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Whatever legitimate issues may exist with the labour conditions involved in the making of this film, the fact that this is being latched onto by a bunch of weird, anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists should give anyone pause about simply writing the film off without critically evaluating it. Let's be honest: most of the criticism is not reasoned discussion about whether it's acceptable to depict something of this nature in the process of criticizing it, or whether there were adequate protections for child actresses involved in the production, both of which are reasonable questions with no 100% clear answers. The crusade against this film is based entirely in nonsense, conspiracy theories and larger culture wars.
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Sep 14, 2020 18:48
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Trying to prevent child sexual exploitation by keeping children as far away from the public eye as humanly possible is like trying to prevent rape by having women dress modestly. It's never the victim's fault that some criminal, abusive piece of poo poo makes a decision to commit an abhorrent crime. Let's face it: well before the age of 18, children develop some sense of sexuality. It is our job as a society to allow them to develop in healthy ways, and protect them from abuse and exploitation. It's not a child's responsibility to ensure they are safe, it is the job of society to make sure that children are not sexually exploited or abused even as they wrestle with the transition between childhood and adulthood.
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Sep 14, 2020 19:09
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Where are all these QAnon-type crusaders when, say, an adult female teacher rapes a student? The answer is: they're mostly nowhere, because they aren't actually very concerned with child sexual abuse, they are concerned with a culture war. Child sexual abuse is a huge, huge problem but a lot of the loudest voices basically ignore the bits of it which don't fit their narrative.
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Sep 14, 2020 20:24
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TrixRabbi posted:They're here for the puzzle and the stories of underground lairs. Present them with the actual mundanities of real life abuse and they couldn't care less. And the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories! Very fond of those as well, they are...
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Sep 14, 2020 20:43
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At the simplest level, I feel like this film is holding up a mirror to society and a bunch of people don't like what they see and are convinced it's the fault of the evil, bastard mirror, which should obviously be shattered into a thousand pieces for showing such an unpleasant image as we continue to ignore actual problems.
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Sep 15, 2020 04:32
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Let's address those briefly point-by-point: 1) "What if the actresses looked like children but weren't?" That's reasonable if your primary concern is whether the actresses were sufficiently aware of what they were doing, but it's not a defense to the idea that this is a film which sexualizes children and provides wank material for pedophiles, which is one of the primary things that the most outraged-online people are attacking. It seems reasonable, but there's also the possibility that some of the people presenting this solution actually do want to be able to view this content for sexual reasons without feeling too gross about it afterward. More on this when we discuss point 3. 2) The problem with it being a documentary is then you're basically watching these girls doing inappropriate things and the director cannot intervene to say, "holy poo poo, what are you doing putting crotch shots on Instagram? You shouldn't do that!" Or they do, and that issue doesn't get into the documentary. Either way, it doesn't make the same point it did in this film, and strays waaaaay closer to the line of actual exploitation -- and maybe crosses it. These are actresses, and from everything being reported, their well-being was attended to in a variety of ways while on-set. The actresses, while still minors, were older than the children they portrayed from what I've heard, and many of them have probably wrestled with these issues in real life. The things they are doing are not real, any more than an actor portraying a soldier who's been shot has actually been shot. 3) The idea that it would all be okay if this featured slightly older teens is unspeakably gross, because in essence what that says to me is that these people want something they can get a boner from without feeling gross about it. I think this film is acceptable as-is, and I think it would be acceptable if it focused on girls who are slightly older; however, I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea that it would be inherently more acceptable if the children were slightly older, because then it's not really about protecting minors from alleged exploitation (if they're still minors, it's legally and morally the same), it's about making a creep with a boner feel better about it and not have to grapple with what that says about him and our society. As many people have pointed out: this film is about coming of age in a society that treats women as sex objects, at the same time as you grow up in a culture that represses female sexuality, and navigating the issues that arise from that. We aren't meant to feel comfortable about that, we shouldn't feel comfortable about that, and proposing changes which make us feel more comfortable about that is counterproductive to the point the film is attempting to make. I'm still open to the idea that maybe this film ought not have to been made, but with the possible exception of point 1 (from the point of view of how the actresses are going to be affected by this film), these proposed changes would not make it acceptable. And, frankly, I'm sure the reaction to this film is more harmful to the actresses as making the film possibly could have been, so I find it hard to take that suggestion in good faith unless it comes from someone who's offering a nuanced critique of the issues involved instead of one of the moral-panic-warriors.
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Sep 16, 2020 18:31
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Peaceful Anarchy posted:Is that the issue they're claiming to rail against? Some people are, but some people in this thread and the other one were railing against the actual exploitation if children, not the imagery itself. For them fake exploitation can be ok as long as no children are harmed in the making, or a documentary is ok because that exploitation is happening anyway so it's just documenting reality. I understand this point of view but I disagree very strongly with it. A documentary of this would not be okay, because an adult would be obligated to step in. Not because the images become magically more offensive, but because it depicts things that would cause real harm if done in real life. If you saw a minor taking a photo of their crotch, first of all, you would not film it, and second of all, you would step in and stop it for obvious reasons. The question of whether the creation of this film is inherently exploitative is a different one altogether. I'm sympathetic to that argument; namely, that the actresses cannot provide informed consent to filming something of this nature even if it's not sexual abuse, and parents cannot consent to it either. I'm sympathetic to it, but I do not agree with it, and the reason I do not agree with it is that I don't believe this film depicts an exceptional circumstance. I think this film depicts issues which are familiar to girls of the actresses' age in general, and I believe in the presence of adequate support (which I've read was provided) there is no reason to believe the filming of this film caused them any harm or duress. God knows the reaction to the film might be causing harm and duress, but I suppose the most ardent supporters of this moral panic don't really give a gently caress about that, because I don't believe their primary concern is the actresses' wellbeing. pentyne posted:The real issue is less about child exploitation and more the recurring message "girls don't think about sex, until they're old enough to have sex with adult men, in which case they are 100% fully informed to consent" I agree. I believe deeper than that, the fundamental concept of female sexuality in a patriarchal society is one where female sexuality exists to satisfy men primarily or exclusively. Lesbians are okay if they're hot and on camera, since that still gets 'er done. Therefore, the idea that female sexuality exists and develops prior to a point where men can take advantage in a way which is completely legal and absolves them of the shame of getting a hard-on of it is just... unspeakable! Why would such a thing even exist? By contrast, male sexuality exists to be satisfied! Therefore it's cool and good that boys of the same age are clumsily navigating the transition between childhood and adulthood and trying to get laid, the devious little scamps. Never mind the fact that boys can be and are sexually abused by adult women as well. If you want a thought experiment, just think how those films would read if the boys were gay and pursuing men instead of women. Oh! It got uncomfortable again, didn't it? That's probably because the issue has never been about the kids, and I think that's the point this movie is trying to make.
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Sep 17, 2020 07:37
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How did they convince themselves this film has "no serious literary, artistic, political ... value"? You can believe the film made poor choices (I believe it's okay, but I don't have to relitigate that here and now to make my point) but you'd have a hell of a time convincing someone that a Sundance award-winning film about a social/political issue has neither artistic nor political value.
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Oct 6, 2020 23:29
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CelticPredator posted:These people dont look for that regardless. It's always surface level. But saying that makes the argument stick harder. No, that phrase is literally a component of the crime (at least here, and I assume by its inclusion, there as well). Even fully naked minors may be depicted if the work falls into one of those categories, because the law is against "child pornography" not "nude or near-nude children." The prosecution must prove that the work is pornographic in nature and I don't think anyone could make the case that's what happening here, even if one or more pedophiles get a boner.
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Oct 7, 2020 00:46
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