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Governor Boris and the Sea of Boredom Welcome back! Last time on Tyranny, we tried to throw Graven Ashe under the bus to pave the way for ourselves. Today we're knocking out our last Act 2 region, the Stone Sea.  I've been forgetting about this for a while thanks to us being on Story difficulty, but way back in Act 1 we unlocked Blood Magic by shaking down Fifth Eye.  Blood Mulch is pretty happy to see us as we've been rolling with the Chorus.  We also get to pick up the Blood Magic sigil, which...exists, I guess.  It's a 30% increase in spell damage that drains health from the caster. It's not bad, and you can certainly mitigate it by having healing or Gravelight spells on hand, but it also takes up an accent slot that you could just be using for Frostfire/Focused Rain/Stunning/whatever. Spell damage is nice, but the way mages play in Tyranny is just dully rotating through all the crowd control spells until everyone is finally dead.  This is a sidequest we got at Cacophony.  There's nothing interesting to say about it other than "the Disfavored all die after a bunch of Tyranny Combat".  I do want to say that for all its gameplay faults, the combat in Tyranny is very good at conveying the atmosphere that you're a vicious killer in a power struggle rather than a heroic liberator. The music is harsh and martial, characters scream and panic as they're set on fire, and there's blood everywhere.  Back to Halfgate. It's still not very interesting, but we don't have to slaughter all the Scarlet Chorus because they're on our team and actively rooting for our success.  First we're going to speak with Tangled Limb here.  : The Disfavored lurk and creep in the shadows of tall rocks. They think we don't see them. But we're going to grind them to dust. We'll cleanse the Disfavored from these lands, our lands - we'll burn them with Scarlet blood before the morrow.  : Well, I am now. Do continue. : A shrine? In Azure? : You'll need me to avoid unnecessary casualties. I might as well join you.: Good on you, Fatebinder. Good on you! Well, as much as I enjoy conversing with you, I have to set off. My warparty's getting antsy. I'll be looking forward to spilling blood with you soon, Fatebinder.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
This is of course the complete opposite of bringing order to the Tiers, but what are you gonna do?  Grayson gives us his spiel. Of note is that Calio dropped the Edict of Stone on them, he needs help retrieving the villagers who got captured by Stonestalkers, and everything sucks.  The racist villagers still feel powerless, so they take it out on Left-Claw.  Because we're with the Chorus, we have the option to conscript the unfortunate Left-Claw instead, which satisfies both Tunon and Hundred-Blood.  Also this terrible woman who immediately turns around and starts shrieking at us.  : I can't believe you freed that monster. Fatebinder, we both know that the Beastmen are a plague on our culture. We can't hope to restore our former glory while they think us little more than prey. : Justice is reserved for those who accept Kyros' Peace. Halfgate is just an occupied city.: A comfortable distinction to make when it benefits you. If it suited Kyros' law, I'm sure you could find a way to number us among the vassals of some Archon.: She sighs. As if I'm in any position to question Kyros' law. Go on, then. Our business is done.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
It's really hard to feel any sympathy for the Stone Sea villagers because of poo poo like this, and the bleakness is the point. People will happily sign up for what Kyros is selling if they're on the bottom of the terrible social order imposed by the Tiersmen - hell, Left-Claw actually thanks us for conscripting him into the army. There's a reason the game is called Tyranny instead of Kyros Quest. Anyway, we've been instructed to report to Misery.   : And by little, I mean what's left of it after your friend had her way with the place. She lets out a harsh, barking laugh. Not that I'm complaining! Pure destruction really gets my blood going. We have the option to betray her for no real gain, but we saw that path already so we're staying on the railroad. : How'd you get your name? : Oh? Run in with the Courts?  The cycle of abuse is a recurring theme in the Stone Sea. Cairn is in agony and the land literally writhes with his pain. The villagers are powerless so they take it out on the Beastmen. The entire Scarlet Chorus runs on this, as we see with Misery here. : Nerat grows impatient that you have not yet killed Cairn. While you dawdle and fail, our army continues to starve. Misery is definitely one of the smarter commanders we've run into. : If that were the case, I would not be here to ensure the hastening of your success. : Where does the intel point us?: Word from the locals says Cairn was headed for a Spire when he crumbled. We've already checked the one at Gulfglow, so it's got to be at the place the Beastmen call Howling Rock. : I presume the Beastmen have refused to lead you to Howling Rock.: Right on the mark, you are. They've been less than welcoming ever since we hunted a herd of them during the fall of Azure. We've had to stoop to less than upstanding methods. Note that if you do the Disfavored you only get the option to do genocide. : Brutally efficient. I approve.By this point there's really no pretending that our character is stupid enough to start mouthing off about human rights, because we voluntarily joined the madman who impales people on stakes and we bypassed all the [Betray Alliance] choices.  : But screw me on this, and I'll make sure the Voices eats you whole. God drat, Sirin! : She sneers at the other woman and pumps her spear in a both threatening and clearly vulgar manner.: I could put a hole in your throat faster than you could squeak. Sure, it might kill me. But it sure as poo poo would kill you.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Time to move on.  On to the Jagged Maw Shrine. We have the encounter with the old man trying to attack us with chicken that I'm pretty sure we've seen already.  Tangled Limb doesn't understand this whole "ambush" thing, apparently. : Now, I won't fault you or name you cowards if you wish to beg a swift death. I mean, it's plain as day a horrific, torturous end awaits you otherwise... oh all right - regardless. : Considering I'll be joining the battle against you, I'd wager that bet on the Chorus' odds.Caedis here is Radix Ironcore's brother (the leader of the Earthshakers). He's fairly important in the rebel path if you're trying to recruit the Earthshakers as you can have him convince Ironcore to defect from the Disfavored and join your little group of aristocrats instead. Come to think of it, half of the rebel path recruits can be deserters from Kyros' forces. Freedom fighters my rear end.  There's a lot of cruel poo poo you can do like sneak attacking Caedis, decapitating him, and then showing the head to his brother. I missed those options so they're not shown.   : [Glare silently.] : I don't care who you've fought or hosed in the past. Either stay out of this, Fatebinder, or help me and my squad survive, and I swear to you - I'll owe you my life. : I fight for the Scarlet Chorus. Caedis, prepare to die, bleeding and broken in a wasteland of stone. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
You know the drill, we kill them all. Tangled Limb is happy about it.   We also get the Stone sigil. On with the main quest!  Back to harassing the Stonestalkers!  Octave's question is a good one that also underscores just how dysfunctional the conquest is.  : Misery sent me to provide assistance with the Stonestalkers. : The reason you've been unable to entice even a few Stonestalkers to our side is because of this Hundred-Blood - their leader?Octave here is apparently the only male Scarlet Fury in the game.  : Far as I can tell, it's Hundred-Blood that's calling the shots. Thanks to her, most of the Beasts would rather fight us than talk. : I'll win the favor of the tribe and ensure that we are led to Howling Rock. : What information have you gleaned regarding these Stonestalkers? : Why have you yet to uncover the route to Cairn's remains? : Farewell.: He shrugs, already dismissing you with a half-hearted wave over his shoulder. Be wary of the Beastmen, boss. They're in a vicious suit as of late.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Same poo poo as last time. Hundred-Blood has different dialogue because we didn't bring Killsy, but she still acknowledges us as an Alpha. We tell her that we want passage for ourselves and the Chorus, and we offer to do her a favor.  We're tasked with massacring all the Earthshakers again.  Basilion does the same crap he always does, but idiotically asks if we're BFFs with the Scarlet Chorus. This lets us kill him immediately and we take it.  Having heroically thrown Kyros' Peace in the trash with the explicit permission of Tunon, we can continue murdering all the Earthshakers offscreen. We've seen it before and it's boring, and Basilon also drops the key to Treason Fort.  Unfortunately I gently caress up and forget the Spire puzzle. I'll grab the Spires next update. We don't have a lot of game left, honestly.  We get a random encounter that gives us the opportunity to ignore a bunch of Bane and clear fear from our companions.  Having massacred all the idiots we can report to Hundred-Blood, and things go a bit differently. : The situation has been handled. : I've slain the Earthshakers who were troubling your tribe.  : I would like you to meet with the Voices of Nerat. Hundred Blood is understandably reluctant to do this, as she understands full well what she's dealing with. If you haven't gotten it yet, the Fatebinder is sullying themselves by association with the Chorus for very little in return. Do you get it yet, player? : I assisted your tribe, Prima. You owe me.There are echoes of Zdenya's death sentence here.  : She grunts her unwilling assent. Human comes from strange pack with blood-berserked Alphas ruled by insatiable lust for chaos. But Hundred-Blood can no longer deny Chorus' strength. Will go, will speak with human Alpha called Voices of Nerat.  Let's be honest, we don't love Nerat either. : Be careful, Beastwoman. Keep your ears open and your eyes keen when dealing with the Archon.This is advice probably anyone in the Chorus would give her, honestly.  TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
You get no prizes for guessing how this turns out.  We can also cash in releasing Left-Claw to get the people from Racist Town released.  Anyway, we go to Howling Rock and kill all the Earthshakers. We saw it last time.  There's a bit more clicking on Octave and his forces help attack the fort, but he doesn't have much of interest to say.  Despite having the plot keystone, we still have to listen to these idiots loudly explain how to get into Treason Fort.  Then we have to report it to Octave because path.  Sirin isn't happy about it either, but what can you do?  We break in and kill everyone.  Something I wanted to point out was that the Earthshaker ritual is to permanently blight the land on behalf of the Disfavored. Earlier in the game posted:
This is completely counterproductive to the stated goal of providing food for everyone and it's horrifically self-defeating. If the Disfavored win they are going to rule this place, and they're ruining their long term strategic capabilities of being able to feed themselves and their subjects with this small minded idiocy. It's a minor detail, but it's worth pointing out!  Radix is mad. He dies like a bitch anyway and we ruin the ritual.  Note the implication that there have been "past iterations" of this ritual. My guess is that Kyros used this before and there are a bunch of starving people in the Empire.  Radix has incriminating evidence on his corpse.  We might actually be able to convict Ashe at this rate!  Boris gets his only Act 2 Edict here, the Edict of Stone. We could have gotten fire if we'd hit the Library, so I'm looking forward to seeing the differences when we actually have to drop it. We've seen most of the dialogue before, and the three mages get a loyalty boost. Next time: We grab the Spires and move on to Act III.
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Sep 21, 2021 02:41
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: BITCH I'll CUT YOU!
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RIP Hundred-Blood. On my first playthrough I really did think there was a chance she'd survive. But as mentioned already many times, the Chorus path is the path of deluding yourself that you're taking the only option you can.
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Sep 21, 2021 07:49
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Seeing a “typical” path, it’s easy to see why people may have difficulties with the game. Following one of the armies just puts this pall over the entire thing. I bet most people’s first experience is Anarchy, whether immediate or eventual.
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Sep 21, 2021 20:08
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Keldulas posted:Seeing a “typical” path, it’s easy to see why people may have difficulties with the game. Following one of the armies just puts this pall over the entire thing. I think that might almost be intentional that the game pushes you to decide - ok now are you going to betray your alliance? What about now? What's your breaking point? Because also, as you can see in this playthrough, if you don't do it eventually then you also basically get no time with Bleden Mark throughout act 2. When he becomes relevant in act 3 it's almost like "huh, what was his deal?" on a Chorus or Disfavored path.
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Sep 22, 2021 03:47
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bewilderment posted:I think that might almost be intentional that the game pushes you to decide - ok now are you going to betray your alliance? What about now? What's your breaking point? We've gotten two different opportunities to betray alone in last update. The Scarlet Chorus is getting very adept at using us while the game really wants us to realize that we've thrown our good name in the mud for the opportunity to, erm, subordinate ourselves to Nerat. Granted, I stuck with the Disfavored till the end on my first run, even when the game made it clear yeah you're gonna have to do the genocide, then because it was 2 am I was mad about being railroaded into genocide. The actual answer is "no, dumbass, you made the choice to stick with Hitler McFascist, what did you expect him to have you do?"
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Sep 22, 2021 04:05
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bewilderment posted:I think that might almost be intentional that the game pushes you to decide - ok now are you going to betray your alliance? What about now? What's your breaking point? I did the Chorus path first and yeah running into Bleden Mark late in the game was very much "who's that guy?". It's very confusing if you don't know the wider context of his role in the game because you'll have a whole reputation meter just for him that, if you aren't on the anarchy path, never seems to do anything.
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Sep 22, 2021 04:18
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Keldulas posted:Seeing a “typical” path, it’s easy to see why people may have difficulties with the game. Following one of the armies just puts this pall over the entire thing. The breakdown for wins, per steam achievements Complete the game as an ally of the Disfavored. 7.9% Complete the game without any allies. 4.7% Complete the game as an ally of the Scarlet Chorus. 3.4% Complete the game after forging an alliance among the rebel factions of the Tiers. 3.2% Siding with Disfavored and playing through with them till the end is the most popular route by a good margin. If you checks the steam forums or reddit there are 100% people who argue Ashe/Disfavored did nothing wrong. Personally, I stuck with the disfavored to see how things play out, not because I endorsed what my character was doing. The writing on the disfavored route is pretty good in so far as you see the slippery slope that leads people to ever more extreme positions and actions. The game was defiantly advertised as being a "evil" power fantasy rather than a serious examination of the systems that empower monsters leads seemingly decent people to horrible actions. I think people were expecting something more akin to Cobra in GI Joe, where is it so ludicrous and untethered to real life that it doesn't feel bad to be a puppy kicking super villain.
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Sep 24, 2021 14:29
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Governor Boris and the Adventures in Blowing People Up Welcome back! Last time on Tyranny we stopped the Disfavored's evil plan to blight the land and killed the Archon of Stone. Today we're going to ruin Graven Ashe's whole career in a completely different manner!  Octave has some stuff to say to us.  : [Lore 52] I could explain the intricacies of geo-triadic temporal energy channeling, but you still wouldn't understand, so what's the point?Bold words for a guy who didn't know stone magic until an hour ago. It's also notable that the Scarlet Chorus Fatebinder - and you are deeply immersed in the Chorus at this point - is just going along for abusing subordinates now. If you're not getting that the Chorus changes you more than you change the Chorus, you're missing the entire point of this route.  Of course, Octave has to take it, but it's still kind of a lovely thing to say.  : Thanks, I'll snag a piece of Cairn before I inform Nerat of our success in breaking the Edict.: If you're going to be giving a report to the Voices, feel free to name drop me, boss. Me and the gang were pretty instrumental to the cause, wouldn't you say?: With a final rasping laugh, he waves you off.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 We get these convos again. Now, at this time I grab the strength amulet, claim the last two spires, and set up some research and forges offscreen. We've seen it before so I'm skipping it.  Along the way, we get jumped by a bunch of angry Disfavored and kill them.  Back to the plot! Poor Hundred-Blood has been skinned and used as a chair. We are responsible for all of this. We have not changed the Chorus. Matthias tried and look where it got him.  All we've achieved is enthroning Nerat. Good job Boris!   : You're back! What do you think of our throne? As much as we hate a cold, unmoving chair, this one suits us. Without a spot to plant ourselves, we would pace the length of the Oldwalls every day in our contemplation. : I've successfully resolved the Edict of Stone.: And Cairn the insufferable is vanquished from the lands! As much as that rebellious simpleton of an Archon amused us, an Edict resolved is more important to our purposes. He will not be missed, and our gangs will feast on the fruit of these lands. : [Leave] Excellent. They've saved me the effort of bringing the fight to them.  : I watch eagerly for your bird.Rhogalus wants to know about killing Cairn, so we give him an honest description. I'm pretty sure the other two options read as a threat to Tunon and violating the will of Kyros, respectively.  The Fifth Eye is here to help us instead of our Fatebinder friend.  : The massive sculpture rumbles, shaking the masonry of the Spire, and sending him off balance.  : The Spire is now fully awake, its long-dormant currents of energy dance to your presence. : The Spire often communicates in visions. Perhaps this is its way of saying it has something to discuss? : When I shattered the Edict of Stone, I was struck by a flood of visions - mystic wisdom about the Edict. I could try proclaiming it without Kyros' words. : THAT is your plan? You think playing pretend Overlord will save you? He waves his hand at you dismissively. By all means, shout your words to the winds. I'd wager every ring I have that it can't be done! : There's still so much that doesn't make sense.: I would agree. The Archon of Secrets has shared much with me, but this is... beyond even my erudite mind. : The Spires in the Tiers are linked - just how far does this connection go? : [Athletics 57] [Reach out as far as you can.] : You issue a soft hum into the Resonator and then fall silent, stretching your senses across the Tiers to hear how far your voice can be felt.: Your voice becomes a trivial squeak against the raging torrents of the Edicts[sic] of Storms in the Blade Grave.Oh, and now that Amelia's dead the only way to end that Edict is to kill the baby. : While your voice echoes throughout most of the Tiers, no echo can be heard in the Contested Lands. The raging crackle of Kyros' Edict of Fire seems to drown out your call.Because we didn't decide to go to the Library we missed that Edict as well. Oops! Anyway, if there are still Edicts left over you didn't break you can't cast an Edict on that area.   Fifth Eye kind of has a point that there's a legion of fascists outside waiting to kick our rear end. : The Spire can't seem to reach where Kyros' Edicts still churn, but otherwise, I think this Spire can reach out anywhere in the Tiers.: Fascinating... the Spire contains such power... the Voices of Nerat will be most intrigued. : [Touch the Resonator and concentrate.] What could possibly go wrong?  By siding with the Scarlet Chorus, we are actually weaker than in the Anarchist playthrough as we have one and only one Edict to deal with the situation. We could have had Fire as well to be fair, and we can research Malediction in Act 3.  Marlowe's Faustus posted:I see there's virtue in my heavenly words: Earlier in the game posted:
This is extremely subtle as most players are going to be focused on THE POWER or the army outside the door, but this is the point where the player character accepts damnation. The entire game the Fatebinder has used the system to survive and gather power, and in this route especially has sacrificed their integrity and loyalty on behalf of the Voices of Nerat to gain less than they would have gained on their own. Nevertheless, whether you form an alliance with the loyal boyars, the fascist army, the insane trauma indoctrination show, or the secret police running interference so you can legitimize yourself as the Monarch Of The Totally Real Unified Tiers, you're still working within the system Kyros designed, and thus you're railroaded into seeking more and more power. What else are you going to do? Hide? Take a boat and gamble on another continent like Occulted Jade? There is no America to flee to because all is Kyros. It's brilliant. The game railroads the players into crossing the final line while making it seem like a great and cool idea that is born out of necessity. The Disfavored aren't even attacking you, they're attacking your powerbase which as far as I can tell has 3 dudes in it who have access to an escape teleporter. On some level the Fatebinder wants this kind of power, otherwise they would never have gotten this far in the Kyrosian hierarchy. Remember, every Fatebinder, no matter how well intentioned, opens the game by dropping an Edict on an area, which either burns people alive or slowly petrifies them. The cruelty is the point.  : I had a feeling that might work. The Fifth Eye is not stupid. This can - and will, if you make the choice to do so - cause an apocalyptic hellwar so two egotistical assholes can play Dictator Theater. : Distant shouts and roars draw the Fifth Eye's attention to the army amassing below. But first things first. Your Edict has sewn fear and disorder throughout the Disfavored. We must strike now, at the zenith of conusion!: The Fifth Eye struts toward the portal with a twirl of his spear. Their suffering has just begun! Join us, Fatebinder - I'd hate for you to miss the fun. As before, we exit the tower to a scene of devastation.  Marlowe's Faustus posted:FAUSTUS. Where are you drat'd?  The Disfavored run the gently caress away.  Aww, that's cute, he thinks he has a shot in hell.  : He turns to his warriors and lifts his hand in the air. Moving in rehearsed unison, the warriors snap to formation and ready their weapons. I will never not take the Lore option here. : [Lore 52] Fools, did you not hear me proclaim that Edict? Either I cast that Edict by myself, or did so with the Overlord's blessing - think that through very carefully. : Enough prattle. Advance! Slay this aberration of 'justice,' and bring glory to Graven Ashe!: Ceveus gives the signal to attack, and rushes forward with a roar. It's Tyranny combat. The only thing different here is that we have Fifth Eye and a Blood Chanter helping us out. It's on easy baby difficulty, though the only thing that would really change is how many times I have to click the launch CC button on the mages.  : We've done it! They're- stumbling over a slight tremor, he plants his spear into the ground to catch his balance. They're falling back! So much for Disfavored courage, your Edict of Stone has them terrified!: We have the courtyard under our control - leave the clean-up duty to me and my gang. Make haste the top of the Spire[sic] - no doubt you'll want a bird's ey view of the Disfavored turning and running in shame.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 I love this art and wish there was more of it.   The game unfortunately doesn't make a big deal about this, but there are also a ton of civilians who live in the valley and probably lost homes and lives as well. Of course, it's highly likely that's not something our Fatebinder cares about, because to get as far as we have we've had to deal in slaughter and torture just to survive this horrible system.   The dialogue with Calio is the same. I tell her we're not using the Edicts frivolously, because we have a limited power bar and we just uncursed the region we need to feed our "allied" army. We get a bit more because we're allied with the Scarlet Chorus.  I have a much better plan than assaulting Iron Hearth, and I think Nerat will love it too.  I'm sure we're still totally useful and Nerat isn't planning to betray us. : Very well. Tell the Voices I'll meet him at Cacophony. Yea we're totally hosed.  This is, at least, good advice. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Rhogalus replies to our earlier message, and we get a new missive.  If we had Favor 3, we could arrange a duel in Ashweald. This skips the Archon trial as Tunon is pissed, so we're not going to do that. We'll be polite instead. My guess as to what Mark is thinking here is that you are not nearly as useful to him because you fell in with Kyros' schemes - and his end goal is to get rid of Kyros, Nerat, and Ashe because they're all soulless monsters with no principles. Of course, he falls into the same trap the player does and uses the weapons of the tyrant to become the tyrant.  On to the Bastard City...next update.
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Oct 5, 2021 06:50
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: But here, the answer is given to us by the Overlord's own sense of posterity. Year 0 of Kyros' calendar is said to correspond to the day Kyros went from warlord to wearer-of-many-crowns - a victory won when the first Edict of Storms shocked both the Cloud Barons and the Realm of Medrev to capitulate.
: Do you accept damnation? Will you become as Kyros? Will you wield the power of fear and cruelty to preserve your own worthless life, just so you can spend every day doing it again, and again, until human suffering means nothing to you, as long as you can maintain your wealth and privilege?
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Governor Boris and the Unjust Trial Last time on Tyranny, we became the next Kyros. Today we're going to kill Graven Ashe via bullshit show trial. Let's begin!  You can do the trial before dealing with either Ashe and Nerat, and on non-Anarchy paths there's a very good reason to do so.  Yeah, Mark knows exactly what kind of monster you are.  We get the "wow an Archon" chat from Eb and Lantry again, but this time we can bring up our Lawbreaker past.   It begins again. : [Bow to Tunon] : I first want to make it clear why we've assembled today. After the collapse of Vendrien's Well and the start of the civil war, it became clear to me that there must have been some great fault on the part of the Archons.: We come together to root out the source of our troubles, and determine which of the Archons has sown more chaos during the war. We're not going to see this idiot again, so she'll be  .: Tunon turns to aim what you can only assume is a stern look. He refocuses back onto you with cool stoicism.Cool stoicism, really? Oof. : Much has happened since I dispatched you on that mission.: With Kyros' mandate that only one Archon may rule the Tiers, the verdict is now more important than ever. We cannot allow this conquest to descend into total anarchy.What do you think it is now? Remember, Tunon never leaves the court building. The conquest IS total anarchy. we've got people who aren't Kyros casting Edicts, a massive civil war, multiple rebellions we had to put down... the list goes on and on.  I'd forgotten Tunon did this here. : The Scarlet Chorus makes for a strange ally, but I've learned much from them. Blood Mulch will be represented by  as he never appears again and we're reaching the end of the LP.: So you voice no claim of devotion, only their useful function? This is interesting to note.This is what you asked us to do, Tunon! It's not like he has an aversion to using people - on the rebel path he tells you to use the Tiersmen and then dispose of them when they're no longer necessary!  The funny thing is that if we'd said we loved the Chorus we'd still get the opportunity to indict Ashe here, even though as a Chorus fan we have a clear motive to throw Ashe under the bus because we're kind of in a civil war with him. : Graven Ashe, Archon of War.This Archon trial is an unjust farce for a lot of reasons. : And so the charges are declared. I'm confident you've come with prepared arguments and research, as is expected of your station. : Tunon passes her an empty look until she regains her composure, and turns back to you.: In accordance to Kyros' legal custom, you will state the crimes against the Archon and offer up your evidence. The court will weigh your claims on their merits. : Understood. I won't withhold any legitimate claims from the court.We have enough evidence to get Nerat, but I believe Tunon just yells at you if you try to get them both. So yes, we are absolutely withholding evidence here, because we have the tools to make a power play to gain command of the Chorus and use them as our personal army.  : Yes, I'll back up my accusations with hard facts.  : The Archon is guilty of incompetence, Your Honor.: Incompetence on this scale is no laughing matter. Lives and opportunities alike may be lost if a military commander performs beneath their expected rank. It's shocking to imagine Graven Ashe failing at the task before him.Really?  : During the Stalwart campaign, the Disfavored marched on Sentinel Stand even though an Edict was imminent.: I'm familiar with the legion's march. It was a determined mission to rescue a lost unit of soldiers, among them the Archon's daughter. The reports that reached my ears spoke of great bravery, and yet many lives were lost. poo poo. Well, we have more evidence. Note that it's our word of stuff we've seen, but we don't have to produce any witnesses or anything. : I am finished arguing for incompetence, Your Honor. : The Archon is guilty of hoarding forbidden knowledge.: A difficult truth to bring to light. The fact remains that Kyros is the keeper of wisdom across Terratus, and there are avenues of study denied us under her immutable law.: If the Archon of War is educating himself of forbidden matters, then it is worth deeper scrutiny. : I found a dead civilian in the Oldwalls of the Blade Grave. The Disfavored sent him there looking for an artifact. Noticed anyone missing from this trial yet? : This displeases me greatly. If the legion thought they could trespass on the Oldwalls by enlisting another to the task, then they were mistaken. The error in judgment could cost them the Archon's life.That's right! Graven Ashe isn't here to speak in his own defense! We can throw as much poo poo as we want at him, and the only person who will speak up is the Disfavored commander over there, who clearly isn't up to the task of taking on either Tunon or the Fatebinder in a legal battle.  : I have submitted enough evidence for this charge, Your Honor. : I accuse the Archon of sedition most foul.: Sedition, you say? Treachery, rebellion, insubordination. This is a serious claim indeed. Archon Graven Ashe may have an inconsistent history, but his loyal ties to Kyros are well established.It's also hilarious, because Ashe is the guy who stayed loyal to Kyros while our buddy Nerat funded and started the rebellion. We know this because Verse's quest outright tells us this, along with the rebels thanking Nerat and the merchant Bronze confessing that Nerat armed the rebels with iron.  : Graven Ashe exchanged prisoners with the Vendrien Guard, and willfully prolonged the siege. Look at how outmatched this poor woman is here. Give her two sentences and she contradicts herself and damns Ashe further. : If the Great General engaged with the enemy for his own self-interest, then he is not as dependable or forthright as I once imagined. Even in loyalty, he brings great shame to the legion. : Graven Ashe's daughter colluded with the Unbroken, producing an heir. Even Tunon acknowledges this is bullshit, but it's kinda bad, and again - there is no one here competent enough to speak for Ashe. Ashe is a fascist rear end in a top hat, true, and this is a poetic and ironic punishment, but as a form of justice it's a complete clown show.  This is the best this lady can come up with. She is not a trained lawyer and has no prep time. Off the top of my head, a competent attorney could point out that Amelia Ashe was literally held captive in this guy's castle and bring up all the consent issues with that, maybe even in a way that makes Ashe Sr. look competent. Hell, point out that Ashe was so loyal he lost both his children in Kyros' service. However, Ashe isn't here, and can't defend himself, so...  We, the Fatebinder know Amelia really loved him and chose to fight at Herodin's side, but this is a setting with mind control magic and of course the usual forms of Stockholm Syndrome. Sirin is an expert at manipulating people and could be called to the stand right now.  : I make no more claims of sedition, Your Honor.This is a privileged Archon. How many death warrants do you think Tunon signed based on some dude lying about that mean girl Kimmy who wouldn't make out with him?  : The Archon has perpetrated vile acts during this campaign. I accuse him of war crimes.: I see. In a time of war, much is done for the sake of one's loyalties - but there are those who have justified monstrosities in the name of conquest. The court always desires its Archons to fall within Kyros' laws. I would be surprised if Graven Ashe perpetrated misdeeds on this scale. Yeah we're gonna gently caress him up. : The Disfavored encroached on a Scarlet Chorus operation in the Stone Sea. The implication of Tunon's statement is that the civil war is an allowable priority as long as the South is conquered for Kyros. The entire purpose of this trial is to stop the conquest devolving into anarchy...except we have a totally legal civil war. The civil war isn't the insult. It's batshit doublespeak at its finest. 1984 posted:Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink. Kyros' laws are immutable, but the Peace-violating civil war is 100% acceptable if the Disfavored eat their vegetables before their civil war ice cream.  And she blunders right into it again.  : I found evidence in Lethian's Crossing that the Disfavored spilled first blood in the civil war. : Then the ire and conflict between the two armies has deeper roots than what transpired at Vendrien's Well... this is a damning accusation indeed.No, it isn't. Remember, people desert the Scarlet Chorus all the time! We don't know what happened at that massacre site, only that the Disfavored wanted to cover it up. For all we know those Blood Chanters were planning to start a breakaway empire and only the quick-thinking Disfavored stopped them, then panicked because it was a possible violation of the Peace. Remember, the Disfavored are illiterate morons. Again, if Ashe or legal counsel was here these arguments could be made.  : The Earthshakers wanted to use Cairn to blight the Stone Sea and starve Scarlet Chorus soldiers.: Are we not at war with this rabble, Adjudicator? Discuss the legalities of it all you want - the numbers of these red-clad savages needed to be thinned out to bring order to the Tiers. B...but how the gently caress does this work with the totally legal civil war?  What the actual gently caress? So they can have a civil war as long as both sides are equally supplied? : Tunon nods. Agreed. The transgression here is obvious.It's something you won't notice on your first playthrough, because you're worried about Tunon's warning that he WILL gently caress you up for insufficient evidence and you're probably grinning like a moron at the can of whoop-rear end you're going to unleash on ol' Craven rear end. It's really easy not to realize how little sense this all makes and how the Disfavored commander is clearly in over her head.  : I have exhausted my evidence of war crimes, Your Honor. : I have made my case to the best of my abilities, Your Honor.: Very well. I have weighed your evidence against the charges. Yup. Based on the words of one guy who literally works for Ashe's enemy in the inexplicably legal civil war, with no opportunity to defend himself or hire counsel aside from the poor lady who is part of Ashe's embassy to the Court and completely terrible at her job, we just sentenced Ashe to death in absentia. When I said this trial was absolute horseshit I meant it. Remember, this is how the privileged Archons are treated! Remember poor Lady Lucretia who lost her house and got a random farm near the Scarlet Chorus Creeper Camp? She was damned lucky to make it out alive!  This is the best you can do, huh?  Blood Mulch is lovin this poo poo!  So, yes. The way this is supposed to work, a Fatebinder accuses you of some poo poo, Tunon either agrees or disagrees, and then Bleden Mark goes out to go murder your rear end before you even know you're on trial.   : You're to execute the Archon of War, Graven Ashe. : I'll leave it to your expertise. You are the Court's Blade, after all.No wonder Mark thinks the entire system is full of poo poo.  : The assassin shrugs in his offhanded, unconcerned way. He snaps you a passing, wry smile as if to say it's no skin off his back, and then turns to the Adjudicator fully, utterly and wholly dismissive of you.: Go about your assignment, headsman. Trouble the Court no longer with your displays or your bravado, and be quick to return with the guilty party. We will abide here until you return. : The Adjudicator turns to attention[sic] to the Disfavored and Scarlet Chorus petitioners. Even through his stoic mask, the intensity of his gaze is evident.  Now, the thing to remember is that this lady has been at Court at least after Vendrien's Well. Aurora, the first NPC you meet, is also part of this delegation. As far as I know her Disfavored activities have been petitioning and liasoning with Tunon. Her only crime is being a lovely lawyer. : She will forfeit her rank and serve the Court - a grevious indignity.: As fair and compromising as ever. Tunon nods.: Nunoval, escort this one from the Court. The time for discipline and reintegration will come after our business is concluded.I'm pretty sure that means torture. The army delegations leave the Court. : Patience, student. Bleden Mark approaches anon. The Archon of Shadows is as swift as he is deadly. Tunon nods in approval. : With a swift, jarringly shrill hiss of shadows, the Court's infamous assassin cuts from a swath of darkness, coalescing faster than the eye can follow into the form of a man - an Archon - dragging a thrashing, swearing and snarling second Archon with him.  : The... the North will remember this indignity, you ungrateful farce! My legion will come for you, and there will be no shadow dark enough for you to hide from their justice! A fresh wound going down Ashe's face drips blood into his beard, staining it deep red.It's not clear to me what would happen if Ashe asked to present his side of the story. On the Anarchy and Rebel routes Tunon similarly prejudges you but you can ask for the trial and have him declare you innocent. It's not clear if this is a privilege that would extend to Ashe, or if he's just turbofucked and unable to face his death with dignity because he's a coward.  : To see such an Archon brought to his knees is a pitiful sight, indeed. Oh, NOW he recognizes it! What did you do about it? You were the one who broke the truce in the war tent and attacked Nerat, officially kicking off the civil war. Nerat sucks, Ashe sucks, and Boris sucks, but on paper the combined strength of the Scarlet Chorus, Disfavored, and a man who can cast Edicts is a threat large enough that it could snowball into the end of Kyros' empire.  Mark kills Ashe and we don't have to fight him later. We can even loot his artifact mace. We don't get the elixir hidden at the camp, but I'm on easy baby mode so I don't care.  Would have been nice if they played the scream, but this is the reward for Ashe betraying his country to serve absolute evil.  Welp! : You have made quite a name for yourself, Fatebinder. Stories of your deeds have spread throughout the Tiers and all of them have reached this court. Some actions have consequences. We will see what your actions have wrought.Um excuse me, Boris is an Archon now.  : Am I on trial, Your Honor?: Yes, and I would ready yourself to form a defense - because your testimony could augur your doom.Time to go into this trial with no prep!  : Yes, Your Honor.: At least your civility remains intact.We get the same spiel, but I brought Sirin. So Tunon asks, as the last time, for our companion's opinions, and...  Yeah, have you been neglecting the companions and doing poo poo that they hate? They won't hesitate to turn on you here. In Sirin's case we did all that awful poo poo for the Scarlet Chorus like murdering Amelia and ignoring her when she told us that we were doing the most immoral thing possible, and we didn't bother to talk to her or anything. Lantry and Eb give the same glowing recommendations though. Tunon does not react.  It is entirely possible to gently caress up this trial because of your conquest actions. All these options are bad! The first is bad because you should say Edicts ASAP, 3 is bad because they're not covered under Kyros' Peace, and... : The Disfavored were active in the region. I wanted to give them time to pull their patrols back.: Yet they did not. Indeed, did not the Archon of War specifically entreat you to issue the Edict immediately, a request that you ignored? Tunon shakes his head. Do not try to hide behind the shields of the Disfavored, Fatebinder. The Overlord turned her wrath as much on the soldiers who failed her as the Regents who defied her.Didn't we prove that Graven Ashe was a traitor and maybe we shouldn't listen to his requests?  Same question, same answer, next!  Yea, we're pretty much hosed on this one too. : The Archon of Secrets demanded it. How was I supposed to earn his trust if not by indulging his hungers?Remember, our original mission was to infiltrate the Chorus and see what the hell was going on. I have no idea what the hell this became in Tunon Triplethink Territory.  Earlier in the game posted:
Remember, the only way out of killing Zdenya is betraying the Chorus. I think the middle one is supposed to be the mitigation option because it echoes Tunon's language? Earlier in the game posted:I'm not sure why the other option is killing her honestly, but the point stands. If we don't do this, we can't do the mission Tunon explicitly asked us to do!  : It's a tactic I picked up from watching your interrogations.: Tunon says nothing, his alabaster mask expressionless.  Yeah, we're not getting out of this with a not guilty verdict. : You credit me with starting a civil war? Adjudicator, I'm flattered. Cover your rear end, or you might be next! : Tunon motions for silence.: I judge you with failing to execute the most basic duties of your station. Don't make the mistake of inflating your importance in the Court's eyes. Yeah, we can't win this one. : [Attack] I challenge you to a trial by combat. Prepare yourself, Archon.: After everything, it falls to this? I expected more of you, Kyros expected more. This is the only time, as far as I'm aware, that this portrait is used.  Mark is first. Incidentally, if you win the trial Mark comes to kill you anyway and Tunon just says gently caress it and declares trial by combat. : [Say nothing, prepare to fight] It's Tyranny combat. Mark has some unique moves, like an AoE shadow blast and the ability to summon clones of himself. He also screams in agony when you set him on fire, because the game very much does not want you to see this as heroism.  No one is getting a happy ending.  At least Mark is free from the system he hates.: Look at you - the surprise of a lifetime...: He gasps, drowning as his lungs fill with blood. The light in his eye dims as his pupils seep blackness, expanding to fill the whole of his eyes. A look of meaning passes between you, his fingers digging into the ground. I choose to interpret this as Mark realizing that he's looking at the next Kyros and that the system will forever triumph in this Bronze Age land of mass illiteracy. : Don't die too easily. Won't look good for me. : This is your end, student. No mercy for traitors. Only the cold embrace of the grave.: You will be judged at the end of a blade. Same crap, Easy Babby difficulty so he loses a lot of moves.  I've beaten Tunon multiple times and never seen this dialog. : Say what you will, Adjudicator.  This is kind of odd and I believe you only get this if you don't wait for the verdict and start fighting. On the most basic level it's a hint that yes, you can win the trial on any route (although I suspect Sirin sunk us). It shows that we didn't actually beat Tunon by drawing out his doubts - if we get a guilty verdict he realizes that he's defied the laws of nature for too long and Kyros isn't all powerful when you kill him. I think this is him trying to return to his original idealism? Alternatively he's more disappointed than angry at the Fatebinder? Either way it seems like a meta warning from the devs not to skip the trial because you're missing out on some of the themes.   I'm pretty sure this is the same reaction regardless of whether Sirin asked Tunon to execute you for being an evil piece of poo poo or not, and as far as I know you can't bring it up again. You also need her because she's an Archon and allies are thin on the ground right now.  Tunon collapses into the floor and shatters, completely at odds with him raising his arms to the heavens, but very symbolic of the mask being broken. Despite all the doublethink and cruel laws, I still find Tunon an ultimately tragic figure. Pour one out for our buddy. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
On that note we can loot the bodies.  Tunon drops his staff, which is one of the few weapons in the game that deals Corrode (poison) damage. Make of that what you will.  We also get his mask, which has an interesting description. Copied from the wiki which is verbatim the game: Face of Judgment posted:This mask of stern and unforgiving iron was previously worn by Tunon the Adjudicator as a symbol of impartiality. This is entirely consistent with what we've seen. Anyone and anything can be brought down by the law and the proper application of unfair bullshit like in absentia trials, and the threat of Tunon's wrath hangs over the player constantly no matter what they do, even though on paper they're one of the most loyal servants of Kyros.  Ashe has a hilariously named accessory and his mace, which has another description. Peacemaker posted:Before he became an Archon, Graven Ashe wielded Peacemaker in service to his king. Much as the Disfavored could never please Graven Ashe, Ashe would never please Kyros and thus never find absolution from the original sin of betraying his King. Next time: The, erm, alternative way of getting Barik out of his armor.
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Oct 5, 2021 07:46
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: You know, he's right, the laws of quota and sharing state that servants of Kyros will be fed in times of need, so this is a huge legal violation!
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Ooh, do we get a vote on the next segment? There is one option I consider to be highly preferable to the alternatives, even if it kind of goes against the spirit of the game.
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Oct 5, 2021 08:13
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Ooh, do we get a vote on the next segment? There is one option I consider to be highly preferable to the alternatives, even if it kind of goes against the spirit of the game. I only have one option alas. Sorry!
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Oct 5, 2021 08:56
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Wait, does going Chorus route just automatically get you sentenced to death at the end of it?
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Oct 5, 2021 09:44
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:I only have one option alas. Sorry! Aw dang, the trigger is stricter than I thought. Ah well. mortons stork posted:Wait, does going Chorus route just automatically get you sentenced to death at the end of it? No, you can get Tunon to bend the knee if you secure a not guilty verdict on any route, but we saw that in the previous playthrough, so TGEK opted to piss him off this go around. Mark will pick a fight with you on any non-Anarchy route, though.
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Oct 5, 2021 09:50
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Like with all Obsidian games, this game really does have contextual dialogue out the rear end.
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Oct 5, 2021 10:21
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I've also whipped Tunon's rear end plenty of times and also have not seen that dialog.
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Oct 5, 2021 14:29
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Tunon drops his staff, which is one of the few weapons in the game that deals Corrode (poison) damage. Make of that what you will. Also makes the wielder immune to blindness. Which is just straight up a "I know authors that use subtext and they're all cowards" moment right there.
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Oct 5, 2021 18:23
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I’m a little disappointed you didn’t show the dialogue for getting Calio to cast an edict, though I understand that in your game state there isn’t a sensible target.
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Oct 5, 2021 22:20
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Yeah, you can go through the Chorus route and be found not guilty, but Bleden Mark refuses to believe you aren't hopelessly compromised and will always try to kill you. And, like, you gave a baby to a psychopath. There was always another way or a chance to break the alliance. If you stuck with the Chorus then it was because you wanted to, for whatever reason.
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Oct 6, 2021 12:23
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I realized that since this is the last run, I may as well disclose what happens in the Calio conversation if you try to get Calio to cast an edict. Calio is like 'oh poo poo, no poo poo, really? and is all on-board with helping you power-trip and test whether or not she can cast one of your edicts. It fails though, and Calio is very visibly disappointed it doesn't work. I found it adds more interesting context in terms of the relationship you have with Calio and just how eager some people can be to jump ship off of the Kyros train at the first opportunity. Edit: I did enjoy the utter utter farce of the Archon trial.
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Oct 6, 2021 13:02
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Governor Boris and the Cowardly Surrender Welcome back! Last time on Tyranny, we set Graven Ashe up in a show trial so we could eliminate a rival - er, establish Kyros' wise justice. Today we will finish our task of seizing power for ourselves.  Tunon and Bleden Mark are still dead.  The game still tracks Bleden Mark favor in this act 3 random encounter that can fire after you kill Tunon and Mark. I choose to believe the Fatebinders are absolutely terrified after you ganked Tunon, but who knows?  For this next part, we need a companion with either Fear or Loyalty 4. Barik is at max loyalty (somehow) so we are going to bring him along for our confrontation with the Voices of Nerat.  The guards salute us instead of making some idiotic doomed last stand this time. It probably helps that we've been running around helping all of the various Chorus lines and killing all the people they hate.  I really wish there was some way to convey Nerat's gleefully insane laughter through the screenshots.  : We don't have to do this, unless you always do whatever Kyros insists.Nerat and Boris would be better off working together against Kyros, but if you haven't noticed Nerat is kind of a treacherous murderous psychopath.    Nerat is loving losing it right now, as the stress of pretending to be everything to everyone is getting to him.  : [Lie] I would rather supplicate myself before you, Archon.It's not like we have any integrity left anyway.  : No gesture of fealty is complete without its offering. No rings or promises will do - no, the offering must be made sacrifice before us...: A sacrifice he said, and a sacrifice we meant.: The flames licking his shoulder flare up, momentarily forming a pair of question marks. What do you expect is going to happen? Were you not paying attention?  Nerat sums up this path eloquently in a few sentences. We have trampled our morals - if we ever had any - to gain greater and greater power, so what exactly is the sacrifice of a companion here?  Sirin gives us a big hint, presumably to disguise the fact that she just tried to have us killed. Also that first line is hilariously dickish - Sirin is also an Archon. : [Nod to your companion.]: What are you muttering about? If it's anything other than 'goodbye and thank you for your service,' we will be most displeased!: The flames under his robe appear to be burning completely out of control, whipping around his mask and sleeves like green tentacles. : I agree to these terms. You can have one of my companions.Not to be outdone by his earlier actions, Boris heroically throws his last scruple under the bus.  It's interesting that any Fatebinder, no matter how evil, feels the need to apologize to Barik. : Barik, I'm sorry. Like I said, I can't bring myself to hate Barik, because the game is very clear that if he'd been raised as not a fascist he would be a truly noble person. Much like he did for Graven Ashe, Barik is now sacrificing himself for another master who sees him as expendable - but now you are that master. The circle is complete. : Ever the loyalist. Prepare yourself for a second cage, Barik of the DIsfavored.  Barik walks to stand before the Voices.  Nerat hits him with some kind of mind magic.  Barik's dead body crumples to the ground as Nerat clutches his head in agony. Barik is loving dead!  Barik's model bursts from Nerat's body as the game makes it clear some kind of internal power struggle is happening.  Time to go nuts!  Clearly something is going wrong in Nerat's crazy head.  The struggle concludes with Nerat looking at his body as if it weren't his own.  : Barik?This is all with Barik's voice actor, by the way. If you don't have loyalty or fear 4 on the sacrifice, Nerat just eats them and you do the boss fight. I believe Nerat summons copies of the many, many people you sent to their deaths. However, we took the coward's way out and dragged Barik down with us.  So we cynically exploit Barik's devotion to turn him into a monster. Classy! : Are you okay in there? Do you have... things under control? : Well, this is... strange, but I'm glad to have you back. You can help me lead the Scarlet Chorus. It's not much of a compensation for losing the party member and unique magic items, but this is literally the end of the game and there are no fights left.  Whichever Archon is alive last gives you the warning that Kyros' extermination force is on the way. : What would you recommend?: My head is so heavy with ideas that it feels like I'm trapped in armor again. Not all of them are good, either. The Voices of Nerat had some pretty crazy thoughts, most of them having to do with hanging flayed skins.: Were it just me in here, I might say... striking back? That feels right. Sending a message to Kyros.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Yeah, Barik is permadead and we killed him. Were the game longer I'd expect our other companions would be having second thoughts right about now, but Act 3 is kind of rushed unfortunately. Barik's transformation is honestly perfect for the end of Nerat. On a metaphorical level, of course the strain of being all things to all people is tearing Nerat apart (I am reminded of the man who pretended to be insane in a mental institution only to actually go insane) and the reveal of the "true" Nerat as a power-obsessed frothing madman is exactly what we'd expect. Barik becoming the new Nerat makes perfect sense not just on a metaphorical level but on a practical one as well - this is an authoritarian regime where whatever horseshit the leaders trot out needs to be accepted at face value if you don't want to die. Kyros is beyond time? Sure! Kyros is all powerful? Why not. That man in the lovely smelling Disfavored armor is actually the Voices of Nerat? Sounds good to me! The Orphan Master's Son, Adam Johnson posted:The answer, citizens, is that this was not the genuine Commander Ga! Look at the photo of the real Commander Ga on the wall behind this imposter. The man in the picture had broad shoulders, a crenellated brow, and teeth worn down from aggressive grinding. Now look at the spindly man wearing the Commander's uniform - sunken chest, girl's ears, barely the notion of a noodle in his trousers. Certainly it is an insult to do this imposter the honor of being called Commander Ga, but for the beginning of this story it will suffice. In the quoted novel, the protagonist kills Commander Ga and takes his place, and because the citizens of North Korea are conditioned to believe that Kim Jong Un invented the cheeseburger - or rather, because they're conditioned to act that way because their lives depend on it - he can walk into Ga's house and live his life. Practically we condemn Barik to the same fate as Nerat - Barik must be all things to all people if he wants to keep his position, and he must quickly become willing to do the same vile things Nerat was willing to do to keep power.  Seven Toes can't completely hide the cognitive dissonance, but we've come full circle. At the beginning of the game, we were attempting to reconcile Kyros' laws with reality, and now we can force everyone to believe that Barik is Nerat under threat of death.  It's time to deal with Kyros.  : [Relax for a moment, ponder the situation]  This is probably the biggest argument in favor of the interpretation that this was all part of Kyros' secret plan, and it's honestly up to the reader to decide whether the Archon believes this because it's the truth, or because the Archon hasn't fully shaken their conditioning having been raised to believe that Kyros is immortal and all powerful.  Oh come on! : [Affirm your loyalty to Kyros and send news of your successful conquest to the Overlord.]Yeah, we're taking the surrender ending this route. Arcanuse had a great point that we are nominally covered by Kyros' laws and did everything Kyros asked us to do, so Kyros attacking us makes her look like the bad guy in the eyes of the Archons. How well does the game handle this?  It's hilarious that the backing out option is the sensible option, but we're gonna go full Reddit loyalty because after all, it worked so well for Tunon and Ashe, right? : [Speak into the Resonator] In the name of Kyros, I, Boris claim the Tiers for the glory of the Overlord.Of course, the sensible reason to do this is because you don't want a hellwar right now. Half the Tiers are blighted by the Edicts of Storms and Fire, the Scarlet Chorus need time to get used to their new leadership, and the Archon could really use the time to solidify control. : Magnified by the power of the Resonator, your victorious words thunder across the valley, and out to the world beyond. Seconds later, you hear the reverberations of your voice echoing off the mountains. Louder than any stroke of thunder or earthquake, your declaration of triumph rings out across Terratus.  We get two achievements: The Chorus Line is the one for winning with the Scarlet Chorus, and Apocalypse Later is the achievement for surrendering to Kyros.     This is the closest we ever get to seeing Kyros. Don't bother speculating, Kyros is deliberately an archetype.    The loyalist ending kind of wants to have its cake and eat it too. The marketing of the ending was that you are 100% Reddit loyal to Kyros because you didn't get the game at all and thought that Kyros being a peacebringer handing out free food was 100% the actual goal of the Kyrosian regime. If you look at the map, however, the Tiers are explicitly not covered in Kyros' red blood area. The Scarlet Chorus armies are loyal to the Archon, not Kyros, and while on paper Kyros commands here in actuality we can have a big party in the Oldwalls and as long as we keep it officially on the down low Kyros can't do poo poo.   Kyros is forced to acknowledge us because we played by the rules of Archon Club and never actually made a point of rebelling against her. After all, she said we were an Archon and that all the Archons were to kill each other to seize power. We told everyone we did what Kyros wanted us to. Sirin and Nerat show us precedent. Earlier in the game posted: We - and Kyros - know the alternative here. As Arcanuse pointed out, we can start Edict bombing the capital while telling all the Archons that Kyros has broken faith, and hey, that capital is full of loot... This is not to mention we have a fairly large army of professional murderers and sorcerers loyal to us whom we can back up with Edicts, making it so that the Kyrosians would have a fair fight for the first time in centuries.    This gives the "loyalist" game away - you're not surrendering because you really want to get in Kyros' pants or whatever, you're stalling for time while you rebuild your army to take on Kyros and amass more power to fuel the inevitable Edicts you're going to need to win that war. Of course, it doesn't hurt that your army is basically traumatized murderers who don't do well on garrison duty.  Yes, you're just as bad as Kyros.  Having actually centralized power by seizing control of a real army instead of a bunch of nonexistent hobos conjured by the magic of ending slides, we don't have a complete clusterfuck of rebellions but instead a reign of terror.    The racists get their homeland back, but we also gain the farmland necessary to support our new army.  The Stonestalkers are boned, but they don't form a significant portion of your powerbase so who cares.  The ending slides have moments of incoherence like this one, where it really doesn't matter that Radix is dead because Ashe died and they all crumpled like good little fascists.   Not sure why we don't have the option to kill the kid AFTER we throw off the shackles, but my guess is that that would cross the line for the Scarlet Chorus members and we can't afford to deal with that right now.  Once again, the tyrant screws over a bunch of people for the sake of keeping power.  This also seems like something we'd want to fix immediately so we could loot the Sage archives for anything that would be useful for the inevitable hellwar, but who knows? The endings of this game are not entirely consistent.  You've become Kyros! Do you get it, player?   We're even falling into the same trap of screwing ourselves in the long run to maintain power in the short.  I've read rumors you can ignore the event and another Fatebinder defends the tower in your absence, but I'm not sure I believe them.   The game's not even trying to pretend this is some kind of good ending, like it did in the Anarchy path when we unilaterally proclaimed ourselves dictator for life.  We also just reinvent the Kyrosian wheel. Remember, the Archon has been steeped in Kyrosian culture for so long and forced to do so many atrocities that this is going to be their fallback. You do not give a servant of a tyrannical regime the ability to reshape thing in their own image for them to suddenly come up with ideas like habeus corpus or a jury of their peers. Every single "innovation" of this government is just more Tyranny.  Bleden Mark subjected the Fatebinder to brutal training, so it's understandable they have some PTSD about it.  Oh, and Barik turns the Chorus into something far more dangerous than they were before.  Verse continues ganking people as long as we give her money, much like Kyros and the Archons.  I thought we'd get a different ending, honestly.   We don't have high enough loyalty with Killsy to get her to stick around, but we have a threat to scare people with, I guess?  We further traumatized a child. What did you expect would happen?   That's Tyranny! Specifically, the surrender option, which I don't think is as bad as the marketing made it out to be, but it really can't decide whether you've gone full reddit Kyros loyalist or whether or not the entire thing is a ploy to rearm and prepare for the inevitable war. The ending is fitting - a ruined land with the Kyros banner raised over it, and - on the Scarlet Chorus route especially - there is no escape. You are Kyros, from following in her footsteps by raising the Spires to negotiating the loyalty of merciless sociopaths whom you must keep happy to stay in power. There is no hope for anything better on Terratus, simply a revolving horrorshow of whoever the latest tyrant is - and even then, this is the Bronze Age! There are no people writing about the inherent rights of man, and very few people can even read much less argue down a Fatebinder in Tunon's court. There are no concepts of rights at all - even Archons have privileges which can be revoked by Kyros, such as Kyros' Peace or the farce trial in absentia. This ending makes it clearer the Archon is more of the same - disappearances in the night in Lethian's Crossing, retaining the Voices of Barik as spymaster, and even reinventing the same Fatebinder system Kyros and Tunon used to keep order. The player character has become a monster, and their damnation is eternal. I have two more bonus updates. One is the trial of Tunon we never got to see, where Fatebinder Furia gets tried for preventing a rape, and the other is one last retrospective on the game as a whole. Then we'll be done with the LP and I can focus on...ATOM. Oh well!
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Oct 13, 2021 03:14
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: I see. I swore to stand between you and all your enemies, and I will be loyal to the end. I hope you choke on me, Nerat.
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Thanks for LPing! While I didn't take the surrender ending (it's DLC! you can't take it if you don't own Bastard's Wound!) I always felt like Barik becoming Nerat is a very narratively satisfying option. You finally free him of his armor. The Blade Grave's edict continues on - but you've cheated a bit of it in your own way.
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Oct 13, 2021 08:58
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Honestly, the Surrender ending isn't completely out of place, it just needs to allow you to decide if you did it to actually surrender, or did it to stall. Then again, the ending slides in general usually have at least one contradictory gently caress-up in there, so eh. I'm a bit disappointed that Act 3 is so rushed, because it really does feel like what should be the climax. But you knock over the Archons so quickly and consecutively the weight of it doesn't feel very substantial. That was a consistent feeling with the two run-throughs here and my own personal one.
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Oct 13, 2021 09:30
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So, uh, that ending. Possessing Nerat is the one ostensible goal a fatebinder could have when siding with the Chorus, other than deciding that going alone is a bad idea and they’re the less offensive choice compared to the Disfavored. Someone even noticed way back that Nerat has been giving signs he might pop from the beginning. So who you feed to the Voices is probably the most important single choice you can make, and it’s an evil choice at the end of a twisted route. The Voices of Companion is given command of the entire Scarlet Chorus and will give it the organization with which they’re familiar. They also get access to Nerat’s hoard of forbidden knowledge, and are willing to employ both in your service as you can only subsume Nerat with a highly loyal (or fearful?) companion. The Voices of Barik, Verse and Kills-in-Shadow keeps the Chorus as a military, making it more organized, leaner and meaner, or a pack of stalker-hunters, respectively. The Voices of Sirin try to re-establish the Cult of Sirin, which… don’t feed Sirin to the Voices, you monster. The Voices of Eb try to reform the School of Tidecasters, don’t enjoy it, and retire into obscurity, unless you fed the other Tidecasters to Nerat way back in conquest, in which case they’ll enjoy a happy if bizarre reunion and she manages much better than if she were on her own. Lantry, though. If fed to the Voices, he will try to re-establish the school of Ink and Quill and promote a bunch of goons to positions of scribes and researchers as he works to publish all of Nerat’s hoarded lore and discover new drugs, developing a flaming green ink whose effect is left to the imagination. The ending is sorta split on how this works, as his personal projects clearly succeed, but the Chorus is still also a horde of marauders. The Rebel path makes it clear that you’re no revolutionary; you’re just safeguarding the mundane Tyranny of feudalism against the overtly fascist Tyranny of Kyros, but feeding Lantry to the Voices is an actual revolutionary act. Under him, the Chorus is transformed into a nascent form of public education, and all of Nerat’s forbidden knowledge is made public. The Tiers under the Voices of Lantry will churn out an educated populace that knows the secrets of forging iron, tidecasting, and whatever else Nerat had stored away. It’s not even a morally wicked choice once you know what happens; Lantry’s happiest ending is fading into old age peacefully, chronicling your deeds, while the Voices of Lantry are loving stoked to be the Archon of Secrets and devote their immortal life to new ways of getting high and disseminating said considerable hoard of secrets. You still have to debase yourself and everyone else rather thoroughly by supporting Nerat up to this point, but it is the single best thing you can do for the Tiers as far as I can tell. The Voices of Lantry ending implies real positive change, and maybe the point is that it’s stuck at the tail of doing the worst poo poo possible before then, but I think it just doesn’t really fit the tone of the game. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 09:51 on Oct 13, 2021 |
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Oct 13, 2021 09:47
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The Voices of Lantry kind of makes sense when you consider that Nerat made Lantry who he is today, but I agree with you that uplifting the process is an extremely weird result for anything you do in this game. There was precisely one movement that might have been something better, and that's the Unbroken trying to come up with a feudalism free Stalwart. It is crushed by the player every route.
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Oct 13, 2021 19:41
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It's me. I'm the jerk who gave Sirin to Nerat.
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Oct 13, 2021 22:00
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Dude, why?
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Oct 14, 2021 07:29
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I'd never done it before.
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Oct 14, 2021 12:25
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Bonus Update: The Trial of Fatebinder Furia I've mentioned throughout the LP that I've been trying to get this event to fire without success, but I was able to get it to fire by reloading my practice run. We'll be using Cleo as our Fatebinder portrait here because it's the very last update and I don't want to make a bunch more portraits. Sorry! Also, my image processing kinda broke and I realized it at 2AM when my internet went down, so if I missed any miscropped images please let me know!  : No? Perhaps I expect too much of my servants. Is that it? : N-no, Your Honor! But if you hear my testimony, I think you'll understand.  : I am ready to hear the case.: Excellent. The testimony will begin. This means exactly what you think it means. "Defile" is an archaic word for rape, even. : A local from the Tiers? : What happened next?: I fought the recruits. They fought back, but in the end my skills won out. After they were both dead, I let the poor woman go.: Their gang boss witnessed everything, though he didn't intervene until it was all done. I was trussed up and brought back to court in a wagon, where you find me now. Charming.  : [To Tunon] Why isn't the victim of assault a manner of concern? Remember, the basis of Kyros' Peace is that the Overlord has a use for you, not that your life is intrinsically valuable!  Remember this is the remnant of the man who surrendered his nation to Kyros because he believed Kyros' lies about peace, prosperity, and free food. : The gang boss didn't intervene at all? He as much as admits this is abusing the legal process to settle a personal vendetta to save, in his own words, worthless trash (who were also rapists). : All he did was joke about how the court would be merciless. Laughed all the way to the Bastard City. Didn't seem particularly bent out of shape over his lost men. : Did you speak with the Tiers woman? : Understood. Back to my questions. : Do you regret your actions?: She frowns in thought. No. If our positions were reversed, I would have wanted someone to step in on my behalf, Kyros' law be damned.": She glances up at Tunon with momentary unease.I'm guessing that Furia is a newer Fatebinder, because someone like Calio would never be stupid enough to diss Kyros' law in front of Tunon.  : I am ready to give my ruling. Alright, let's take the option that makes Tunon happy. : This is a clear-cut murder of protected subjects. Guilty.: I... I understand your position. I hope you are never placed in mine.Foreshadowing!  : An exacting and literal execution of the law as I could ever give. Thank you for your attention to the case. Dismissed.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
So there was an option to use subterfuge to save Furia, what happens if we do that?  : [Subterfuge 34] You don't think she said anything about wishing to join the army? I don't think Furia is cut out to be a Fatebinder, but we'll get to this after we see all the options. : [Guide the witness.] And she definitely wasn't in the area for that very purpose?: Her eyes widen as she realizes your intent. The Fatebinder nods. That's right. She only mentioned it in passing, but she told me that she was attempting to make contact with the Scarlet Chorus.: You know, to join them. That was when the soldiers attacked.Now, this contradicts her earlier testimony completely, but....  We get a warning from Tunon. Truth be told, I had to steel myself just to pick this option because Tunon's VA is very intimidating and the game is very good at communicating the atmosphere that one misstep means death. The rest of the dialog is the same, but we have a new verdict.  : If the woman intended to join the Scarlet Chorus, she was protected under Kyros' law. Your actions were just. Tunon sees exactly what we're doing and doesn't like it, both because we're subverting the law but also proving that the infallible Law of Kyros can be subverted. Remember, post-DLC Tunon is not a robot who you can dump lore checks into, he is a man under the mask struggling with his doubts about whether the law is correct and whether Kyros really is omnipotent. This entire regime runs on doublethink, so anything that brings the contradiction to mind and creates cognitive dissonance is a big no no in Tunon's court. : Fatebinder Furia, you have ducked Kyros' punishment with a technicality. Be more mindful of your delicate position in the future.: Your grasp of Kyros' law troubles me. It reeks of independent thoughts honed beyond the principled walls of my court. And yet it is your ruling. Dismissed.Tunon says principled, we say ostrich head in the sand. There is a third outcome, which is to dispense with all the guiding the witness bullshit and just rule Furia innocent via pure intent or some nonsense. What if we do that?  : Fights get out of hand all the time. The Fatebinder's intent was pure. She's innocent.: Thank you... thank you so much. Tunon is annoyed, but... we don't get Wrath. I had to double check here. Nope, nothing! What happened? This is an interesting little event for a lot of reasons, and I felt it was important enough to what the game was trying to discuss that I included this update. First, we should notice that Tunon's reply to the player character sentencing Furia to death is the optimal result from a pleasing Tunon standpoint - part of the office of Fatebinder is keeping an eye on those with "independent thoughts honed beyond the principled walls of my court" so they can be eliminated when they have the courage to say "drat the law, I'm doing what's right" to Tunon's face. It's an indirect lesson for the player character, as well - if you get out of line Tunon will have no qualms about sentencing you to death. The trial itself also serves to reinforce Kyros' law - either you take the option of sentencing the Fatebinder to death, or you have to scramble to contrive a defense by guiding the witness to use the Soviet-style buzzword of "Kyros' Peace" which Tunon catches but has to let fly because it is nominally the law. Given all of that, why are we allowed to just declare Furia innocent with a pretext? Tunon clearly if slightly prefers her death, but if we take the difficult route we gain Wrath with Tunon while just going "lol this poo poo happens" lets us and Furia off with no penalty at all. Furia never shows up again in the game, and you can't get her support or anything, nor does this incident appear to ask Calio to testify despite her job being to monitor the other Fatebinders. It's not even like we're really doing an evil flinches when confronted sort of deal, because if you actually confront Tunon he fights to the death. We just kind of handwave something about "pure intent" and the defense grounded in the actual law is the one that pisses Tunon off. You could point out that by judging the Fatebinder in Tunon's court he's stuck with what you go by, but the Fatebinder's internal monologue when high reveals that Tunon can, in fact, overturn Fatebinder rulings. I have legitimately no idea what to make of this option, because it feels so out of place with the rest of the trial. We're not even ceding anything to Tunon's worldview like we are with the other options, where you either cede that this is the crime of murder per Tunon's instructions OR you invoke Kyros' Peace as a legitimate defense. Who knows!
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Oct 20, 2021 00:41
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: Ha ha nope if those two fuckers couldn't fight a highly trained elite law enforcer and win I had no use for em. Still, I'm happy to abuse the law to kill a Fatebinder, LOL!
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Outsmarting Kyros' laws is a hell of a lot more disturbing to Tunon than handwaving is. Handwaving crimes off happens basically all the time, it's hardly threatening to Tunon's worldview.
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Oct 20, 2021 01:35
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JeffRaze posted:Outsmarting Kyros' laws is a hell of a lot more disturbing to Tunon than handwaving is. Handwaving crimes off happens basically all the time, it's hardly threatening to Tunon's worldview. Yeah my interpretation is similar here, where Tunon is a lot more threatened by someone who clearly has enough of a grasp on the law to subvert it vs. a moron who just rules arbitrarily. Like thinking in the long term, the latter just means "well I won't ask them for their opinion again" while the former is someone who almost certainly is going to find more opportunities to do the same thing again in the future.
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Oct 20, 2021 02:12
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On an entirely different note, "Kyros Quest" from before sounds like a fun time. Dibs on whatever magical artifacts makes us the new Kyros
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Oct 20, 2021 07:31
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I think the idea is that if you just declare her innocent, you're effectively declaring it manslaughter--that is, the Fatebinder didn't really intend to kill them, the fight just got out of hand. If you use the subterfuge prompt, though, you're clearly goading her into flat-out making up testimony in order to save her hide through a technicality. Which is interesting, as it implies someone honestly interpreting the law differently than Tunon is something he accepts (as opposed to twisting it to your own ends).
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Oct 20, 2021 14:21
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Also chorus members are kind of known for murdering each other without punishment, so going "eh, sometimes things get out of hand and people die" isn't even without precident.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:23
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Maybe Tunon can overturn Fatebinder judgements, but it's a big enough deal to do so that this just wasn't worth it. He basically gave the trial to Cleo seemingly on a whim. I'm guessing the point of all this was to learn something about Cleo. Getting the ruling right is secondary.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:43
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JeffRaze posted:Outsmarting Kyros' laws is a hell of a lot more disturbing to Tunon than handwaving is. Handwaving crimes off happens basically all the time, it's hardly threatening to Tunon's worldview. Laws are there to serve the people with privilege. Fatebinder is a far higher position than chorus mook, so if a fatebinder feels like murdering a few of them, so be it. The actual reason isn't relevant, only the relative difference in social standing between the parties.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:02
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i tend to agree with the "nah these guys are goons and refused to back down when they should've so they died unnecessarily in a brawl" interpretation. effectively, a fatebinder massively outranks some random chorus rear end in a top hat and they really should listen to her when she tells them to stop. at that point, discipline gets physical. once it gets out of hand and they die, that's a consequence of it getting physical. this is an escalation from an imposition of discipline on the chorus guys interpretation and tunon doesn't seem to think that it's what actually happened but he also doesn't seem to think it's outrageous or especially subversive, especially since the one doing the judgement is herself a fatebinder in the field and has a fair amount of experience with the chorus in practice. if cleo thinks this is a likely scenario - furia tried to just beat them into submission but they kept coming until dead - then tunon isn't too miffed about it. the crime of murder, i.e. going in with the intent to kill these guys, is a different matter. guiding witnesses is bad mojo, but not in a way that tunon can act on without executing cleo for a very grave crime - and he needs cleo to do other stuff.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:37
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There's a lot of interesting interpretations on this case here. I appreciate that people are giving me additional points to think about on this case. It actually does make sense that skipping the skill check pisses Tunon off less than just saying 'nope the deaths don't matter'. It's really easy to forget that for all intents and purposes, Fatebinders do officially have authority over these random mooks. It doesn't work like that in execution of course. But I can see the Tunon logic train of 'Fatebinder gives order to stop, Chorus goons disobey, Fatebinder accidentally kills goons when Fatebinder forces them to stop' to not be intentional murder. It's not what he was thinking, but he can at least understand the logic. Obviously leading the witness to give false testimony is another thing entirely, and pisses him off.
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Oct 20, 2021 21:38
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"...in a tragic Fatebinder-involved slaying..."
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Oct 21, 2021 00:18
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Yeah, I agree with the previous replies; Tunon has a much bigger problem with someone being clever to subvert the law than someone just applying it credulously. He says as much, that he doesn’t trust Furia’s account, but it is the only account the Court is going to hear, and he’s not going to lose sleep over someone taking it at face value. There’s another adjudication that I’ve never seen mentioned anywhere, and I have no idea what triggers it. I think you have to have gone to Azure in conquest and thrown both armies at Cairn to save the town (in which case it remains Plainsgate instead of changing to Halfgate, and there’s a couple more houses instead of a big crater in the corner), and be on the Chorus route. In it, a Blood Chanter tries to sue you for losses incurred during Conquest, and you just happen to walk in while he’s airing his grievances to another Fatebinder, who defers to you. Surprisingly, you come to the conclusion that he has no grounds to sue and find him guilty of wasting the Court’s time with spurious accusations. You’re then given a whole range of options for punishment, including execution, beatings, fines, a stern warning, or letting the other Fatebinder decide. I forget what else, but I think some sort of indentured servitude is also on the table. Literally every option except a small fine will result in the other Fatebinder berating you for being too strict/lenient/lazy, and a pip of Tunon Wrath. Lemme tell you, it is not a fun adjudication to deal with on a zero Tunon wrath run.
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Oct 21, 2021 09:43
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loving typical Obsidian. Make really interesting content with lots of variation and depth, and not finish their poo poo properly. I'm just glad that they mostly finished Tyranny. Act 3 at the end is extremely rushed, but it at least concludes the game properly enough on its themes (even if the ending cards are kind of a disaster).
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Oct 21, 2021 10:56
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