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I do wonder if the Twelve are "just" the Convocation, or if the Convocation were in turn appealing to the same powers that the Twelve represent.
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Aug 12, 2020 02:06
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I was under the impression Elidibus was mimicking the iconic vision of heroism, not that he had been the OG Hero?
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Aug 12, 2020 02:29
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FrozenGoldfishGod posted:As I started doing the 'goodbye Norvrandt!' quests, I realized something that made it all the more poignant. To be fair, Y'shtola does mention she intends to work on a way to cross worlds again.
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Aug 12, 2020 05:12
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Groggy nard posted:I am concerned by how easily Graha decided to Rand Al'thor his past self but it all worked out in the end so lets not question it any further Exarch!G'raha: "Hey Young Me you wanna fuse and become a timeless-yet-young-savior-of-nations-and-worlds?" Young!G'raha: "Ballin." To be fair it worked out pretty good with Ardbert too, and Ardbert may not even be the same gender or species as your WoL. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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Aug 12, 2020 10:00
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Rand Brittain posted:I feel like Unukalhai got the Wrathion treatment, in that he was locked in a room until all the events he could have been relevant to had passed, and now G’raha has eaten his potential role in the Scions. There is the inevitable Adventures in the Void when it comes up. Maybe we'll get Cyella as a buddy too.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:22
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Zomborgon posted:As someone who played SMN first, it was neat to see the name "ink mage" as the logical equivalent title for a DPS arcanist class that didn't end up drawing on primal power. I kinda do tho.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:26
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Quite a flex for Ishikawa to go "kill my characters, will you? Well how about this?"
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Aug 12, 2020 18:51
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Draynar posted:We killed all the strong ones though, So only little bitches are left for us to slap around. And Zenos who is edgelord version of us. (Really getting to point where even game is acknowledging no one can actually beat us in power level and we're going to have to have like teams coming at us and we're now the raid boss) Hydaelyn doesn't have power levels. The WoL isn't Goku.
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Aug 12, 2020 18:56
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corgski posted:Yeah Azem was always gendered as a woman for me as well, which threw me for a second reading other peoples speculation. I suppose ancient timeless beings don't really have genders as such, however. Reincarnation makes gender basically fluid. Even if your WoL is a woman, Ardbert is Azem too just as much as you are, and he's definitely a man. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Power levels are canon, this is the only explanation for the end of Act 1 in Stormblood. Also What I mean is more that like, the WoL isn't just gonna tank lesser foes' attacks; some jackass with a sword is totally capable of killing the WoL if they get sloppy.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:15
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erenoyo posted:I mean we did kinda do that in the cutscene before the WoL trial ...point.
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Aug 12, 2020 20:18
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hobbesmaster posted:Emet Selch in SHB also makes a bit more sense now. He was the last ancient after we cut through the others - Elidibus was a primal and wasn’t a real person anymore. It makes the entire plot of SHB some sort of elaborate suicide by WoL. Hell, consider how he was introduced to us. "I had earned my rest." Emet hasn't enjoyed being alive for a while now. I'm not sure if it was a conscious plot, but I definitely feel like by the time we reached Amaurot he was basically ok with throwing the dice, even if he couldn't consciously or emotionally give up until you took the choice away from him.
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Aug 13, 2020 05:19
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Regy Rusty posted:I think the crystal was a backup rather than his real plan. I'm pretty sure he still wanted to beat us and was genuinely surprised when we pulled out stuff he couldn't see coming like Ardbert. Yeah, same, I think Emet was basically in a hopeless death-or-glory mindset rather then actually wanting to lose.
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Aug 13, 2020 05:27
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Mad Wack posted:Anyone understand why Amaurot warped to the surface outside of Eulmore for the starshower that led to the heroes gauntlet? I will accept Anime as an answer but I was wondering if there was more to it. Probably just an illusion to reinforce the Past-Life-Triggering.
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Aug 13, 2020 05:34
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Hogama posted:Even people who didn't have the Echo triggered said they felt a palpable sense of loss upon seeing the image of Amaurot.. I read that as implying that everybody has souls tied to Amaurot, just not necessarily the Echo?
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Aug 13, 2020 05:53
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There's also a lot of ambiguity about whether the soul, as in the aetheric mass of aether animating a person's body, corresponds to their consciousness, which is often described as passing on to a different realm in death. Elidibus the person is almost certainly dead and at rest, it's just the equivalent of the aetheric atoms that stored his personhood are now within the Crystal Tower. Hades was capable of summoning the actual shade of a person from the Underworld, which - given that those souls are presumably long since both fragmented and reborn - implies that the mind isn't synonymous with the aether that holds it. People use up aether all the time. Also keep in mind the Crystal Tower uses aether. It isn't just a giant battery, aether needs to flow through the world naturally. That aether's gonna be scattered out into the world again just as say, the aether that stored Lahabrea's consciousness is now dispersed with Thordan's destruction. That said, yeah, I'm pretty sure Elidibus was a child, originally, and just never could entirely grow up since he was a primal now.
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Aug 13, 2020 20:59
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ImpAtom posted:It seems like you can basically bring anything across, it just depends on if it is capable of remaining together after you do so. Living beings are a lot more complex than bread and thus are at a greater risk of dissolving. As long as you think of it as part of you then it should be able to come across. Yeah, like, from a cosmic standpoint the difference between a living person's body and a dead person's body is relatively small. It's the same entity, just changed a bit. It's also worth noting that Y'shtola seems to be fairly confident she can one day develop a way to cross the Rift, and I don't see why she'd fail. One thing I appreciate is that in FF14 technology and magic advances, and advances a lot. Its Rinaldo posted:So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him. His aether will be spat out of the Crystal Tower sooner or later. We basically just fed his unconscious soul aether to the aetheric equivalent of a woodchipper until it couldn't hold together.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:01
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Normally killing them lets them reform in the lifestream, because we don't kill their soul. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and now Elidibus have had their souls so irrevocably destroyed that even if they find themselves back in the lifestream, they're basically raw materials again. And yet a shade of Emet shows up in the trial! Suggesting, as I said, that the aether of the soul and the consciousness of the soul, the imprint memory and self leave behind, aren't really the same thing. Hell, pixies explicitly say they don't actually see aether as the same thing as the person it belonged to. An Lad is not synonymous entirely with Titania, even if they share enough to be seen as a reincarnation/echo. And Alphinaud(?) says ghosts are the living imprints of dead people's memories and consciousness, yet are presumably separate from the soul-body. It sounds, to me, like "soul" in Hydaelyn is more like...the spirit-body for your mind, the container it's stored in on the intangible plane. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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Aug 13, 2020 21:03
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Was it him, or was it an imprint he put in the stone? Good question. I feel like it's more satisfying if it's actually him, though? I mean we seem to be Azem enough to count as a degree of continuity. We identify as Azem to a degree, we grieve for Amaurot, we even seem to have some sense of responsibility and ties to Ardbert's life. We are, and we are not. Reincarnation and personhood are complicated! But yeah, the Ascian/immortal paradigm seems to be basically "your soul-body is strong enough it doesn't need a meat suit to hold itself together anymore, which means to kill you properly you need to have your soul-body broken down." It's actually quite consistent, really - primals and even voidsent likewise seem to have this super durable, dense soul-body, which is why they can jump across meatsuits and survive physical deaths.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:08
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ImpAtom posted:From what I understand: It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think?
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Aug 13, 2020 21:10
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ImpAtom posted:Again I may be misremembering but from what I can recall What happened with Lahabrea is also very similar to what happened with Elidibus. He went through bodies without changing them to his own, and therefore identities, like candy, presumably because he either felt their identities were useful or because he just didn't care. The end result was a man whose identity was falling apart, leaving nothing but a cartoon villain. A thing I like is that Hydaelyn seems to assume both a soul and a body have an imprinted/stored identity in their memory.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:30
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Was there anything in game associating Azem with the Hydaelyn summoning crew? They objected to summoning Zodiark, but were they linked with Venat and co at all, or did they just head out to do their own thing? It sounds more like Azem didn't really oppose either group. They wanted to presumably go off and murderhobo the Sound itself. We have apparently always been a murderhobo at heart.
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Aug 13, 2020 21:32
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:So what exactly happened in the Heroes' Gauntlet, then? Sounds like he basically did flash-imprints of bits of people's souls, yeah. Presumably fixable or recoverable, but it's why none of them seem to have concrete identities beyond vague signifiers of their heroic deeds and pasts. I'm actually fairly confident we'll see the Necromancer again given how big a deal they made of her; the Thief is transparently just Locke from FF6. It's a pretty cute reminder that the other Shards have their own heroic sagas though. Orcs and Ostriches posted:My take was that since Elidibus was just a primal, he wasn't the real Elidibus to begin with. He was both Zodiark's and the peoples' wish for a saviour, and ultimately, that doesn't require memories or identities at all. He was the hero, he was salvation, and nothing else mattered. I don't think it had anything to do with body hopping like Lahabrea. His original summoners are also gone, so he's powered by the mixed prayers and needs of other scattered people. My running theory is that the Fourteen are tied to the same powers that the Twelve embody, since the Twelve do appear to wield concrete power in the world. After all there's seemingly a whole other galaxy or even universe beyond Hydaelyn, and the Fourteen are all tied to constellations or celestial bodies. And aether is universal, as indicated by Omega and Midgardsormr (and Ultima) all wielding it. Hell, for all we know the whole point of Sigmascape - which they make a big deal out of it being actually a different world and not just some mythic ancient era of Hydaelyn's past being referenced like the Deltascape or Omegascape - is that the world of FF6 actually exists in the cosmos of Hydaelyn and not just "beyond the Rift." Although, is the Rift space? Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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Aug 13, 2020 21:41
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Perfect. Yeah, although it doesn't sound like there was hostility at first, either. The sad thing about the Convocations is that everyone involved totally understood why everyone was doing what they were doing. I could totally imagine that Azem absolutely refused to be party to the mass sacrifice of the people or of a child.
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Aug 13, 2020 22:01
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Hunter Noventa posted:The Rift where the Ascians hang out is, I think a more metaphysical place between the shards. Space is space, and both Omega and Midgardsormr crossed it to the Source sometime after the Sundering. Well they refer to Omega as having "crossed the Rift."
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Aug 13, 2020 22:25
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Waffleman_ posted:I'm going to assume that the .4 and .5 dungeons are gonna both be on the Source because it's not like we can bring trusts into the First anymore. Which begs a fascinating question: will Ryne be removed from the "canon" Trust lineup? Or are we going to pull out our Azem Signature Spell to call her over?
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Aug 14, 2020 22:14
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Mad Wack posted:they need to add more stickers, stickers finally made gpose worth it for me Personally what I would really like is an ability to change the weather.
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Aug 15, 2020 19:09
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YES bread posted:everyone is so sick of villains with understandable motivations and tragic backstories. "please" theyre crying out, "just let me bunch a dude in a nazi uniform!!!" There was literally an editorial claiming this not long ago. Heh.
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Aug 16, 2020 19:47
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Cythereal posted:Considering that he was the Emissary before he was the hart of Zodiark, I'm guessing 'Emissary' was a position of spiritual leadership among the Amaurotines, and it's not unknown for religious leaders to be young if not children when they're perceived to be special and enlightened. And in his defense, Elidibus was an extremely dedicated leader, and the Convocation members do mention people doubted his abilities at first. It's also worth considering that creation magic - and primals - come from the mind of those who create them. Zodiark was an impossibly vast ask as creations go, presumably without any precursor in their bank of ideal concepts. Who can better envision a wondrous savior who fixes everything and restores the world "back to normal" without considering disastrous concepts and side effects than the simple, creative imagination of a child? In a world where the ability to create life and substance comes directly from imagination and philosophical concepts, a child's imagination is a unique asset.
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Aug 17, 2020 20:39
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cheetah7071 posted:I could see some people being annoyed at the idea that the WoL has no longer "earned" their accomplishments, because they were born special, but I think that's a misreading of the situation I mean as I've said before I think this whole framing of the situation doesn't quite work within the context of reincarnation. We are as much Azem as Ardbert. We have always been thus. There is no beginning of end, just changes from one incarnation to the next; continuity clearly exists in some subconscious form. No, the Warrior of Light is not a "Self-made" hero, but that's because self-made heroes, in the context of a reincarnation universe, don't really exist. And certainly don't when one considers the strong themes of legacy, picking up what was left to you by prior generations, etc. We've never been presented as just a self-made hero, and honestly the idea we're just Special Because - the "mightiest of your kind" - Of Will to Power isn't really any more egalitarian. cheetah7071 posted:Hydaelyn is still better than Zodiark in the current status quo because Zodiark still wants to do some more genocides, and Hydaelyn was satisfied with just the one. I don't expect us to actually turn on her any time soon for that reason, even if we break off our alliance. Maybe once Zodiark is dead Idk, I think assuming that Hydaelyn has some malignant desire of her own is questionable. She hasn't been wholly honest with us, but she hasn't really lied, either. We don't quite have a specific unbiased account of the original Sundering and what caused it. Hell, I'm not even sure I'd call the Sundering a genocide - from Emet's metaphor, it seems to me more like all the various younger life-forms spawned by the Amaurotines just got forked into multiple worlds unaware of the others. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 23:47
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Doublestep posted:I could see us renouncing Hydaelyn or needing to reckon with her being a primal but i think it’ll be less “welp time to kill My god, now” and more of a forced hand scenario or something, if we do need to kill her. the game has repeatedly shown us how primals damage everything around them by existing im curious to see if she fits that same category It's complicated because, like, we've only ever known a world where Hydaelyn exists, and she also to be fair doesn't seem to really exist on the material plane? Like she seems to spend most of her time chilling in the aetherial sea, and if anything shoots energy into us to dunk on jerks even harder. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 06:14
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Cleretic posted:That's like saying the pixies failed to create a flourishing economy. Emet literally never even tried to make any of the empires he built 'healthy', he built those empires up specifically so they would go on to destroy the world. Sometimes multiple times. To be fair, I'm not actually entirely sure that's true. Emet seem to have had a very indecisive attitude towards his nation-states; whether it's just because of the scope of time involved in the span between "prosperous empire" and "dissolving catastrophe engine" he seems to have taken pains to build empires he found at least somewhat personally appealing. For example, in his guise as Solus, encouraging the arts and creativity in Garlemald doesn't exactly suit its fascistic purposes. If nothing else, since Emet presumably perceives time like a Spoken and not a dragon, he doesn't exactly go into centuries-long naps, so he's gotta spend time in the places he builds. Emet seems to have repeatedly tried to go native, in the same way that Elidibus seems to have encouraged and posed as heroes throughout the history of the various Shards even if he was not actually the original Warrior of Light. (He explicitly says he's imitating the Warrior of Light.) Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 18:56
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Its Rinaldo posted:He was napping for fifteen years! Sure, but like, a lot of Garlemald's whole deal seems to have initially involved a lot of genuine improvement for the lives of individual Garleans, and of course Allag for a very long time was a genuinely thriving and prosperous empire which bettered the lives of a lot of people before degenerating into its latter decadence of monstrous tyranny. Doesn't excuse the evil fascistic stages, but it implies Emet was doing a lot of genuine nation-building as well as "setting up unwieldy nightmare state prone to collapse." You need a prosperous stage before your empire can fall apart sufficiently nastily. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Aug 25, 2020 |
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Aug 25, 2020 19:23
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Weren't those empires, regardless of whatever benefits they provided in the interim, expressly designed to end in mass death and destruction in order to exploit the omnicide of an entire shard Oh absolutely, I'm not saying Emet was good or anything, so much as he seems to have been indecisive and indulged himself in trying to build little reflections of things he valued in the interim stages. Isn't it canon that he's periodically wavered and tried to go native?
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Aug 25, 2020 19:36
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why did Lahabrea make a fem-ifrit
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Sep 10, 2020 22:14
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Gruckles posted:Does the Amalj'aa culture even have the concept of genders? I think they're supposed to have a concept of gender but almost no sexual dimorphism to speak of? In other news, I find the notion they keep playing at with "concepts" in relation to creation magic fascinating. It's like it's a persistent pseudo-soul or essence to build a summoned entity around? And now they've confirmed there's some of 'em just lying around ready to use?
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Sep 10, 2020 23:12
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Mulva posted:No, a concept is exactly what it sounds like. Literally an idea. This means more to them because their magic is thinking about something and making it real. A detailed enough concept is enough for them to create something. And yeah, that's what the Architect is in charge of. Concepts, their use and their storage. What concepts are implemented and how, what concepts are kept in case they need to be used later, and what concepts should never be released. What I mean is that concepts seem to be persistent and stored in physical vessels. Coherent platonic ideals.
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Sep 11, 2020 03:27
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Gruckles posted:After Zodiark rewrote the rules of reality and stopped the calamities, but before Hydaelyn splintered everything, new non-Ancient mortal souls started appearing in the world. The Ascians' endgoal was to sacrifice these new souls as an exchange with Zodiark, so that the Ancients who sacrificed themselves to form him the first time could be reclaimed. While the Hydaelyn faction thought that wasn't right, and sacrificed themselves to create her and prevent that. So now everyone is sundered, but not all are former-Ancients. Yeah, I'd assume not every part of a former Ancient necessarily gets the Echo part.
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Sep 13, 2020 06:12
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FFXIV doesn't have many villains who are Evil in the sense of being fundamentally bad people. Even Gaius, evil in his actions and legacy, is ultimately a man with a powerful capacity for goodness who made bad decisions. Hell, the Ascians in general are this - they are not evil in the sense of absolute objects of repugnance, they are originally good people who made really bad decisions and did monstrous things. The difference is subtle but important, I think.
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Sep 14, 2020 18:41
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Eimi posted:Zenos is evil though because he's a piece of poo poo through and through. In a warped sort of way, if we assume that the Amaurotines aren't just totally full of poo poo and the unsundered had senses and capacities sundered souls have dulled, I could totally see why Zenos is a solipsistic monster - he's got more unsundered essence in him than most folks around him. In a way, he is "more real" than the people surrounding him, if you buy the whole Sundered/Unsundered divide, and finds it difficult to consider anyone else around him as a full person who matters.
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Sep 14, 2020 18:53
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Mister Olympus posted:tbh the consistent implications that Zenos isn't really ensouled or human as we understand it are the worst things about him. I get that it's a reference to Sephiroth and that by the time you actually meet Sephiroth in present-day in FF7 he's stopped being human entirely, but from the perspective we have now, especially with that recent bonus story that just has kid zenos as in a very hostile home environment and somewhat autistic-coded, only to turn that into why he's inhuman/monstrous, not using it for pity or anything. There's a lot more to be revealed and said about him, and I'm ready for them to turn it around but it's written super awkward, just like the warriors of darkness felt like a really weird sidetrack during the heavensward patch cycle itself while you were waiting the story out. I mean, I can see Zenos as neuroatypical, but I'm not really sure that it's why he's a bad person or solipsistic. There's several other characters who are neuroatypical-coded, no?
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Sep 14, 2020 20:02
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