destroy their soul because they are so powerful that is the only option. You effectively have to erase them or they will come back. Elidibus isn't trapped but actively erased (IIRC they even mention his memories not coming along for the ride) and while the aether that made up his primal form might still be in the tower it isn't him anymore. Jetrauben posted:Good question. I feel like it's more satisfying if it's actually him, though? It is and isn't him. As we are told the shades of the Ancients were created by Emet and while they seemed to retain at least a portion of their own personalities they were shaped by him. From what we're shown the Emet during the big fight is Emet's shade of Emet. So it is really him in that it is him creating a version of himself, but it is not really him as it is a fading copy/clone. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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Aug 13, 2020 21:08
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Jetrauben posted:It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think? Again I may be misremembering but from what I can recall The are Unsundered Ascians and then varying degrees of Sundered Ascians. Stronger ones can reconstitute themselves by possessing other's bodies while weaker ones are basically killable but are replaced by grabbing one of their shards from another star. Lahabrea did not need to possess new bodies but chose to do so anyway which apparently made him a total loser and actively weakened him. It also makes Emet's behavior make a lot more sense when you realize that the only other true Unsundered Ascian was Lahabrea. Can you imagine how much that must have sucked?
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Aug 13, 2020 21:15
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Mister Olympus posted:I feel like whatever happened to make Zenos is a purely technological expression of the process of rejoining an ascian. Zenos is a weird case in that it seems like for whatever reason he was born less-Sundered than most other people. He's always been freakishly strong and apparently also has always had dreams of the End of Days which is part of why he was a nihilistic shithead. He just tossed a an artificial Echo on top of that. One thing they seem to strongly be doing is associating Zenos with the Beast of the Apocalypse, and the fact that he never achieved a natural Echo despite seeing the end of days in his dreams on a regular basis makes me wonder if they're building up to a reveal that Zenos is in some way an embodiment of the malformed beasts that ended the previous civilization. It would explain why he is so freakishly powerful to some degree.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:27
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:So what exactly happened in the Heroes' Gauntlet, then? From what it was described rather than summoning the people themselves he basically opened a portal and went "I am a hero fighting the FORCES OF DARKNESS, lend me your energy" and when heroes did so he effectively molded those into Hero Egis and send them to kill you. I doubt any of them are permanently scarred or anything, they just tried to help with a Spirit Bomb only for it turn out to be an rear end in a top hat in charge.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:43
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:There's a line somewhere that implies Zodiark is imprisoned in the moon, or is the moon. Since Zodiark is sundered, I'd expect it's a different moon for each shard, but it's all a reflection of the same one from the source. It is stated in the Minfilia cutscene where she talks to you about the history of the battle between the two and also directly stated in the lorebook.
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Aug 14, 2020 02:00
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YES bread posted:everyone is so sick of villains with understandable motivations and tragic backstories. "please" theyre crying out, "just let me bunch a dude in a nazi uniform!!!" They tried than and then a bunch of people started to agree with the guy in the Nazi uniform so hard they need to make a plotline about his children dying because of his actions to drive home how wrong he was.
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Aug 16, 2020 20:01
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Onmi posted:So, Shiva Unreal battle report for the day. The first two runs ended at 100% when people left without even starting to fight. The second run ended at 80% when the concept of "Turn the sword" and "add phase" passed over people wearing i500 gear. That is really strange. The enrage requirement didn't seem particularly harsh to me. I even had a run with a couple of deaths where we still didn't come close to Enrage. Was someone not DPSing properly or something?
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Aug 17, 2020 06:09
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8 seconds for the entire party is a small price to play for trolling a tank
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Aug 17, 2020 17:46
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They might as well end the game there then because god knows if we could survive the blow of being beaten by a dude named Fandaniel in the crappiest body imaginable after we bodied both the last and strongest Ascian and their goddamn primal.
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Aug 18, 2020 01:59
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Eimi posted:Feo Ul, like Ryne is too cool to be left behind. The entire point of becoming the Warrior of Darkness was the reveal that "Dark" and "Light" mean different things to different people. You are a hero of light to some people but to the Ascians you are a horrifying destroyer who is killing their chance of reviving their lost people. Elidibus wasn't just playacting. He genuinely viewed himself as a hero and you as the villain. Becoming the Warrior of Darkness didn't mean Being Evil but having to stand against people who, in their own mind, are just as justified as you in what they do and who fight just as hard.
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Aug 18, 2020 21:47
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Sinteres posted:I think switching out Varis to bring Zenos back as the big bad is my least favorite plot twist in the game. Fighting the Empire as led by someone who actually gave a poo poo about it seemed fine to me. I think it was necessary for it to break because the Empire was just a long term Ascian plot and it descending into civil war once the Ascians are gone makes a ton of sense considering the Garlean philosophy of fetishizing strength. Zenos is the perfect encapsulation of the Garlean ideal. He is one of the strongest beings alive and can enforce his will through that strength and it ends up turning to poo poo because he doesn't care about anything but a fight. Varis being slain by the embodiment of his philosophy (as well as his own son and kind of an Ascian) is the perfect way for him to go out. It sucked when we didn't get to fight him but they resolved that.
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Aug 21, 2020 17:54
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Hunter Noventa posted:The last thing we need is Zenos hijacking Sephirot, because with the extra arms he could use all his katanas at once. Here me out. A power multi armed fighter who likes to collect weapons.
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Aug 21, 2020 18:57
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Onmi posted:I am a bit disappointed because Zenos's comment about not giving a poo poo about ruling and Varis's horrified look that he was about to be killed by his son, not for anything like power or greed, but simply because Varis was in the way of Zenos getting to fight the WoL again. Then again it's easy to take it back as Zenos is being forced onto the throne by Fandaniel and he's so utterly bored because he just does not care. I think the major issue is that The WoL was basically faffing about in another world so much that Zenos had no real way to just force her to fight him. With the end of the most recent patch presumably that will stop being an issue.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:26
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I guess we know what the theme to Eden Raid's Great King Moggle Mog will be.
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Aug 23, 2020 18:37
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I fully expect to get some Zeromus thing when we actually go to the Moon.
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Sep 14, 2020 22:31
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Vitamean posted:I'm glad for them and all, but aren't the Ascians still active in the alternate timeline? My honest bet is that they hosed up with Black Rose. Black Rose specifically targets aether and while we don't know what it does to Ascians it is entirely possible it wrecked Emet-Selch's poo poo. With him gone you're basically in the same position as now maybe plus a Warrior of Light
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Sep 17, 2020 19:30
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A big part of it is that it involves things Ascians just can't or won't understand, including a weird primal who broke rules they assumed were unbreakable being reverse-engineered by 'lesser beings' using technology from space aliens. They are so focused on being the Best Society that it genuinely never occurred to them that other people could do things they can't.
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Sep 17, 2020 20:34
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Badger of Basra posted:So if I'm understanding Gabranth's plan correctly, it's to stay away from Garlemald until it inevitably tears itself apart, then go back, take it over, and do the Empire, But Good? He basically seems to be trying to solidify power so he can clean up in the aftermath."But Good" doesn't really seem to match his actual actions though.
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Oct 18, 2020 01:14
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Chillgamesh posted:Wouldn't the Hydaelyn equivalent of Elidibus be Minfilia? So our Venat descendant/heritor is Ryne Minfilia wasn't anyone special except for having the Echo AFAIK. She ended up becoming The Voice because she happened to fall into the Lifestream at the right time and place.
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Dec 3, 2020 23:06
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:They're saving Gaius for Diamond so that the final fight where the last and most innocent of Gaius's While I'm sure Emerald's pilot is screwed I'm pretty sure they're going to have at least one of them survive. Maybe you use G-Warrior to fight Diamond and in doing so get her out but it destroyed G-Warrior in the process, and you end up having to fight Weirdo McPedogarlean as he hops into the Diamond. FFXIV can be grim but it never quite leans on the path of "and there is no hope and everything is terrible forever."
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Dec 4, 2020 03:54
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multijoe posted:I don't think even her biggest stans have ever called Yotsuyu 'morally grey' (amnesia arc not withstanding) People absolutely have and for fairly justifiable reasons. Yotsuyu's behavior was terrible and unforgivable but it was action taken against a country that did terrible and unforgivable things to her. She lived a life of immense abuse from every angle and had to struggle to remain a person instead of an object and her cruelty was a mirror of the cruelty inflicted upon her by both the Garleans and Domans. She spent her entire life in misery and suffering and the only time she had some realm of control is when she inflicted pain right back. It is absolutely coherently understandable why she behaves the way she did and why she felt she had no other choice. The ongoing themes of people trapped in terrible situations and struggling to find some way to control the world around them is one of the biggest parts of FFXIV. For most villains (minus voidsent, elf-popes and capitalists) their behavior is usually built upon having no hope and no other way out. Most of what the WoL does isn't slaying gods but finding solutions that allow people to escape that eternal prison and it's usually treated as some form of tragedy when they can't.
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Dec 6, 2020 04:20
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yes they are. Any perceived justice is long gone. Nidhogg has no other reason to perpetuate the war, and Yotsuyu is just bullying the weakest members of society. That isn't really the case for either. Nidhogg does not exist on the same time scale as Eorzeian races. What is a long time to even the longest lived of them like the Viera is still basically an eyeblink to him. He is absolutely wrong in that he's motivated out of suffering and pain but he isn't Evil For Evil's Sake. He was betrayed, his sister murdered, and his eyes gouged out and the people who he is fighting are still using his eyes to kill his brethren. (The fact that they are doing this in what they feel is self-defense doesn't change the fact that to him they're perfectly glad to keep using the stolen symbol of murder.) The Dragoon 80 questline specifically emphasizes how Nidhogg was not a heartless beast who loved being evil. Nidhogg has absolutely lost himself to his anger but from his perspective the pain is still incredibly fresh. Yotsuyu is acting out of pain and desire for revenge but more to the point she's following the only examples she ever had. She acts cruel because as far as she has been shown cruelty is the only way to survive and thrive. That isn't to say she doesn't take satisfaction in taking revenge or that she isn't supremely hosed up but it's kind of critical to note that responding to cruelty with violence is the only thing that worked in her life. I think it is important to note that a lot of what she does is a mix of true feeling and performative. She has had to fill roles her entire life and the role the Garleans thrust her into demanded that behavior. This doesn't mean she is forgiven for what she did but her entire post-patch plotline focuses on the idea that she isn't some cruel evil malicious being, she is someone who has been manipulated and forced by every side. That is why her Primal form is quite literally two-faced, based around suffering, and has a song about her desperately trying to battle against the people trying to make her bend to their will. Neither is Evil For Evil's Sake. Both are broken and damaged and threats to everyone around them but not because they are evil. They are victims. Someone can be both a victim and a victimizer and in both their cases they are.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:06
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:is pretty textbook for evil's sake. Again, that only works if you ignore the fact that she was acting as a Garlean viceroy and we specifically saw scenes where they made it clear her behavior was at least partially expected. You can correctly say that she chose to save herself over saving other lives but that is an end result of being one of the forgotten and abused members of a society. She had no loyalty because she was used and abused for her entire life while the people in charge ignored her plight. Remember that she was working under Zenos who she (probably rightly) feared the poo poo out of. He's the biggest and scariest memory that pops up during the sequence in her primal fight and she was obviously scared shitless of him in basically every scene they are in and even the slightest sign of failure seemed likely to make Zenos kill her.
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Dec 6, 2020 19:15
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Nobody is expected to kill peasants for no reason in Zenos's Ala Mhigo. And I doubt Zenos cares at all what she does to them. She's taking out (her legitimate grievances) on completely unrelated people that basically border on her situation. And enjoys it. You're absolutely wrong there. One of the things Zenos prizes is a hunger to hunt/kill/etc. This is something he openly states to both Yotsuyu and Fordola. When he talks to Fordola he is more upset at denying that she wants revenge than he is at her failing. He even says he'll pluck her eyes out if he doesn't see the hunger in them and knowing Zenos I doubt he's lying. Furthermore he's pretty clear that he wants Yotsuyu to act that way for the purpose of creating interesting prey. ("Let there be savage beasts baying for blood, and not hollow-eyed prey cowering in the dark, or there will be no joy in this hunt.") That is in fact a major point of what he does. Again, Zenos says it directly to her. " Do you understand why I appointed you to act in my stead? You, whose only accomplishment was to whisper the right words in the right ear? Because of your petty hatreds.They render you the perfect instrument to bleed your kinsmen of hope─to make an example of Doma, such as was ordered." She was specifically chosen because Zenos wanted her to treat people that way and when it seems like she is failing at creating what he wanted he basically tells her to fix it or die. That doesn't excuse her behavior but it wasn't entirely of her own will. She was ordered to do it and was chosen because she hated Doma enough to be willing to, and the moment it seems like she's failing she's threatened with death. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 19:24
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Yeah, but that pimp wasn't a starving fisherman in some backwater village. The fact a prominent member of society like that is still alive by the time the revolution came about shows she didn't much care to take revenge against the people and institutions that wronged her. Nor is she interested in doing anything regarding systematic oppression. She just wants to cause people to suffer. He was specifically in a Garlean prison before that IIRC. And how much she wants people to suffer versus how much she is demanded to make people suffer is a question. I feel like something that needs to be emphasized with Yotsuyu is that she is pretty much always acting a part, right up until the moment of her death. She is always what someone else wants her to be. That does not excuse her behavior but the only time someone interacted with her who wasn't trying to turn her into a tool was Gotetsu. We have no clear idea of how much is her and how much is her acting because that is a big portion of what she did. She was performative and took on different roles, which is why her final act is to take on the role of a monster to be slain. You can compare how she acts during the fall of the Doman Castle versus how she acts later and it's pretty clear that she's putting on at least some of a part, calling herself a witch and a villain And to some degree Hein recognizes this because rather than dismissing her he says he'll remember what she said. Again, this doesn't mean she isn't a bad person or isn't responsible for her choices, but to pain her as someone who just likes suffering requires ignoring the fact that when we first see her she's acting the part that Zenos wants her to play. Think about how she acts right before she becomes Tsukuyomi. She's right back to acting in the role she did before. And remember that it wasn't he being told what happened that changed her back. It was the reveal that her parents were taking her back and intended to sell her again. She returned to the cruel malicious personality only once it became clear that she was going to be forced into the same position again. Her actions are in response to cruelties taken against her. I feel like it's kind of important to note that she never had a choice. She was passed from one abuser to another and had no reasonable way to escape because her society wouldn't recognize her or allow her to escape until she ended up with Zenos who basically told her to be his instrument or die. The only time she remotely had a choice was was when she had amnesia and that lasted until the horrific idea that she was just going to be enslaved and sold off again and then she got stabby. This isn't just "she had a bad childhood" but "she was systemtically abused for the entirety of her life and the one time she escaped from her abusers they showed up again and openly planned to abuse her further." ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Dec 6, 2020 |
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Dec 6, 2020 20:11
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a cartoon duck posted:i suspect part of the problem is that the Doma storyline wants to pay lipservice to the idea that old Doma wasn't a perfect utopia, but the storyline is also all about putting the heir of old Doma on the throne when his only claim to legitimacy is being born a prince. if they went even a tiny bit harder on Doma being poo poo to its own citizens, then restoring old Doma would suddenly feel a lot worse, especially when before and after both Ishgard and Ala Mhigo have this whole "to learn from the sins of the past we need to make a clean break rather than cling to past glories" thing going on. Eh, this isn't quite right. Hein absolutely acknowledges and recognizes the flaws of old Doma and part of Doman Reconstruction is finding out ways to avoid those mistakes again. They pretty bluntly make it clear that Hein wants to recognize the old country but not cause the same mistakes and even his willingness to let Tsuyu stay was colored by a desire to try to rectify some part of what the previous country had been. There's a lot of dialogue focused around it but it doesn't get as much attention as Ala Mhigo because the bulk of Doman stuff is sidequest material instead. It absolutely deserved more attention but so goes the issue of Stormblood's split.
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Dec 6, 2020 20:19
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Badger of Basra posted:I agree with the take that Yotsuyu is not just some innately evil crazy person but my read of the finale of her story is that remembering who she is and what she did does cause her to snap back to how she was before. The thing is that she has a moment before that where she desperately apologizes. It is only when confronted with her parents that she swaps back to "I'm going to loving murder everyone." It isn't finding out what she did or even people accusing her of what she did that changes her. It's being told she's going to be sold off again.
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Dec 7, 2020 00:39
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