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cenotaph posted:It's a question of at what point you draw the line. If Joe is acceptable, is the next conservative acceptable? Is their inclusion of Kasich signaling that they're willing to be flexible on abortion and LGBT rights? When does the rightward march end? (it doesn't) Is it? If you have a choice between two things that are on the wrong side of the line, is there never value in choosing the one that is nearer? Edit: Jesus what a terrible snipe. gently caress Joe Biden, for the record.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:03
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TehSaurus posted:Is it? If you have a choice between two things that are on the wrong side of the line, is there never value in choosing the one that is nearer? I think that's too abstract a question to answer since individual circumstances matter greatly. But in this instance legitimizing conservative democrats has only led to more conservative democrats so I would say no.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:20
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Everyone argues too narrowly, just say America is a fascist colonial power and has been since 9/11 so you choose not to participate in the pageantry of our sham elections and then refuse to engage further. You can still vote Howie if you want I guess.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:43
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Also individual votes simply DO NOT MATTER on a national level and it's this bizarre sham we all do every 4 years where we act like our own vote is going to be the deciding one. Just don't vote for rapists!
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Aug 22, 2020 02:46
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I want to defund the police, so I cannot support Biden https://twitter.com/wsteaks/status/1296941154693414914?s=20 It might be a purity test, but the half billion in cuts to local police that Trump is proposing isn't enough either.
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Aug 22, 2020 02:51
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WampaLord posted:Also individual votes simply DO NOT MATTER on a national level and it's this bizarre sham we all do every 4 years where we act like our own vote is going to be the deciding one. to be fair i personally swung the vote to obama in indiana in 2008
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Aug 22, 2020 03:05
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Probably Magic posted:to be fair i personally swung the vote to obama in indiana in 2008 Thank you for your service
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Aug 22, 2020 03:07
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TehSaurus posted:Is it? If you have a choice between two things that are on the wrong side of the line, is there never value in choosing the one that is nearer? All things being equal, sure. But things are never equal and circumstances matter. In practice, in America since 1992, electing a democrat who holds all of the same principles as that era's republicans is met with the reaction of the election of a republican who is further to the right. Then the democrats run someone again equivalent to that republican, and when they get elected the republicans again move to the right... Continuing to vote for the one "nearer to the line" you've drawn as unwilling to cross just means you are willing to cross it, and you're okay with that line moving further and further away from your ideal.
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Aug 22, 2020 03:47
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socialists who are into historical materialism moralizing about votes are falling into a reactionary trap door, btw
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Aug 22, 2020 04:07
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It will feel so, so good on election night when you haven't voted for Biden
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Aug 22, 2020 04:11
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Thanks for the tag, by the way.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:16
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Jewel Repetition posted:It will feel so, so good on election night when you haven't voted for Biden
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Aug 22, 2020 04:17
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Why are there so many people that believe things could get even 1% better under Biden when he has explicitly come out saying nothing whatsoever will change and he is not sorry for anything he's ever done in his career?
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Aug 22, 2020 04:22
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FormaldehydeSon posted:Why are there so many people that believe things could get even 1% better under Biden when he has explicitly come out saying nothing whatsoever will change and he is not sorry for anything he's ever done in his career?
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Aug 22, 2020 04:23
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FormaldehydeSon posted:Why are there so many people that believe things could get even 1% better under Biden when he has explicitly come out saying nothing whatsoever will change and he is not sorry for anything he's ever done in his career? Approaching this from a fully dehumanized C-SPAM perspective would look a bit like this: Dems will fully report their own incompetence in say covid numbers, because they love thos institutions. This might make a difference in policy, though not in result. It's choosing your incompetent poisoner.
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Aug 22, 2020 04:26
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dead gay comedy forums posted:socialists who are into historical materialism moralizing about votes are falling into a reactionary trap door, btw personally, if the line is to include credible rape allegations (and any positive, non-zero number counts as Too Many) then maybe things have gone too far to the point where there is no tangible difference. edit: yeah, i'm going on personal history here-- the amount of bullshit people have given rapists just because they were rich and powerful is absolutely disgusting and no matter what label you attach to it, it's not worth putting aside my morals. if the revolution is to happen, it will happen regardless of whether or not i vote Gene Hackman Fan has issued a correction as of 05:16 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 05:13
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Gene Hackman Fan posted:if the revolution is to happen, it will happen regardless of whether or not i vote that is exactly my point, but it seems I should elaborate further on the topic anyone who subscribes into revolutionary socialism but does not understand (or accept) that what society considers moral or not is determined by what its most powerful forces think in that regard is in quite a problematic position, but first, some context conservatives by default operate on moralism (because moralism is fundamentally about doing what is considered 'correct' by the status quo thinking) and it is entirely enmeshed with their ideology in a rather coherent way; liberal moralism is about the individual responsibility in the context of society, which isn't coherent at gently caress all because nobody is exempt from History So you get this Liberal Individual, this amazing mythological creature, both unfettered from the past and wholly responsible for the future, making every decision in the present something extremely important for the entirety of humankind, which is why you. must. vote and abstaining from it is tantamount to crime, or why you. must. consume. ethically because YOU! are the decisive factor that will forever change the mechanical behavior of capitalism, alone! and revolutionary socialists gotta be smarter than that, because revolutionary socialists are going to be owned every loving time they decide to be moralists because the prerogative of such will not and cannot be in the side of who opposed the present social order. Conservatives are natural moralists, liberals are performative moralists; morality does not bring socialism which means that a socialist should give absolutely no fucks whatsoever about the individual responsibility of their vote when it is far more important to help your neighbors tell their landlord to eat poo poo with their prices, for example
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Aug 22, 2020 06:48
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dead gay comedy forums posted:that is exactly my point, but it seems I should elaborate further on the topic moralism is about more than what the current societal order is. people were abolitionist for moral reasons even though it was socially unacceptable, and I'm a socialist for moral reasons even though it's outside the overton window
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Aug 22, 2020 07:26
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You're misreading them, they're just saying said morality does not bring about socialism. Not that individual people don't feel moral impulses. If morality drove history the obvious inhumanity of the world as it exist now would have already prompted a revolution. So then, since it works on a material basis splitting hairs about votes is mostly the business of interpersonal relations & morality rather than socialism, at least in American context we are discussing (for the most part).
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Aug 22, 2020 07:45
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Homeless Friend posted:You're misreading them, they're just saying said morality does not bring about socialism. Not that individual people don't feel moral impulses. If morality drove history the obvious inhumanity of the world as it exist now would have already prompted a revolution. So then, since it works on a material basis splitting hairs about votes is mostly the business of interpersonal relations & morality rather than socialism, at least in American context we are discussing (for the most part). I was reading a contempt for morality in a political context which is extremely dangerous. also I believe not voting for Biden is both more moral and will make it 0.000000001% more likely that socialism will happen in a given time frame
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Aug 22, 2020 07:48
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Its Coke posted:I was reading a contempt for morality in a political context which is extremely dangerous. also I believe not voting for Biden is both more moral and will make it 0.000000001% more likely that socialism will happen in a given time frame There's definitely a thin line about the tone it was worded in, I agree. Not like socialism is a life philosophy lol.
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Aug 22, 2020 08:12
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you dont have to be a dogmatic materialist. the ruling class doesnt invent moral struggles they just jump on the bandwagon of the popular ones who happen to align with their interest. obviously slavery and nazism wouldnt have been defeated by good ideals alone but i think it gave the winning side an advantage
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Aug 22, 2020 14:34
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I'm not entirely sure I believe in defunding the police as a strategy for stopping police abuse. But every dipshit actively opposed to it is way way way way way too far right for any decent human being. gently caress Joe Biden
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Aug 22, 2020 15:01
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dead gay comedy forums posted:socialists who are into historical materialism moralizing about votes are falling into a reactionary trap door, btw Hard agree
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Aug 22, 2020 15:01
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For one of those very inclusive definitions of reaction. You gotta remember we americans all get the "voting is the ultimate good and freedom" propaganda from age 5 though adulthood on constant blast. It's hard to deinternalize it
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Aug 22, 2020 15:09
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I haven't decided if I'll bother to vote for Howie or not (or even can or not living in Istanbul), but I do know I will never vote for a man who armed salafists to slaughter my coreligionists, my in laws ethnic group, and leftist comrades around the globe since before I was born. Hit me with that gangtag yoldash
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Aug 22, 2020 15:16
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moralizing isnt reactionary. its a tactic. its intellectually dishonest and manipulative to call people rape enablers just because they vote for biden to get rid of trump, but politics isnt a fair game so im not gonna judge too harshly leftism cant exist without morals, and collective responsibility does not exist without individual responsibility towards that collective. treating voting as a duty instead of a right serves only to give the powerful false legitimacy and i do think it is the responsibility of leftists to dispel that notion and emphasize that politicians have to earn every single vote. i wouldnt go as far as to shame "harm reduction" voters though as long as they dont try any shaming themselves
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Aug 22, 2020 16:33
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Mercrom posted:its intellectually dishonest and manipulative to call people rape enablers just because they vote for biden to get rid of trump lol no it isn't
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Aug 22, 2020 16:41
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Mercrom posted:moralizing isnt reactionary. its a tactic. its intellectually dishonest and manipulative to call people rape enablers just because they vote for biden to get rid of trump, but politics isnt a fair game so im not gonna judge too harshly I mean, apply the metrics to any other occupation. If an archbishop is promoted to pope with credible rape allegations against him, that's rape enabling, right? When a college player is drafted by a pro team with credible allegations against him, that's rape enabling. When a judge is promoted to supreme court with credible rape allegations against him, that's rape enabling. There's no relative value to it because you're not voting "against opponent" you're voting "for x." There is no "other guy" when it comes to rape allegations, there is just the guy. It's not like there's "no" other option, there are, there's just no assurance they'll win, but there's no assurance Biden will win, so it becomes about intellectual vanity of "not voting for someone I know won't win" instead of "not promoting a rapist." A vote for Biden is a suspension of his accountability and the Democratic Party's accountability at large. A vote that isn't for Trump is still just a vote that isn't for Trump regardless, there's no magic ticker that registers every vote for Howie as a vote for Trump, that's just in liberal's minds. Libertarians regularly rip more third party votes from the Republicans than Green do the Democrats, but the Republicans keep winning elections. Why is that? Why can Republicans get away with less solidarity than their liberal cohorts? Green Party vote shares were increasing steadily through Obama's administration, why didn't it cost him his re-election? Because it doesn't matter. A vote is a vote is a vote, and there's no magic spells attached to it that make it mean to be for someone else than who it was a vote for.
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Aug 22, 2020 16:53
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LastInLine posted:lol no it isn't
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Aug 22, 2020 16:54
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I miss LastGirl because she would've said "Sir this is a Wendy's" about five times at me in this thread and I'd deserve every one, haha.
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Aug 22, 2020 16:56
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Homeless Friend posted:You're misreading them, they're just saying said morality does not bring about socialism. Not that individual people don't feel moral impulses. If morality drove history the obvious inhumanity of the world as it exist now would have already prompted a revolution Thank you for this Its Coke posted:I was reading a contempt for morality in a political context which is extremely dangerous. also I believe not voting for Biden is both more moral and will make it 0.000000001% more likely that socialism will happen in a given time frame ahh, I get it, it was an unfortunate combo of late night posting and being in mourning, could have worded it better to put it in another way: in terms of politics, there is a difference between morality and moralism, which is the ideological position of defending what is considered moral by society at large per default. Socialism can definitely argued as moral and righteous against moralism; however, the leftist who does so should never forget that they are themselves steeped in ideology when doing so. Like Zizek said, all of us are eating from the trash can of ideology all the time; the great difference that favors socialists - one of the very few true advantages that we have - is exactly the fact that we are aware of that. Because being moral and righteous is a category that everyone can make a claim that is based on their ideology. The liberal that chastises someone because this other person doesn't want to vote for a rapist feels themselves to be morally correct in this situation. The socialist that appeals to their morality is going to commit an even bigger mistake that liberals make all the time in regards to conservatives when "they are not responsible, they don't compromise", etc. That's why most if not all great leftist thinkers argue for bypassing it entirely in the sense of political action. Under capitalism, the dominant morality is never determined by the left.
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Aug 22, 2020 17:31
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