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Golden rule is if they don't show them being killed they ain't dead. Especially one of the main characters. And if they are dead the main characters have magic now so they won't be dead for long.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:29
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TraderStav posted:Are we done with the source material, or are there other stories to be told from that? If there's a season 2, will this be like Handmaid's tale that the show writers just riff off of where it all left off? The show hit pretty much everything from the book
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Oct 20, 2020 15:44
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The ending actually reminded me of the wish-fulfilment scenario of Inglorious Basterds. In a way I'm almost happy if they leave the show at one season. Continuing it might be robbing it of its impact.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:48
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FastestGunAlive posted:The show hit pretty much everything from the book They definitely skipped a side story that’s a send up to The Music of Erich Zann.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:07
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Tokelau All Star posted:When did people catch the Christina-Ruby switch? Ruby joining in on the Sh-Boom car singalong after bombing on it in the first episode was a nice small signal. The next time she appeared on screen I yelled "She's Christina!" and my wife gave me the biggest eyeroll. I figured it was Christina as soon as she handed over the blood before they got in the car. Ruby's been cold as ice this whole show and all of a sudden she has a change of heart? And the way she was like "you're my sister I love you so much" just seemed disingenuous immediately preceding the cemetery scene where she was very clearly like "you only wanna be my sister when you need something from me".
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Oct 20, 2020 16:51
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untzthatshit posted:I figured it was Christina as soon as she handed over the blood before they got in the car. Ruby's been cold as ice this whole show and all of a sudden she has a change of heart? And the way she was like "you're my sister I love you so much" just seemed disingenuous immediately preceding the cemetery scene where she was very clearly like "you only wanna be my sister when you need something from me". To be fair Ruby got caught trying to steal it anyway.
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Oct 20, 2020 16:58
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Ah fair I forgot about that. Still, Christina-Ruby was acting sus from the beginning of that road trip. Also, I figured you can't have body-snatching be a thing in your TV show and then NOT have it be a central part of your finale. Someone was gonna not be who they seemed to be. untzthatshit fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 17:13
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This show was excellent, I'd be insanely hype for a second season but just as happy if they let it end with what we got.
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Oct 20, 2020 17:42
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Someone on Twitter just pointed out that in comic books Hippolyta is the mother and maker of Diana (aka Wonder Woman). Dee's full name is Diana Freeman. Also this: https://twitter.com/darbieworld/status/1318577187512061955
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Oct 20, 2020 17:45
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Skip to 1:15 https://youtu.be/ulBhboo34gY
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Oct 20, 2020 20:03
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Life could be a dream (shoggoth) If I could take you into paradise up above (shoggoth) If you would tell me I'm the only one that you love Life could be a dream sweetheart Hello hello again (shoggoth) and hoping we'll meet again (goth-shoggoth)
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Oct 20, 2020 21:45
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untzthatshit posted:I figured it was Christina as soon as she handed over the blood before they got in the car. Ruby's been cold as ice this whole show and all of a sudden she has a change of heart? And the way she was like "you're my sister I love you so much" just seemed disingenuous immediately preceding the cemetery scene where she was very clearly like "you only wanna be my sister when you need something from me". White feminism.txt
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Oct 20, 2020 22:22
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Some truly excellent, amazing episodes in a regrettably mediocre show. Whatever infected HBO's Watchmen made its way into this too No season 2 please
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Oct 20, 2020 23:03
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Explaining Lovecraft Country to others
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Oct 21, 2020 00:15
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Some truly excellent, amazing episodes in a regrettably mediocre show. Whatever infected HBO's Watchmen made its way into this too Hey some people enjoyed it, you can just pretend season 2 doesn't exist.
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Oct 21, 2020 00:19
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socialsecurity posted:Hey some people enjoyed it, you can just pretend season 2 doesn't exist. Oh I don't mean "it was bad so I don't want more of it to exist" (again, loved it, some incredible episodes ). I meant, this felt like it was conceived of and executed as a one-and-done, so don't try to tack on a superfluous Season 2 just to sell HBO subs
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Oct 21, 2020 00:25
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FastestGunAlive posted:As an Asian American I’m reflecting on the use of Asian/Asian Americans in this show and Watchmen and I’m not able to put it in words but I feel... some type of way. I’m not offended and I appreciate both shows as an opportunity to educate myself but I feel disappointed I guess. My wife is Asian-American, and her complaint on this point about Watchmen was basically that Lady Trieu felt like an also-ran, a bit of diversity casting that didn't really intersect with the wider narrative in a particular or important way. If you met the showrunners way more than halfway, there's maybe some argument to be gleamed about colonialism or global capitalism, but trying to tie that into the show's specific themes of anti-black racism? Eh, I don't know. You could probably say similar things about Ji-ah in this. There are a lot of topics her story elicits - on feminist, anti-racist, and post-colonial grounds - but does the show really want to delve into them, or just acknowledge they exist? The writers clearly had a solid perspective and a lot of knowledge of black history and black thought, but there's a lot about Ji-ah's experience that's external to that and couldn't really receive time or focus this season. I had a similar thought a few episodes back about Yahima, who had SO much to chew on (as an intersex, indigenous time traveler) before they just gut her immediately and address none of it.
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Oct 21, 2020 00:37
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untzthatshit posted:I figured it was Christina as soon as she handed over the blood before they got in the car. Ruby's been cold as ice this whole show and all of a sudden she has a change of heart? And the way she was like "you're my sister I love you so much" just seemed disingenuous immediately preceding the cemetery scene where she was very clearly like "you only wanna be my sister when you need something from me". Anonymous Zebra posted:Someone on Twitter just pointed out that in comic books Hippolyta is the mother and maker of Diana (aka Wonder Woman). Dee's full name is Diana Freeman.
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Oct 21, 2020 01:04
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I wanted to like the finale, I really did, but yikes. The show overall was good, I would watch some of the episodes again, and would watch most of some episodes (occasionally fastforwarding). I feel like this entire show would have benefited from being a little longer, even just like 12-15 eps. There was a lot of stuffthat was rushed through at maximum speed that ended up actually being story-important. There was also a lot of stuff that could have been cut or done differently to offer more time to the important things. The pacing was...so weird...didnt love it. Wasnt a fan of the exposition dimension either, I feel that stuff could have been told to us through the story over the course of several episodes instead of having characters dump a ton of information all at once. Building up the story with his bloodline and the book more consistently instead of sort of ignoring it for long periods of time and them blasting it out in huge info dumps would have been rad. The pacing and tone shifts of the finale felt like 3 episodes that got chopped together and then different parts were played at different speeds. I also felt like the warlock cops were a better villain/group than christina. The cops actually had some building tension, and there were a bunch of story and visual parts to them that I thought was leading up to something, and then just never did. Their threat level actually increased over the course of the show and I thought it was building up to more than just all of them getting massacred at once by a monster. They were also more satisfying villains because they were outright and actively malicious and extremely threatening. Christina's threat level sort of hit one spot and then plateaued throughout the whole show, occasionally dipping but never rising. As others have said the main cast never seemed to actively try to do anything about her the entire time, or even care about what she was doing for the most part, until they found out she wanted to sacrifice Tic. She just seemed like another side character, whereas the cops were the villains. Ji-ah's contribution felt hollow and unnecessary, and her being a cliche rear end nine-tailed fox demon was...eh. Like, there are other asian spirits out there, not sure why the asian girl had to be a predatory sex demon with an anime twist. The connecting tic and christina thing could have been achieved by Leti just stabbing the bloody dagger into tic's body and wouldnt have needed a whole extra character to be there, it kind of felt like they decided she needed to be in the final scene but werent really sure how so just...used her as an extension cord. I think Yahima would have been a better character to keep around for this since they actually had a connection to and usefulness to the Book Plot. I really didnt like the back to back scenes with Ji-ah/Tic and Leti/Ruby, both scenes felt like the heroes had intentionally gone out to emotionally manipulate people who cared about them because they needed something. Especially when Leti presumably used the pregnancy as a trump-card to guilt Ruby into helping her out. Neither of them seemed very genuine. Maybe it would have been different if they'd kept ji-ah around when she arrived in america instead of just brushing her aside until the very end when they needed help. I would have liked to see the stuff between Hippolyta and Di pushed back by several episodes and then spread out across them. It just felt weird that Di made such a big deal about not caring where her mom went just that she wasnt there (a totally 100% valid feeling that I appreciate that she expressed) but then later she gets left in a car in the dark woods where monsters are. Like, they all knew the monsters were there, and that they could rip up cars. Why did they leave her out there? Hippolyta didnt contribute anything to the ending 'fight', I would have preferred to see her stay behind either at the house or in the car with Di. Maybe even deal with the monsters together. It felt like they set up that trauma for Di fairly well and then just sort of brushed it off with a robot arm because it was time for other stuff to happen. Idk, the character development between them should have been over the course of multiple episodes, not sprinkled lightly over the finale. Christina's motivations and actions also seemed loving weird at times, like her knocking ruby out and putting her in a coma to make sure she could do her big spell, but then saving Leti at the last moment? I assume she saved her because she loved Ruby and made the promise, but by the time she already bopped her into slumbertown it seemed like an odd choice, especially since she did nothing to restrain Leti and prevent her from doing exactly what she did. I guess it could be that she assumed she would be ok once she was immortal, but she KNEW they had the book, so that was uncharacteristically stupid of her. Rambling aside, I think being longer by even a couple eps could have helped this show. There were some great things that were either rushed at lightning speed or squeezed into too short of a time by mostly happening off screen or in flashy cuts/montage. The earlier episodes like the ghost one I really enjoyed, I thought they were pretty strong, and some of the arcs COULD have been that strong if they were just paced better. At times it kind of felt like they wrote the show as an episodic thing and then tried to stuff the overarching plot in later instead of weaving it all together coherently.
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Oct 21, 2020 03:48
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Xealot posted:My wife is Asian-American, and her complaint on this point about Watchmen was basically that Lady Trieu felt like an also-ran, a bit of diversity casting that didn't really intersect with the wider narrative in a particular or important way. If you met the showrunners way more than halfway, there's maybe some argument to be gleamed about colonialism or global capitalism, but trying to tie that into the show's specific themes of anti-black racism? Eh, I don't know. Yea, just felt like either show was not able to explore the themes hinted at fully. I was a little more forgiving toward Watchmen because Vietnam was more relevant to the plot and the alt-history angle.
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Oct 21, 2020 04:19
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9 tailed foxes existed before anime, automatically classifying Korean cultures historical myths as "anime" is racist as poo poo. But I do agree the pacing was a bit erratic and the 2 big magic endgame setpieces in the 2nd and last episodes felt different than every other episode and not in a good way.
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Oct 21, 2020 04:48
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socialsecurity posted:9 tailed foxes existed before anime, automatically classifying Korean cultures historical myths as "anime" is racist as poo poo. But I do agree the pacing was a bit erratic and the 2 big magic endgame setpieces in the 2nd and last episodes felt different than every other episode and not in a good way. Yeah I know, but there are a ton of other korean creatures that could have worked or even worked better here, but they chose possibly the singularly most recognizable and overused (by western stuff) supernatural creature in any asian culture, that people almost exclusively are aware of because of anime. I think dragons are the only eastern mythological thing that might outrank nine tailed foxes. I just think they could have scratched the surface a little deeper to find something more interesting/fitting and also maybe not made her a predatory sex demon with killer orgasms and pussy tentacles.
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Oct 21, 2020 05:18
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Yeah the nine tailed fox was stupid and I'm still kinda not sure if it was necessary for the story
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Oct 21, 2020 19:51
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Episodes 2 and the finale fell flat for me but every other episode was incredible. Solid 8/10 and an absolutely vital evolution for the representation of the black experience in scifi/fantasy.
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Oct 21, 2020 20:24
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Don't need a second season, do need an Orynthia Blue spinoff
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Oct 21, 2020 22:50
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Mameluke posted:Don't need a second season, do need an Orynthia Blue spinoff Hell, I agree. It'd be shlocky as hell but I don't even care. I'd watch a Flash Gordon-y pulp scifi about Orynthia Blue and her cyborg daughter, traveling across spacetime with their pet shoggoth. Supernatural ran for 15 seasons, so why the gently caress not?
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Oct 22, 2020 00:02
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I am kind of worried that they were setting up Dee to be a villain in the next season. Just had that feel for me. Show definitely had some highs and lows at the beginning, but I felt like the back half was solid all the way until the end. Christina was the low key more powerful villain than the cops. She’s more like the white liberal who undermines black people at every turn, while also claiming to help them. Unlike the cops who will outright murder black people because they’re just that evil. Sacrificing Tic was just a thing that needed to happen for her. She doesn’t care about his life, but acts as if it’s weird that everyone wants to stop her.
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Oct 22, 2020 01:29
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I get that Cristina was supposed to be White Feminism, but did she also have to be such a boring villain? The Handmaid's Tale went off the rails as soon as the 2nd Season, but at least it had great performers like Ann Dowd and Yvonne Strahovski portraying nuanced characters. The best than can Cristina could give us was some genuine feelings for Ruby and the series doesn't do much with it. What a waste of Ji-Ah; it is very annoying that HBO has had 2 shows about racism in the US that did poorly when dealing with its Asian characters. Overall, this series showed me that a TV show can have great individual episodes, but can be a mess when taken as a whole season. I don't feel interested in a second season, though at least this worked to give Majors a bigger showcase of his talent. Hope he goes on to do better stuff.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:04
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She isn't even White Feminism, just some rich white lady.
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Oct 22, 2020 04:08
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Halloween Jack posted:She isn't even White Feminism, just some rich white lady. Nah, if she was just a rich white lady then that subplot with Ruby would not have the type of symbolism that it had. Christina is absolutely a stand-in for criticisms of White Woman Feminism from the point of view of African Americans. The general idea that white women have a (rightful) issue with how they are treated by the patriarchy, and will ally with other oppressed groups in the interest of overthrowing that patriarchy, but will often discount or talk over the issues that those other oppressed groups attempt to bring into the movement (on a side note, this criticism also works for many leftist groups that become dominated by white progressives who become laser focused on class issues over race issues). Ruby's emotional monologue in episode 8, where she essentially says that Christina can never feel or truly understand what she feels because Christina has never lived under the constant onslaught of fear, outrage, and despair that Ruby has lived under is essentially a page right out of the argument that feminist movements should be led by women of color while white women use their inherent privileged to help WOC achieve the goals that they choose to focus on. The idea is that white women CAN be allies, but they can never have the lived experience of WOC, so even with their best intentions they can never really tackle those issues if they are left to lead the movement. Christina also represents another issue with white feminists in that they either consciously or unconsciously are unable to surrender the privilege that they DO have. Christina is a powerful shape-changing wizard. In response to Ruby's speech, she had the power to turn herself into a black woman, so that she COULD experience that constant sense of fear that Ruby is trying to articulate. But she won't, and we all know that she won't, because she understands that her whiteness provides her with a safe-house that she can always go back to if the going gets too tough. I was reading a great article about a month ago, where they showed that many whites had stopped showing up to the BLM protests around the country in comparison to how many were showing up early on. The privilege of whiteness is that you can stop protesting when you feel like it, something POC cannot afford to do. White people all carry a form of Christina's "Mark of Cain", being able to dabble in danger with the knowledge that they can always turn it back on when it gets too scary. None of this stuff is theoretical either. 2018 in California a Women's March was cancelled because the organizer looked around her and realized that all the other organizers were white...in a state with a gigantic non-white population. The national level Women's March that year also experienced issues as some organizers accused other organizers of antisemitism due to their connections to the Nation of Islam (antisemitism is frequently used as a cudgel against feminists of color because most of the time it is focused on black Muslim women, and other WOC who are Muslim). Last year, during the Democratic Primary, 3 prominent Democratic superstars (all non-white) sat on a stage and said that it was okay to BOO Hillary Clinton, and they were again, attacked by white feminists for not showing feminine solidarity with Clinton. Never mind that those women had a pretty good reason why they felt Clinton should be open to criticism, that was not considered relevant in the current (white woman) dominant discourse. Sorry for the long post. Christina, to me, seems like a really obvious example of the issues with white women feminists that are often brought up by feminists of color. EDIT: This is also why Christina is not a "villain" for most of the season. Because, compared to the white male patriarchy (A lodge of wizards) or the constant violence from law enforcement (also a lodge of violent wizards), a bunch of semi-detached white women come off as not being a major threat and even sometimes allies against those other forces. It's only when you remove those forces that you realize that these ladies don't really have any interest in helping you out either. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Oct 22, 2020 |
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Oct 22, 2020 07:51
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Yeah, totally agree that she's white feminism. Alsoradlum posted:What a waste of Ji-Ah; it is very annoying that HBO has had 2 shows about racism in the US that did poorly when dealing with its Asian characters. Still looking for shows or movies w/ real things to say about positive interracial relationships in America. The closest I can think of is like... American History X. Haha. Oof.
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Oct 22, 2020 14:14
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Christina is absolutely a stand-in for criticisms of White Woman Feminism from the point of view of African Americans. Look, in an otherwise great series, episode 8 was bewilderingly bad. They used the murder of Emmett Till as a springboard to talk about literally every type of oppression besides black men and boys being murdered by the cops. His funeral being set to "Cruel Summer" is like an announcement that they don't know how to deal with this very basic issue. I give the show a pass on this because, among other things, I've never seen such a stridently anti-police American TV show, let alone one that acknowledges American war crimes in Korea. But it was a string of bizarre missteps.
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Oct 22, 2020 15:53
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I'd like people to bring up one line from Christina that makes her seem like a white feminist. She specifically didn't want to be a woman.
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Oct 22, 2020 16:33
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Doltos posted:I'd like people to bring up one line from Christina that makes her seem like a white feminist. She specifically didn't want to be a woman. Neither do white feminists haha
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Oct 22, 2020 17:32
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Abbey Lee Kershaw is an Australian fashion model who was cast because of her resemblance to Jordan Patrick Smith. I have to imagine she was initially going to be a minor part and the 'character' was primarily portrayed by the two other actors. A lot of the character fell flat because she is not a leading lady, but what they were going for was a fantastically accurate tribute to the self-loathing, self-defeating white feminist who tries to claim camaraderie with actual oppressed groups while lifting the drawbridge at every opportunity.
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Oct 22, 2020 18:13
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She’s not a great actress but she was in Fury Road and The Neon Demon.
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Oct 22, 2020 18:55
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Halloween Jack posted:Look, in an otherwise great series, episode 8 was bewilderingly bad. They used the murder of Emmett Till as a springboard to talk about literally every type of oppression besides black men and boys being murdered by the cops. His funeral being set to "Cruel Summer" is like an announcement that they don't know how to deal with this very basic issue. I give the show a pass on this because, among other things, I've never seen such a stridently anti-police American TV show, let alone one that acknowledges American war crimes in Korea. But it was a string of bizarre missteps.
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Oct 22, 2020 19:56
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Josh Lyman posted:She’s not a great actress but she was in Fury Road and The Neon Demon. Do you recall her character's name, fate, and any single line of dialog?  She has acting credits but she's not an actor.
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Oct 22, 2020 20:04
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I liked the finale and how things ultimately fell, but I definitely feel like the show was messy enough that a second season would have to both retcon their triumph immediately as well as over-explain some facets that I kinda hope they leave it as is. I don't think you could get a more visceral satisfactory ending than Christina's throat being horribly crushed as their guardian shoggoth triumphantly howls in the background.Josh Lyman posted:She’s not a great actress but she was in Fury Road and The Neon Demon. I refuse to believe anyone could remember anything about Neon Demon other than Keanu and the cougar enough to remember individual actresses
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Oct 22, 2020 20:05
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I remember the only other people in the theatre walking out on the necrophilia scene.
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Oct 22, 2020 20:23
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