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GreatGreen posted:Thanks for keeping Trump in office by not voting for Biden. well gee, if we have so much power then maybe biden should listen to our demands?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:31
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Popete posted:I can %100 agree with people saying Joe Biden sucks and will not actually bring about any real reform or change in a 4 year term. Where you're losing me is how handing Trump the reigns for another 4 years makes things better. Is this what 4D chess is??? Yeah...if that could have happened we'll be talking about Bernie vs him rn.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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OwlFancier posted:I'm asking because, like, do you not see a conflict between voting for crappy candidates and voting for not crappy ones? Like yeah you can vote left in the primary but if you vote right at the general anyway doesn't that send a much clearer message that nobody needs to tack left? The structure of American politics creates two major parties that hold essentially all national political power between them. It's theoretically possible for a party to collapse completely and be replaced (like what happened to the Whigs), but it's extremely difficult and rare. Meanwhile, we've seen a major political party taken over by an internal movement within just the past decade The racist/nativist wing of the Republicans went from subordinate to the business interests, to vice versa, over the course of the Obama administration. That's why Trump is president instead of Jeb! It's possible to use the same mechanism for positive leftist change in the Democratic party. And, it's much more likely to be effective than voting for a third party that can't hope to hold power at the executive level without winning a majority across the majority of electoral votes. If you really want to break the cycle of running towards the center, look at the Tea Party, and emulate what they did for better ends.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:You are justifying the beliefs of literal Nazis by blaming the Democratic party. How about the counter-narrative of "Jews shouldn't be gassed" you loving idiot. Black man Barack Obama won two presidential terms largely around lying about helping people. I don't think racism is the invincible force in America you seem to think it is. Really it seems like promising to help people cuts across racial divides and unites the people, unless the people in question are hateful old people who already benefit from socialism and seek to deny any aid or comfort to anyone under 50.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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Kreeblah posted:So what you're saying is you didn't read it. It was decided properly on timing and other issues, with support of a Republican who served as legal counsel to Scott Walker (someone whose politics benefit greatly from Greens winning the case). The merits of the dissent were not deliberated. There is probably some validity to what they were ultimately arguing, but it wasn't decided.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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ratbert90 posted:Are we going to vote for the guy who helped push through the votes needed to start the Iraq war, voted for the 94 crime bill, has repeatedly tried to cut social welfare programs, and actively supported segregation until the late 70’s, or Trump? The former, because Trump is worse. I'd rather be shot in the leg than in the head. I'd rather not be shot at all, but with only two choices, the leg. When your house has a massive mold problem and is on fire, you put out the fire first. That doesn't mean you ignore the mold problem, it means you remove what can kill you fastest first.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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Raskolnikov38 posted:wait what How is it stupid? Can't see this far left feminist marxist trash the lyrics promote? Proud of your boy I'll make you proud of your boy Believe me, bad as I've been, Ma You're in for a pleasant surprise I've wasted time I've wasted me So say I'm slow for my age A late bloomer Okay, I agree That I've been one rotten kid Some son, some pride and some joy But I'll get over these lousin' up Messin' up, screwin' up times You'll see, Ma, now comes the better part Someone's gonna make good Cross his stupid heart Make good and finally make you Proud of your boy
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Mondale! We need to beat Reagan! Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Clinton! We need to beat Bush Sr! Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Obama! We need to beat Bush Jr! Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Obama! We need to beat McCain! Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Clinton! We need to beat Trump! Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Joe! We need to beat Trump!
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Sep 30, 2020 05:32
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Nix Panicus posted:Black man Barack Obama won two presidential terms largely around lying about helping people. I don't think racism is the invincible force in America you seem to think it is. Really it seems like promising to help people cuts across racial divides and unites the people, unless the people in question are hateful old people who already benefit from socialism and seek to deny any aid or comfort to anyone under 50. Do you know what the Proud Boys are?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:33
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Really bending over backwards to try to excuse members of a literal Neo Nazi terrorist group. Some "very fine people", am I right? I think we should have leftist antifa candidates that actually fight racism instead of enabling it, which is why I'll never vote for Joe Biden.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:33
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Space Gopher posted:The structure of American politics creates two major parties that hold essentially all national political power between them. It's theoretically possible for a party to collapse completely and be replaced (like what happened to the Whigs), but it's extremely difficult and rare. Meanwhile, we've seen a major political party taken over by an internal movement within just the past decade The racist/nativist wing of the Republicans went from subordinate to the business interests, to vice versa, over the course of the Obama administration. That's why Trump is president instead of Jeb! my new prediction is with the two parties being virtually identical policy wise, one of them is going to go the route of the federalists and eventually just join the other en-masse
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Sep 30, 2020 05:33
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Shammypants posted:There's nothing but risk in your only "card" being 'hope Biden loses.' If Biden wins, and protest/third party voting is low, how does that help progressive politics again? you seem to think progressive policy can only exist and proceed within the framework of the broken US system
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Sep 30, 2020 05:33
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Re-elect Trump or we’ll have an even worse fascist in 2024 is a real galaxy-brain take. Feels vaguely like a threat lol
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Sep 30, 2020 05:33
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fart simpson posted:well gee, if we have so much power then maybe biden should listen to our demands? This is the problem, my dude. What if, and hear me out, Biden crushes it, and Howie gets like, no votes. You know, like he's getting 0% google searches? Your entire political life right now revolves around: (1) the ideal case, Biden loses in a close race and the deciding factor is people like you or (2) biden loses big time and you come around showboating and gloating and making absolutely no friends from it. What if.. you know, that doesn't happen?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:34
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Were all on the same side here. I just thought that we showed unity by cheering for our own side to lose? I mean... that's what the projoes do to the nojoes.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:34
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ratbert90 posted:Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Mondale! We need to beat Reagan! this but unironically
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Sep 30, 2020 05:34
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Space Gopher posted:The structure of American politics creates two major parties that hold essentially all national political power between them. It's theoretically possible for a party to collapse completely and be replaced (like what happened to the Whigs), but it's extremely difficult and rare. Meanwhile, we've seen a major political party taken over by an internal movement within just the past decade The racist/nativist wing of the Republicans went from subordinate to the business interests, to vice versa, over the course of the Obama administration. That's why Trump is president instead of Jeb!
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Sep 30, 2020 05:34
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PerniciousKnid posted:I think we should have leftist antifa candidates that actually fight racism instead of enabling it, which is why I'll never vote for Joe Biden. And what does that have to do with admitting that the farthest right fringe of violent Neo Nazis probably aren't a group reachable through progressive policy, and perhaps their behavior and beliefs can't be explained by "the Democratic Party failed them", especially when the core tenant of that belief is "there are too many minorities and we should kill them." Sometimes its ok to just condemn Neo-Nazis without excusing their behavior or somehow working in a sick burn on the Democratic Party.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:35
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Kreeblah posted:So what you're saying is you didn't read it. I stated what I got out of looking through it, but would you care to enlighten me with your grand wisdom?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:35
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Popete posted:I get that, I feel that too. I just don't understand after everything we've seen over the past 4 years and Trumps dismantling of every institution and decorum and norm and turning the justice department into his personal lackeys, then handing him a victory and affirmation that this was all acceptable will get us anywhere but in a worse place. If Trump gets another 4 years, bolstered by the validation of a 2nd term I don't think we will even have any shred of a real democracy left in 2024 to bring about a sweeping reform candidate. Trump isn't some sort of weird anomaly. He's the natural result of the Dems continuing to tack right and letting the GOP get away with everything they want because they substantively agree on every economic issue. If Biden wins, it's not like the GOP is going to get any better. They're going to keep getting worse.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:35
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fart simpson posted:stop catastrophizing. it isn't mentally healthy That you would tell somebody jewish this makes me think it's your mental health that you should get checked on.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:35
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Ynglaur posted:The former, because Trump is worse. The guy who gave Trump the loaded gun is the DNC. When your house is on fire you don’t hire the guy who doused your house in gasoline and dropped the lit match the job to put the fire out.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:35
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Popete posted:I get that, I feel that too. I just don't understand after everything we've seen over the past 4 years and Trumps dismantling of every institution and decorum and norm and turning the justice department into his personal lackeys, then handing him a victory and affirmation that this was all acceptable will get us anywhere but in a worse place. If Trump gets another 4 years, bolstered by the validation of a 2nd term I don't think we will even have any shred of a real democracy left in 2024 to bring about a sweeping reform candidate. I guess it depends whether you think biden winning will lead to validation of his approach in the democratic party and the production of a similar candidate in 2024 who will lose to the republicans, or whether you think trump will make it literally impossible to have elections in 2024 if he wins. Which is more probable? I guess we'll see.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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Wait, so they want Aladdin the beginning of the film to just stay the same with "boys will just be boys". But his entire character centered around stealing stuff from rich people and occasionally sharing it with the less fortunate. Which is IIRC what his mother wants him to stop doing. Why wouldn't they want Aladdin to change if what he is doing is promoting socialism?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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this is the most important election of your life. biden is running on the campaign platform of YOUR VOTE! you matter! your vote! give it to him! sustain his soul crystal so that his lich energy can ascend to the white house! VOTE!!!!!!!!!
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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Shammypants posted:This is the problem, my dude. What if, and hear me out, Biden crushes it, and Howie gets like, no votes. You know, like he's getting 0% google searches? Your entire political life right now revolves around: (1) the ideal case, Biden loses in a close race and the deciding factor is people like you or (2) biden loses big time and you come around showboating and gloating and making absolutely no friends from it. What if.. you know, that doesn't happen? oh is that why i should vote for biden?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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Does anybody remember the time when worldwide fascism was ascendent and Democrats offered policies that actually helped people and then they held Congress for the next fifty years? Did I dream that?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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this thread has become as terrible as the debate
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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Space Gopher posted:The structure of American politics creates two major parties that hold essentially all national political power between them. It's theoretically possible for a party to collapse completely and be replaced (like what happened to the Whigs), but it's extremely difficult and rare. Meanwhile, we've seen a major political party taken over by an internal movement within just the past decade The racist/nativist wing of the Republicans went from subordinate to the business interests, to vice versa, over the course of the Obama administration. That's why Trump is president instead of Jeb! The Tea Party was complete astro turf to cover for even more concessions to business interests. For fucks sake the Tea in Tea Party was a shoddy acronym for 'Taxed Enough Already'. Trump has been funneling unprecedented amounts of money to the already ludicrously rich with bipartisan support. Your entire theory of power is wrong.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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Kreeblah posted:We saw this tonight, too, with Biden's Louis XIV "I am the Democratic party" poo poo. He aggressively doesn't care about anybody to his left. Winning the election is going to depend on winning the people in the middle, and those who are somewhat to the right of Biden, but are not Trump cultists. Why is anyone surprised that the Democratic establishment is aiming to hit a majority of voters in an election, and not satisfy one small wing of the party? The left alone is not enough to win elections, and we are living in a pretty right wing country. If it were not for COVID, Trump would probably be the favorite to win against any one who ran for the Democratic nomination.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:37
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ratbert90 posted:Now is not the time to vote for change! You need to vote for Mondale! We need to beat Reagan!
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Sep 30, 2020 05:37
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Kreeblah posted:Trump isn't some sort of weird anomaly. He's the natural result of the Dems continuing to tack right and letting the GOP get away with everything they want because they substantively agree on every economic issue. If Biden wins, it's not like the GOP is going to get any better. They're going to keep getting worse. So whats the answer here? Tack even harder right and let Trump further disenfranchise progressive voters? Cause Trump winning reelection only further validates Trumps pushing the boundaries.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:37
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:And what does that have to do with admitting that the farthest right fringe of violent Neo Nazis probably aren't a group reachable through progressive policy, and perhaps their behavior and beliefs can't be explained by "the Democratic Party failed them", especially when the core tenant of that belief is "there are too many minorities and we should kill them." It's important to say the problem is bad, while never ever looking at where the problem came from and assuming it's just an immutable characteristic.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:38
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fart simpson posted:well gee, if we have so much power then maybe biden should listen to our demands? Offering actual policies with substance other than “I’m not Trump?????”
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Sep 30, 2020 05:38
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Shammypants posted:This is the problem, my dude. What if, and hear me out, Biden crushes it, and Howie gets like, no votes. You know, like he's getting 0% google searches? Your entire political life right now revolves around: (1) the ideal case, Biden loses in a close race and the deciding factor is people like you or (2) biden loses big time and you come around showboating and gloating and making absolutely no friends from it. What if.. you know, that doesn't happen? then i'll probably deregister to vote like i was considering a few months ago
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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TyrantWD posted:Winning the election is going to depend on winning the people in the middle, and those who are somewhat to the right of Biden, but are not Trump cultists. Why is anyone surprised that the Democratic establishment is aiming to hit a majority of voters in an election, and not satisfy one small wing of the party? I don't think anybody is surprised about it, I think a lot of people are saying that is literally how it has gone for decades at this point and it hasn't gotten us into a very good position right now.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:The proud boys are not a gang, they are a literal white nationalist terrorist group. They are not the Juggalos. Is this a non sequitur, or does this poster really think Juggalos are a "gang?"
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:And what does that have to do with admitting that the farthest right fringe of violent Neo Nazis probably aren't a group reachable through progressive policy, and perhaps their behavior and beliefs can't be explained by "the Democratic Party failed them", especially when the core tenant of that belief is "there are too many minorities and we should kill them." I voted for the only Jewish candidate in the primary and believe those people you mentioned should be thrown onto a prison island surrounded by battleships to fend for themselves. What exactly is your point here, what is the hinge upon which I, a radically communist, am "owned" JT Jag posted:All this post is making me do is reminding me how horrific Republican governance is and reinforcing my desire for the alternative Very weird how no matter how much you vote against it tho you end up having to settle for it
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Do you know what the Proud Boys are? I get the feeling you reached the opposite side of the "X will get y better /Don't they wouldn't" argument. You don't have to think that Proud aren't bigoted assholes propped by past republican bigotry to think that Democrats having actual good policy would reduce their power. If having Trump not having a president plafotrom impacts people why not the actual people in power doing goods things. No one is claming that Proud Boys are just people who have economic anxieties just that having a good economy for everyone would hurt groups like them from recruiting and forming.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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illcendiary posted:Re-elect Trump or we’ll have an even worse fascist in 2024 is a real galaxy-brain take. Feels vaguely like a threat lol When a bourgeois party can maximize its profitability by leaning into being the role of The Lesser Evil, it becomes clear that it is by no accident that Obama expanded our unaccountable panopticon, built concentration camps, and increased our military force ready for the next greater evil to reach towards and, as it turned out, grasp. Now do you have any reason to believe that Biden would diminish those problems? Or at least prevent them from growing in some way?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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