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The takeaway I'm getting from the thread is that biden doesn't like BLM, environmentalism or decent wages but at least he's not trump? yaaaay
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Sep 30, 2020 03:29
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Biden is... fine. Not great, but fine. Don't listen to the NoJoes. 2024 is going to be interesting.
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Sep 30, 2020 03:37
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GreatGreen posted:What Biden did was pretty smart tonight. The "No Green New Deal" and "No Defunding the Police" stuff was 100% to counter Trump's crazy conspiracy theories he's selling to his base about Biden. I feel like perhaps republican chuds might be able to conceive of joe biden lying?
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Sep 30, 2020 04:08
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nine-gear crow posted:People are mad that the life raft they're being thrown isn't bedazzled with diamonds and will willingly take a gulp of sea water out of spite. I think perhaps a slightly more charitable characterization might be being mad that a bunch of people came by in a big yacht, torpedoed the nice life raft, then threw a shittier one down and drove off while yelling "you should be thankful!"
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Sep 30, 2020 04:11
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Youth Decay posted:Do you really think Sanders (who is notably not that great at debating and has a tendency to repeatedly return to his stump speech when flustered) would have done any better against Trump's bullshit tsunami? I think people seem mostly annoyed that joe biden's apparent entire pitch is "I'm not donald trump" which seems like a rather short term political plan? Like people want improvements, not just... managed decline? No we can't support BLM, no we can't support radical climate action, you must just choose a slow suffocation rather than a quick drowning and if you don't you're the problem. I think getting mad at people for being absolutely sick of that being politics for their entire lives and every meager victory, every paltry holding action being fought with the enthusiasm of a wet rag while any attempt at principled, positive improvement is crushed and belittled as laughable idealism is just... Like who is responsible for that burnout? Who is responsible for people feeling utterly apathetic at only ever being offered "we're not the worse guys" as a choice? How long can that be sustained? Biden might well win, but if he goes on to spend his term suppressing BLM protests and delaying climate action what's 2024 gonna be like? What are the lives of the people you want to vote for him gonna be like? Where is the future gonna be? How long can people offered nothing positive be blamed? You can't make a future just yelling at people who want something and are told from all quarters "no you can't have anything, but vote for my guy!" If biden doesn't get through, or if it's too close for comfort, or if 2024 flips back to someone who will do exactly what trump does, who is going to be to blame? If people watch the debates and come away with the impression that everything is just hosed or that biden doesn't support them, why is that not his fault? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 04:24
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Space Gopher posted:Trump issued an executive order to end DACA. Is biden planning to reform immigration so that people are not living with the threat of the next hostile administration doing that? Cos like "we could deport people but we won't, if you vote for us" seems a bit lovely IMO. Though potentially a very smart thing to do because you can recycle the argument next election. "if you let the republicans in they will deport more people" OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 04:49
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Like I dunno I'm reading up on this daca thing and like, creating a class of people whose right to live in the country is determined by their continued job-having and they can never become citizens or have the right to vote and must continually justify their existence seems pretty bad to me but the guys who created it are the good guys because they're not deporting as many people? And now they're using the people they put in this weird second class citizenship as a political football? I really feel like the people who are a bit pissed off with this whole thing might have a point? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 04:57
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Space Gopher posted:According to his campaign website, yes. OK so if everyone votes biden and he wins what then? If they're only ever going to be "poor" at everything then... doesn't this argument just happen again next election? Do you not think the fact that you need to keep having it is a problem? If it is a problem, what's the solution if you have to keep voting for them regardless?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:06
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Like I can quite believe that if biden wins there will be another election in 2024 and it won't be significantly more or less unfair than any of the previous ones but I really think it's important to ask what's the plan because mediocre democratic presidents seem to result in worse republican ones if recent trends are anything to go by. I think there really needs to be a plan for that and if biden committing to mediocrity and not changing anything is good because he needs the swing voters that seems like it might preclude the development of a plan for the next election?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:11
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Space Gopher posted:Yes, it is absolutely a problem. We should have candidates who will do better than "poorly" on immigration. That's why I protested at the local immigration prison under Obama, didn't vote for Biden in the primary, and will continue to support candidates who will do better than Biden. I'm asking because, like, do you not see a conflict between voting for crappy candidates and voting for not crappy ones? Like yeah you can vote left in the primary but if you vote right at the general anyway doesn't that send a much clearer message that nobody needs to tack left? Like worldwide don't you think there's a story repeated over and over where left representation is utterly disenfranchised and taken for granted by center right types using the threat of the far right during elections and then pandering to them once they're in office? How does that cycle break?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:18
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Popete posted:I can %100 agree with people saying Joe Biden sucks and will not actually bring about any real reform or change in a 4 year term. Where you're losing me is how handing Trump the reigns for another 4 years makes things better. Is this what 4D chess is??? I think the aggravation is that most of the people really stanning biden are seemingly unwilling to perceive burnout as like, a major systemic problem with the process of offering repeated lovely dem candidates in between increasingly horrific republican ones.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:28
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Really bending over backwards to try to excuse members of a literal Neo Nazi terrorist group. Some "very fine people", am I right? Do you not think the people who drafted the aforementioned "no citizenship, only work" "solution" to immigration might also be contributing to racism in the US?
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Sep 30, 2020 05:31
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Popete posted:I get that, I feel that too. I just don't understand after everything we've seen over the past 4 years and Trumps dismantling of every institution and decorum and norm and turning the justice department into his personal lackeys, then handing him a victory and affirmation that this was all acceptable will get us anywhere but in a worse place. If Trump gets another 4 years, bolstered by the validation of a 2nd term I don't think we will even have any shred of a real democracy left in 2024 to bring about a sweeping reform candidate. I guess it depends whether you think biden winning will lead to validation of his approach in the democratic party and the production of a similar candidate in 2024 who will lose to the republicans, or whether you think trump will make it literally impossible to have elections in 2024 if he wins. Which is more probable? I guess we'll see.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:36
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TyrantWD posted:Winning the election is going to depend on winning the people in the middle, and those who are somewhat to the right of Biden, but are not Trump cultists. Why is anyone surprised that the Democratic establishment is aiming to hit a majority of voters in an election, and not satisfy one small wing of the party? I don't think anybody is surprised about it, I think a lot of people are saying that is literally how it has gone for decades at this point and it hasn't gotten us into a very good position right now.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:39
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Popete posted:I believe another 4 years of an embolden Trump will not allow for the continuation of any real democracy. Look at how many Dem candidates have won the popular vote and still lost, it's only going to get worse. I feel like you could also read into that "it doesn't require trump to happen and biden almost certainly won't do anything to stop it happening in future"
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Sep 30, 2020 05:43
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Popete posted:I didn't say Biden was going to resolve anything. The options in my mind are: I guess the problem I have is with the idea of buying time, because people have bought time in many, many elections to this date and the weird thing is that once the immediate threat is gone a whole lot of people suddenly become very Moderate all of a sudden. It is dificult to take the idea seriously at this point.
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Sep 30, 2020 05:46
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