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Yoshi Wins posted:How'd you like this episode, Jerusalem? I like this observation and I agree that recognising Peggy's potential and then intervening to bring her back from oblivion is probably the best thing he has done on the show. I don't think it's purely that he was helping someone who needed help, although at the level I mean that, I'm also saying no act can ever truly be selfless. I think it's a combination of Don recognising something in Peggy, him wanting her talent on his team, and him also being satisfied that he is smart enough to recognise a person like this is important - along with the fact that it is one of the rare times Don is actually looking outside himself and paying attention. The Don/Peggy dynamic does a lot of the work in making Don a sympathetic character, and it's smart of the show to keep it so central because it reminds you why you care about this man. Don has other good moments too, here and there, but having their dynamic be so important to the early part of the show establishes that this is a guy capable of being good for people around him, if only he would make the slightest effort, because we've seen him do it with Peggy. He gets a lot of mileage out of that while mostly behaving poorly. Don and Peggy's relationship is tense most of the time, because they are both very demanding people and Don is only occasionally considerate. This episode portrays all of the ups and downs and them together in one night and I think if Don and Peggy are the heart of the show to a viewer, then its an obvious choice for a best episode in a show that doesn't really do big episodes. It isn't my favourite episode. I don't have one. It's very good though.
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Jul 6, 2021 18:00
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I think Don means that she's the only one who knows his entire story up until he became Don and started his life in new york. He considers that the 'real' him, and the rest of it just an empty suit he wears, which is part of why he is so hosed up in general. He lets himself away with a lot of bad behaviour because he can detach himself from it as not authentic. The 'real' him is the poor boy he was before going to Korea, and Anna knew about that. We can infer that they probably had many long conversations where he divulged the details. It's obviously not really true. He is far more Don Draper than Dick Whitman at this point. Anna knew the boy he used to be, and gets presented a laundered version of who he is today. Nobody really gets the whole picture, and that's because he purposefully conceals at least part of it from everybody. He's ashamed both of who he used to be and who he is now for different reasons, and so swings back and forth mentally and physically from coast to coast for relief. roomtone fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Jul 6, 2021 |
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Jul 6, 2021 19:13
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Oh. I edited it now - the point is just that Anna knew him before he the name Don Draper, anyway.
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Jul 6, 2021 19:29
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I think with the Joey firing, Joan's internalised sexism is working against her. Her usual reprimands and politicking around the office usually work, and would have worked if it was Stan who had hosed up, but Joey shows himself off to be an actual hardcore sexist in this episode. Since everyone is sexist by default in this show, it didn't stick out until he was challenged on it and where someone like Stan, or really most of the guys around the office, would either feel guilty or scared enough to simply apologise and back down, Joey has a deep issue with women. Everything he says in this episode just adds another facet to that - his assumption that people are coming on to him all the time because of his looks, his comment about his mother being 'a Joan', thinking women dressing attractively is signalling their openness to being assaulted, etc. It's not just ambient cultural sexism with him, there's a whole festering pile when you turn over the stone with him. So Joan is just reacting to this like she normally would because it would normally work, but it wouldn't have here and even though yeah it makes Joan and Peggy maybe look a bit worse to the guys, it's probably a hit worth taking in the short term just to send this message that there is a line, and also to get Joey the gently caress out of there so they don't have to deal with him anymore. Peggy made the right decision when it was clear Joey wasn't going to even consider that he was wrong. Despite her being really capable in her domain, Joan's also often really wrong about things and lashes out at the wrong people all the time. I like that about her characterisation because it would have been easy to make her a saint in the face of the bullshit she has to put up with, but she's not. She's learned how to survive in this environment and puts that above everything else, because she's lost sight of anything better. Part of it is also that Joan tried to get Joey fired her way, and it didn't work. She's got some hard limits on what she can do to curate her environment. Peggy doesn't - at least, not the same ones, because Peggy's moved into a different world. They really don't have very much in common at all by this point, even while Peggy still wants to be her friend and ally, Joan's got some resentment about that. Her life doesn't seem to be getting any better.
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Jul 14, 2021 18:48
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I also want to say that I'm enjoying following these. It's funny because following this thread is what led me to getting an account a while ago, because I was watching Mad Men and every episode I had something to say - but by the time I actually got an account, I was way ahead of you and then I finished and I'm back in a Mad Men dormancy phase, so I don't actually feel like making posts about the episodes really, although I'm still reading the recaps and disccusion and I'm sure I will be back at this thread whenever I watch the show again. Season 5's my favourite season.
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Aug 14, 2021 03:53
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I've always liked that Don paid Pete's share of the lifeboat fund. The thing about Don that distinguishes him from other problematic male leads in prestige shows is that he is almost never intentionally malicious, and every once in a while has these gestures of largesse. The problem with Don isn't that he's violent or seeking domination, it's that he's completely possessed by a hollow ideal which is eating away at him every day and is the direct source of all of his bad behaviour. I don't think he consciously realises that, because he identifies the image of Don the family man as the weight he suffers under, when it's actually Don the individualist, but he demonstrates at least an unconscious awareness of it when he makes these gestures of being both kind and reckless with his money/resources, usually at times of great stress. In this case with Pete it obviously serves a purpose in keeping the business going - and if Pete couldn't pay, the rest of them would have to anyway - but he does the same thing with Midge here where there's no practical benefit to it. He's wiping the grime of his infidelity, addictions and self-loathing away with money. It works, until he does the next thing he hates himself for, and then he makes another gesture. Each time he feels like he sheds some weight and 'moves forward', but it's a self-contained cycle where the same things keep happening over and over because his underlying sense of self and purpose is completely vacant. Hm, I started off the post saying Don's really not so bad and then ended up with him being a hollow shell who never learns.
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Aug 22, 2021 12:22
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sebmojo posted:Which ep is tag team Roger and Sally at the big industry event? Has that been? That's season five. As for Betty's characizaition this season, I think it's really funny. Everything she does and says is terrible. Her mistake was taking her chance for growth last season and instead using Henry as her escape hatch, which is just swapping one man for another as her way to define herself. You'd think Betty was waking up to the patriarchy when she finally threw Don out, but she actually just thought it was specifically Don who was ruining her life. If she had a good husband, everything would be perfect. So she gets one, and is confused and pissed off that she doesn't feel that much better. So she's looking for help without admitting she needs it (very clever stealth therapy ruse...) and lashing out randomly at anyone in her orbit. roomtone fucked around with this message at 09:26 on Aug 25, 2021 |
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Aug 25, 2021 09:09
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The transition between the end of the California sequence to the proposal scene has always been weird to me. Maybe it's supposed to be - but I remember the first time I saw it, I didn't even realise that they weren't in the hotel anymore and were actually back in Don's apartment. Then once I realised it, I thought - okay, well it must be been a narrative ellipsis where weeks passed in that fade transition. But now that I think about it, the topaz pantihose meeting happens that weekend and they announce it's success on the same day Don and Megan announce their engagement. So it actually was just a couple of days, after all. I always think about it when I come to this point in the show because Don's love admission there feels like bad writing, at the first impression - but that's only because I'm familiar with characters just wildly attaching to new characters in TV shows when it hasn't been earned. The difference here is that feeling of 'eh?? ...you do?' is intentional. Don's normally so jaded about absolutely everything but from the flashbacks we've seen he wasn't always like that, it was during the years with Betty he drifted that way, so he's probably felt some kind of spark with Megan that he hasn't felt in years and is just grabbing it with everything he's got. The man's high as gently caress. Although, I do like them together in this episode and Megan's gradual then sudden rise to the forefront is cool. roomtone fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Aug 28, 2021 |
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Aug 28, 2021 23:50
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I've got a lot of stuff to say about Megan, but obviously since she's only a major character from the end of S4 onwards it'd just be a wall of spoilered stuff so I'll wait. She's not the main reason S5 is my favourite one, I think it's just a lot of really high quality episodes, but her stories definitely contribute to that.
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Sep 1, 2021 08:01
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Paper Lion posted:theres always a lot of talk about how betty was one generation and megan is another just because theyre such different people, both from you and from other people that talk about mad men. what most people fail to put together is that theyre only born 3 or at most 4 years apart (the show gives two conflicting birthdays for megan). many of their differences are, to me, purely environmental, and signs of how access to higher education (megans dad is a professor after all) starts to influence the broader counter culture, which then seeps into the culture itself your general point is right but i think it's a bit more than 4 years. megan is (mentioned after this episode but i don't think it matters) 26 in season 5, betty i think is supposed to be mid 30's by this point, january jones is just young looking. back then especially, i think the 8 or whatever years between them was significant. betty also had access to higher education - she studied italian at college and speaks it well, so it's not just that either. the environmental thing is really the difference, though. roomtone fucked around with this message at 14:48 on Sep 16, 2021 |
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Sep 16, 2021 14:43
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bloop scroll down
roomtone fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Sep 26, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 09:22
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further
roomtone fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 26, 2021 |
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Sep 20, 2021 09:23
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he was odious. the fever dream in the episode is bad as far as writing goes but it's never truly bothered me because fever dreams actually are that on the nose and ridiculous. i've had ones that directly play on very current anxieties and make me roll my eyes when i wake up. my subconscious is a hack. i like the peggy and sally stuff in this episode quite a bit, and the joan stuff is good just for the fact greg finally gets jettisoned. he really drags down her storylines for the duration of their time together. it wasn't fun to watch joan just try and put up with a complete piece of poo poo. roomtone fucked around with this message at 11:40 on Oct 5, 2021 |
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Oct 5, 2021 11:36
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The Klowner posted:This is a very weird statement to me. The great part about mad men is its refusal to white wash the mundane evil of abusive relationships. Yeah it's not "fun" to watch characters we love suffer or make mistakes, but Greg is an essential part of her storyline and arc. Greg is so one dimensionally lovely at all times. An oblivious, patronising rapist. Joan's been shown to be very intelligent in general but especially in who she does and doesn't let into her life, so the result of this storyline is obvious. I think it drags by keeping Joan in limbo until the writers decide okay, time for Joan to wake up. Which happens in this episode. If there was something about Greg's personality which made it clear why Joan thought it might be worth hanging in there, then it would be better, but we never see a good side of him. I know they are depicting an abusive and lovely marriage and Joan's attempt to force herself to be a mother and wife, I just don't think it was handled as well as it could be. I don't really believe Joan would fall for this particular trap for as long as she did, even in the period setting, with everything else we know about her.
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Oct 5, 2021 18:15
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The Don thing is interesting, because now it seems like that Roger looks up to Don in a way that was ambiguous before this. He obviously likes and respects him but the idea that Don is the rock Roger summons to ground himself here is pretty funny. The line Don uses yeah, is an echo of the toasted pitch, but it's also basically the idealised, advertised image of Don, which apparently Roger either believes in or finds comforting.
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Oct 25, 2021 05:42
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I don't remember if it took me too long to realise it was a replayed day the first time, but I definitely never had a negative reation to the structure. Although, looking back at it, it doesn't really do anything with the overlapping timelines. The three stories barely interact and don't even really comment on each other. After they all leave the office, the only interaction at all is Peggy getting the call from Don - which I think is cool, because of the interjection of unexplained panic into Peggy's basically normal day. I think Roger and Don's stories both benefit from being uninterrupted. Peggy's isn't that distinct, like I said it's just a normal day really, maybe a bit more eventful than usual. Roger's LSD sequence and Don's Spoorloos adventure are departures from the show's usual tone so sticking with the until their conclusions and return to normality makes sense. I think they probably had those Don/Roger, realised what I just said, and thought okay let's do a third and make it an anthology style episode. Mad Men's short story like structure get talked about, and I think this is an extreme example of that. It's three short stories in one episode. Come to think of it, Roger's chunk is like a dream, Don's is like a nightmare. I suppose Peggy's is like...being awake. None of that requires the overlapping timelines, but it adds some intrigue to the episode as you figure out a) what's wrong with don, b) oh we're replaying the day, c) why are we replaying the day? The answer turns out to be for no reason in particular but that doesn't really bother me. I like seeing things from different perspectives. roomtone fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Oct 25, 2021 |
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Oct 25, 2021 13:02
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I don't think it's a baffling interpretation. Like you said, it's a clickbait article and they're just churning out any bullshit to say. Making the observation 'sexism....oof, mad men' is y'know, missing the point completely, but I don't think who-ever wrote that is actually that stupid. They're just words to fill space. You'd have to point to a genuine analysis/observation of the show to make the point that it's still too subtle for most viewers. I don't really think it is, but I don't think it's especially heavy handed either. I think a lot of it is just that the show has a reputation for being smart and when, about half of the time, it's statements and morals are extremely clear, people kind of perk up like 'wait a minute, this isn't beyond me at all'. There's only a few times when the subtext and symbolism of the show really boil over into being so obvious it is actually detrimental to the drama. I think Don's Shelly killing fever dream is one of those times, for example. roomtone fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Dec 13, 2021 |
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Dec 13, 2021 18:10
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good write up for s5 jerusalem. i like to read these while i'm eating dinner sometimes. i've said it before i think but s5 is my favourite season. it's the one i always think of first when i think of mad men just because of how the cast has now expanded (-1) and settled in. the power dynamics have flattened to an extent that interactions between people like peggy and roger are just really fun to watch. i think pete's storyline with beth is one of my least favourites of his. even though it's very in character and demonstrates further that pete will probably never be happy, it's really maudlin. for someone who is apparently as smart and aware as megan is, her decision to pursue acting is such a cliche move for someone in her position and i understand don's disappointment about it. a lot of it for him is that he liked having his wife fully integrated in his life, but i think some of it is also that this is the decision she's choosing to make with her new level of privilege. her getting out of advertising wasn't motivated by any kind of principle or desire for something more meaningful, but just because she didn't feel validated enough by the kind of success she could have doing that. i'm sure don's dominance in her life was pretty suffocating, too, but again, i was expecting something more out of her as a response to that. her glee at being cast in a commercial is kind of pitiful, suddenly invigorated by advertising now that she's in front of the camera. it isn't that i look down on people pursuing acting, it's just that she is only doing this because she has a safety net. it seems like she's just taking the easy road, which i guess is fine, but y'know, a mundane development for her as a person. maybe i'm being harsh. i don't mean this as a criticism of the writing at all but of the character, it's well written.
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Dec 15, 2021 17:12
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This is reminding me of what Don says to Rachel in season 1, 'you're born alone and die alone and society just drops a bunch of rules on you to make you forget those facts, but i never forget'. When he said this, he was mainly putting on what he thought would be an enticing persona for Rachel - who was too smart for that crap, but anyway - I think this is part of Don's pathology. That he is ultimately alone is an affectation he finds comforting in some way. The thing is though, he absolutely did 'forget those facts' for most of this season on his love leave with Megan. You could see that he was flying a lot of the time due to this constant endorphin rush that maybe life with other people wasn't as he had always forced himself to believe it must be, maybe he'd finally found that thing he'd been searching for. It was putting Megan on a pedestal and looking at her as a solution, so of course it fell apart when she started behaving in ways Don didn't expect. It's just a relationship and it won't be the thing to fix him. He's looking for something to grab on to in the wake of that realisation and he finds his familiar old line of bullshit that he never forgets that you are alone in the world. That's what makes the line 'are you alone' at the end and Don's smile work so well.
roomtone fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Dec 16, 2021 |
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Dec 16, 2021 20:10
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Gaius Marius posted:I think this is a misinterpretation in parts, Don does literally believe he's always alone, that's why the guys talk of the fridge gets him so hard. He doesn't want to be alone, but he cannot shake the feeling of being unwanted and unloved even in an intimate relationship. He always feels like he has to sell himself to people, to be what they want him to be, professionally and personally and it leads him into increasingly self destructive spirals as the series goes on. I don't think what we're both saying is really contradictory here, you're just focusing on some stuff from later seasons while I was keeping it to what has been shown on the show up to the end of s5. It's the same general idea.
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Dec 17, 2021 10:43
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stan with a beard is much better than other stan
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Jan 6, 2022 18:46
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kalel posted:I'm showing my rear end because I quickly checked and there is a quick cut like this, but Henry looks, I don't know, amused-shocked? I feel like a detailed rape fantasy joke should evoke a stronger emotional reaction, and his reaction should be the focal point of the scene. If it really is a case where Henry is used to it I'd really like a little more context in the moment to establish that I don't know, I always thought the reaction felt genuine. If someone said that to me out of nowhere I wouldn't immediately spit out my drink and scream 'WHAT?!', I'd be confused more than anything else for a few seconds. Also, when I heard it, I also thought - this is the 60's. I'm not sure, but I think the idea of a man forcing himself on a woman was something people joked about a lot more casually than they do now, so I doubt this is the first time Henry's heard that, just that it is the first time from Betty.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:21
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i thought about that, but there is one scene of him being dickish to his staff in season 4 as well in the scooter pitch episode. it's not out of hand or anything, but clearly a different take on who this guy is in his own space than we're seeing now. i mean there's also the fact that he's been trying to seduce pete and peggy away since then so he's maybe being nicer than he would to underlings he doesn't value? it's a big enough change to foreground that the writers' plan for him changed at some point but not really big enough to break the character, i think. Harry's change from s1 - s2 and beyond is bigger, in the opposite direction.
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Jan 13, 2022 17:11
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i give the nod to pass the heinz in this bake off
roomtone fucked around with this message at 14:32 on Jan 26, 2022 |
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Jan 26, 2022 14:12
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sure okay posted:Regarding Pete and Harry: This is definitely one of the topmost "Heartbreaking: The worst person you know just made an excellent point" moments on the show. Pete is so loving slimy nearly 100% of the time, but for all his lack of character he would never ever defend an assassination. It's both surreal and completely unsurprising a character like Harry doesn't even clear that low of a bar. I think it's because when Pete's all-consuming insecurity isn't a factor, he's capable of discerning right from wrong and behaves accordingly. That's why in the rare times it isn't steamrolling his mind, he can be insightful and even likeable. They put thought into how his mind works and it makes him a lot more engaging than if he was just a poo poo across the board, because people usually aren't like that. Harry on the other hand only has the redeeming quality that he's surprisingly good at his job. They serve different purposes on the show. Pete's a primary character while Harry is a supporting one, so Pete gets the three-dimensional representation and Harry's just a slimeball. I'm sure Harry did or said something good once, but we never see it (at least not since his post S1 brain transplant).
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Feb 3, 2022 23:16
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Scallop Eyes posted:Ginsberg's parts were good too, and I wish they got followed up , I don't remember his personal life (or his father) being shown much after this episode. this is later than where jerusalem is at but I don't mind that they go the serious mental illness route with Ginsberg, the seeds are planted for it, but I really wish they hadn't written him out as early as they did and waited until the last couple of episodes of s7 while keeping more focus on him. The seeds were planted but they didn't really grow the way they could have, and he's one of the best characters who get introduced later on. Always felt like a partially squandered standout to me. The cast just kept expanding and people end up getting less appearances - I think there were even some requirements from the network that they cut back on how many appearance people had to save money. I enjoy watching just about every recurring character on this show, other than probably Greg and Sylvia, and they aren't even in S7. So I can't think of anyone obvious as a cut in favour of Ginsberg, but if we were to say lose Ted Chaough in s7 in exchange, or maybe just write out Ken, I wouldn't be too bothered.
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Feb 4, 2022 13:11
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if don had contained himself at that dinner, and talked with joan about why they should cut jaguar loose, she would have still been angry but i don't think it would be as personal. it's because don, who she's said in the past is 'one of the good ones' and has always seemed to appreciate him, obviously didn't even think about how she would feel. he just hates herb and this was the final straw - and a big part of why he hates herb is what he coerced joan into doing, so he's probably congratulating himself on some level for defending joan's honour at last, but even then, only as a secondary concern. it's selfish and patronising.
roomtone fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Feb 9, 2022 |
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Feb 9, 2022 09:19
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the abe and peggy stuff is probably the worst example of mad men being pro-establishment because they really do write abe like a blowhard in this one regardless of the fact that i agree with everything he says. i'm so glad they did don and betty's one night stand. i don't know why, they're terrible for each other, but it makes me happy. megan's life is depressing. pete's life is a farce.
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Mar 10, 2022 07:50
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Jerusalem posted:Part of my early struggle with this season was just how unlikable Don had become, even moreso than some of the atrocious things he has done in the past. But it is definitely helped by the fact that it all built to Don curled up on his couch, miserable, after being called a monster by a former protege who was previously one of the only positive non-sexual female relationships he's ever had in his life. We've all known that Don Draper can be a giant piece of poo poo over the last six seasons, and that he destroys relationships, but the utter contempt in Peggy's reaction to him is something new. She's dealt with him as an underling, then a peer, but there has always been an underlying respect or need for his approval. That's gone now. Don is just another piece of poo poo male in her eyes now, one she has learned all she can from and now can't even bear to stand to be in the same room with, either from a professional or personal point of view. My issue with S6, although it all eventually works out as you're seeing towards the end of the season, is also how unlikeable Don is. That's why I haven't been posting along as much this season because I would just be saying that sort of thing over and over. I also really don't like Peggy anymore, because now that she's fully established in her workplace role, she's turned into a stodgy landlord who is preoccupied with her love affair with her boss. It's just not a sympathetic position, compared to her in earlier seasons when she was on the rise and then in s4 when she was developing herself personally. She's calcifying into a self-obsessed member of the upper class, still carrying the chip on her shoulder from when she got no respect. So when she calls Don a monster I think, eh, he's broken, and you're becoming pretty unpleasant too, so y'know...gently caress the both of you a bit. It's not a bad season or anything it's just, when I don't have sympathy with the lead character, or Peggy who is maybe the second most important character, and even dislike them for most of the episodes, it's not something I really want to revisit that much. Everything else is still cool but I sort of forget what happens in s6 and what happens elsewhere just because I don't think about it that much. roomtone fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Apr 12, 2022 |
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Apr 12, 2022 04:56
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Those two tracks of utopian thinking (technological, hippie communes) have been shown over time to not lead anywhere within capitalism except their subsumption and exploitation. They grew out of capitalism anyway, relied on it, so of course they didn't end up changing it. I think maybe until the early 2000's people still had the belief that progress was happening at such a clip that any large scale problems would either be preempted or manageable by the time we got there, and that inequality was decling while living standards rose. Now we pretty much know none of that is true, and the perception that it was true was due to advertising, basically. So there's no autopilot from where we are right now to utopia, like it seemed like there was back then because those avenues hadn't had time to play out yet. I think plenty of people out there still believe in these 20th century ideas of human progress, but its due to either basic stupidity, wilful ignorance, or selfishness - when in the 60's, since the way things would play out was unknown, you could legitimately put your faith in these ideas. Maybe young people are more cynical in general - I'm within the millenial age range and I'm pretty cynical but not about the future, only about the way things are. I think my idea of a path towards a utopian society assumes a major collapse at some point in the next couple of decades because I don't see how world leaders are otherwise going to allow any meaningful change, and I don't think there are any obvious weaknesses to be exploited by working people in their operation other than to simply wait it out because there's only so much fuel (literally and metaphorically) for them to burn through before things break down. Maybe automation will do it, but it seems like a certainty to me that capitalists will squeeze everything they can out of that while giving workers nothing until finally there's an uprising out of desperation. Maybe it'll be something else, climate change, or something we don't know about yet. It's not really a lighthearted outlook, but it's not doom and gloom either. I think it's the reason that popular culture has embraced post-apocalyptic fiction so much more over the past 20 years, in contrast to the 20th century optimistic futures people were imagining. A lot more people just feel in their gut that a cataclysm is the only way forward, it's just a matter of when. roomtone fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 11, 2022 |
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Jun 11, 2022 15:52
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yeah no worries jerusalem. said it before it's it's always worth saying again - i enjoy reading the thread and all the various thoughts you have, then others have on your thoughts etc. it's very nice to have a mad men episodic compendium on the forums, and you did that. imagine if we didn't have that. everyone would be asking where the gently caress it was. the latter half of s7 is one of my favouriote stretches of the show, tied with s5, so i'm excited to talk about that.
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Jun 21, 2022 09:13
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i feel like i'm one of few people who the season splitting thing just doesn't bother. i'd rather have shows still be alive as long as they aren't being dragged out so doing 6 eps then another 7 however many months later is fine with me. i also prefer to think of the two halves as one season because i don't like it when tv shows have varying episode lengths. it's okay for revivals, but i like to think of season 7 as just a big bumper finale for mad men and, now that it's in the past, the split has dissolved for me.
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Jul 3, 2022 01:13
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I know he's just a spoiled rich boy, but combined with his jovial personality, Roger's development in the later seasons to being emotionally needy to the point where he's so loyal to Don because he recognises the guy as probably his last best friend is really endearing to me. His family is a mess and even the hate has turned cold with them, probably justly for the way he was when he was younger, and Joan has some hard limits on how close he can get. He deserves everything he's gotten due to his behaviour but at the same time, he's ended up in a kind of graceful place where he's a guy you would actually want in your life. It's just that all the people he'd choose have turned away from him because of how he'd lie and cheat in the past. So the only strong bond he has left is Don, and he knows it, he kind of needs Don to remain on his side or he'll be more alone than he can handle. I guess it just feels like, despite everything, Roger actually learns a few lessons over the course of the show. That's nice to me.
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Jul 4, 2022 09:18
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Paper Lion posted:rogers whole thing is that hes afraid of aging, being irrelevant, dying and not being remembered. all his anxieties tie back into that in some way. he torches his marriage after the heart attack when he can pursue the much younger jane, but that marriage doesnt help him in the long run, everyone in his life starts aging out and dying (his mom, the shoeshine that he was the only customer of which reinforces his fears), he has that reunion with the woman he wanted to be with but she went with the other guy and she comes back for him and at that point hes matured enough to basically tell her "wherever you go, there you are" and knows enough to leave the past in the past. thats the start of his real turning point as in conjunction with LSD and therapy, he gets out of his head about those fears, undergoes ego death and realizes that theres a bit more to all of this. he pretty consistently treats people better across the board (though is still dealing with some of his old anxieties like trying to be around joan, or how he pollutes janes new apartment by loving her there immediately). in the last chunk of the show thats coming up he grows that amazing facial hair!!! fully embracing his age, behaving very gregariously and taking care of the people around him. he tells don he loves him in their last interaction that i can remember, and ends up in an age appropriate relationship with marie, in a comfortable place where they can acknowledge that they have lived their lives but that doesnt mean they have to be elderly either. theyre fully at peace and content with each other, and its a complete change from the desperation to prove himself as a young, important man that we see at the start of the show. that's a great little synopsis of it. it's not dramatic but roger's growth is very nice to see in a series where people often either do not grow, and that's the point, or grow in bad ways. pete's another one i could say nice things about but we'll save that for post-finale.
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Jul 4, 2022 20:17
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Jerusalem posted:I mean we can't discount that a part of what makes Roger's growth feel stronger than Pete's is that Roger is an extremely charismatic person, and Pete is.... well.... Pete! we're getting into the point where this is debatable i just think pete in s7 is an extremely funny and sympathetic man, almost entirely disconnected from that y'know...rapist he once was and roger too, he's just so cute! this year, like i would jump on him with joy like my dog jumps on me. pretty much the only one i don't have a complicated relationship in my mind with is don and...........well. it's season 7 pal. roomtone fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 03:44
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Jerusalem posted:You can see he ALMOST learns the lesson about how to be happy and content as a person and then he throws that all out the window the SECOND he realizes Trudy is also living a happy life utterly independent of him. He was convinced when she kicked him out (which was HIS fault!) that she would get a wake-up call and realize she couldn't exist without him, and discovering that she's just fine and has also moved on without missing a beat drives him insane and causes him to gently caress up his own life, then blame everybody else for it like HE is the victim somehow. oh pete. you sad, sad bastard.
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Jul 5, 2022 09:45
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Jerusalem posted:I mean we can't discount that a part of what makes Roger's growth feel stronger than Pete's is that Roger is an extremely charismatic person, and Pete is.... well.... Pete! this is really the crucial thing roger has in his corner to overcome all of his other many issues. i just love the guy, that's an impossible thing to fake. he's funny, he's easygoing, he's a pleasure to be around when he's not actively loving up. and i think the best part is, he doesn't even know it. he just assumes 'this is the way to behave'. you don't need to show me roger being an account man like they do with pete, i just believe. of course the clients would love him. and add on top of that a late series visit to therapy, acid trip and working his issues out? come on now. if roger had even an ounce of self-confidence, he'd be an amazing leader for this gang of misfits. i think it's pretty telling pete never really approaches roger for friendship, and roger generally thinks he's a little turd anyway, but he DOES approach don and becomes close to him, because he recognises don is a guy who is a-miserable just like-a me! don's really just the middle ground between roger and pete in a lot of ways. roomtone fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 09:49
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Jerusalem posted:I love this, though of course the truer parallel would be if Don had gone out, found other work, been incredibly happy there, gone back into SC&P to pick up the CLIO he left behind by accident, found out the Partners were out at a meeting and stuck around for hours, called his other work to say he was sticking around there to help SC&P win an account, gotten drunk and when the Partners finally showed up screamed that they had no right to keep doing business without him before slamming his CLIO into the IBM 360 and staggering out the door in triumph for having shown them a thing or two this scenario is like walking through a nightmare i'm glad they didn't do this because it would have been too hard to watch. don nearly punching the computer guy and freddy getting him the gently caress out of there was more than enough.
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Jul 5, 2022 11:53
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah, you can see how all of them could take lessons from the other in both ways to be and ways NOT to be, because all three share some common traits and concerns beyond just their work. I do find it fascinating how Pete both appears to look up to Don AND simultaneously looks down on him, he'd clearly like to be a lot like Don (and sometimes thinks he is) but also hasn't been above sneering at him or trying to get one over on him. I wonder how often he vacillates between gratitude to Don for paying his Partnership share and hating him for it, if he ever remembers it anymore? i think in the earlier seasons it was a much more violent back and forth in his mind between 'this guy is a god to me' and 'this guy is a piece of poo poo' at this point, i think we saw this in the burger chef episode and when pete stands up for don (horseflesh), he just respects his abilities and knows better than to get too close. they're friends but they'll never be best friends, and that's honestly more on don than anything else because i think even don would admit he likes pete as a person in his current form, all his many flaws considered.
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Jul 5, 2022 11:55
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Jerusalem posted:I think it's particularly telling how Pete, even at his happiest, acts around Don when Bonnie's there, he's both proud to show her off and terrified that Don's going to "take" her away from him. I think that speaks to an underlying issue with Pete where it's hard for him to get close to people because he's always either thinking,"How can I exploit this person for my own gain?" or "How can I stop this person from exploiting me for THEIR gain, which clearly they MUST be doing, right?", and sometimes both at the same time. the dinner party at trudy and pete's is one of the great scenes of the show. adding on to what you said, i think there's a bit of pete - who is jealous yeah - who looks at don and thinks why can't i feel like he does when he holds my own actual loving daughter, he just naturally slides into this role! god i'm so inadequate!!!! because it's way deeper than the tap incident, of course. but pete also knows don is a very unhappy person just like he is, because he knows his history and can observe his behaviour, he just wishes he had what don has - basically, a deepheld belief that he is important - which pete lacks and is constantly searching for. even though he actually IS important to many people, and at this point has a couple of very good close friends in don and peggy. he's got so much, more than most people get, and it's just never enough for him because there's just this hole deep inside he needs to throw something at, always roomtone fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 5, 2022 |
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Jul 5, 2022 22:26
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