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SL the Pyro posted:Eh, I feel like Rika could've reached out to Satoko while they were still at St. Lucia since that would be the best time to notice "uhhhh my best friend is clearly not okay", but my memory of the St. Lucia episodes is already sketchy. I can't remember if Rika was totally ignorant of Satoko's issues or if she purposely backed off for reasons. Rika was definitely not ignorant of Satoko's struggles in Gou. More than once it was shown that she noticed Satoko looking depressed but all she could muster was a worried expression and never once tore herself away from the other girls to do anything about it. She had basically regressed to the Onikakushi-hen Rika who just sat passively by while Keiichi spiraled and caused a tragedy. It's funny that when she gets pulled back into the death loops she does actually try to resolve her friends' issues but if she had stopped to reflect on the last time she didn't bother she might have figured out why it wasn't working.
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Oct 1, 2021 12:38
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At least Ooishi running into a wall that one time was legitimately funny, I guess.
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Oct 1, 2021 16:54
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By the way, if anyone missed it in amongst the spoiler text, this is really...well, it's interesting. "Good" is subjective.
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Oct 1, 2021 21:11
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J-Spot posted:Rika was definitely not ignorant of Satoko's struggles in Gou. More than once it was shown that she noticed Satoko looking depressed but all she could muster was a worried expression and never once tore herself away from the other girls to do anything about it. She had basically regressed to the Onikakushi-hen Rika who just sat passively by while Keiichi spiraled and caused a tragedy. It's funny that when she gets pulled back into the death loops she does actually try to resolve her friends' issues but if she had stopped to reflect on the last time she didn't bother she might have figured out why it wasn't working. mycelia posted:By the way, if anyone missed it in amongst the spoiler text, this is really...well, it's interesting. "Good" is subjective. I did in fact miss that interview. Thanks for bring that back up. Reading that and J-Spot's post has brightened my opinion a bit. Rika could've touched base with Satoko while at St. Lucia, but she chose not to. It wasn't because she forgot the lessons she learned from Higurashi though, but rather because she remembered them a little too well -- she thinks she knows best. But just buckling down and doing work is how Rika solves her problems; what works for her won't work for everyone, let alone someone who is all but stated to have huge ADHD, and Rika wanting Satoko at her side no matter what blinded her to that. Satoko and St. Lucia simply don't mix, and Rika was pushing her into a life she didn't want. It does still strike me as supremely boneheaded for Rika to not talk things out with Satoko sooner, but this at least provides a reason for Rika dragging her feet that isn't just "Because plot needs to happen, dummy!". That makes me feel a little better.
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Oct 1, 2021 23:16
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I hated the finale up until the epilogue. That was pretty heartwarming. (Also, I really like You. The Sotsugyou rendition was nice.) Also, lol at Satoshi waking up. I honestly can't even remember if it was confirmed he ever regained consciousness after Matsuriyabashi-hen.
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Oct 2, 2021 00:39
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This really should have been a movie. All of the people new to the series who started watching it because they thought it was a remake were introduced in the worse possible way, the gimmick was not worth it. The amount of padding was criminal. Not enough was done to make the twists on the original arcs worth it. The original series' length was justified because of how many mysteries there were. Even if you knew Takano was responsible, there's still Hinamizawa syndrome, Oyashirosama, the curse, the Sonozaki family... Here, once you know that Satoko is the evil leaper and she keeps her memory, there's nothing else. Remember how much fun it was when Rika and friends united against Takano? Going super saiyan after accidentally solving the mystery was so anti-climactic. It would have been great to instead have some degree of cat and mouse between the two leapers. They didn't take advantage of the opportunity at all. It's also annoying how passive Rika was. Why doesn't she ask her friends about the novel she's writing? It reminds me of the first Pokemon movie when Mewtwo makes everyone forget that fighting is wrong. Rika didn't learn anything. The car ride at the end proves that if Rika and Satoko just talked to K1, Mion, and Rena about their problems at St. Lucia they could have avoided the whole thing. Also, I'm not happy at all with Satoko's characterization. She's arguably worse morally than Takano or any other named character. She might as well be a totally new person. I would have much preferred a remake.
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Oct 2, 2021 07:54
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Lol, the Higurashi Mei event for the end of Sotsu is pretty funny. Witch Satoko and Rika burst into some completely random world in the middle of the dbz fight and scare the poo poo out of that worlds Rika and Satoko. Witch Satoko is a total rear end in a top hat to everyone as per usual and Witch Rika gets mad, apologies and makes them leave. The normal duo have a conversation afterwards which is basically "We're never going to turn out that way... right?" "Noooo... we'll be together until the day we die." 
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Oct 2, 2021 10:36
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Dinosaur Satan posted:She might as well be a totally new person. It cracks me up to see places like Reddit where everyone was so excited about the idea of seeing this series connect to Umineko and now they're all upset at seeing Rika and Satoko portrayed as a couple of sociopaths who don't care about anything but each other as if that weren't the obvious endgame.
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Oct 2, 2021 13:53
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Rika not caring about things was the entire premise of Saikoroshi-hen, so it's not like that character flaw of hers just showed up out of nowhere.
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Oct 2, 2021 15:43
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We had I think, a fairly well established "start of darkness" for Satoko turning evil and yeah this typically results in someone being unrecognizable compared to an earlier version of that same person. It's the entire crux of Unlimited Bladeworks between Shirou and EMIYA. At some point over the years Shirou lost his way and became a killing machine, and at some point Satoko despite allegedly I kinda didn't really see where the idea is that Satoko spent a number of loops genuinely trying to make St Lucia work also lost her way and became someone else in an effort to not lose the one remaining precious thing to her in the whole world. We as the audience aren't entitled to beloved characters being immutable and not changing; sometimes for the worse, the author wanted to explore new avenues the story could go and if we don't like it well the Higurashi setting has it as canon that there's multiple timelines so we can just imagine this as a bad end alternate timeline like a WHAT IF story. I'm not convinced the story we got was a good story by any means but I don't think "They made Satoko evil" is a compelling reason as to why the implementation may have been lacklustre. Hilariously speaking of WHAT IF I loved how the Satoko-Rika fight was basically the same as (Marvel's What if episode 8 spoilers) Ultron vs The Watcher fight.
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Oct 2, 2021 19:42
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Dinosaur Satan posted:This really should have been a movie. Higurashi When They Cry Sotsu: it really should have been a movie.
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Oct 2, 2021 23:37
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This pile of crap had some very good OPs.
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Oct 4, 2021 14:39
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You have to admire how the director of the Sotsu OP managed to make it look exciting. "So this season is just reinterpreting the events from Gou followed by a witch battle and the club members showing up with new designs? I can work with that."
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Oct 4, 2021 15:11
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I don't think it got everything but here's a pretty good examination of Sotsu's failures: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmcoWAzLb08 I honestly don't have the investment anymore to really explore all the ways Gou/Sotsu let us down so it's good to see others doing it. Personally, I think the concept was flawed from the start and if we could loop back and try again it'd need to be re-worked from the ground up. Drop the remake angle and focus it more as a sequel with Rika as the explicit main character. Do some brand new arcs and have the Satoko reveal at the mid-point of the series. The rest of the show is the war between the two loopers and focus on the character conflict between the two of them. If you're going to link the series to Umineko/Ciconia actually commit to it instead of just doing unsatisfying teases. Also I agree that Umineko just wouldn't work as an anime. I would trust Passione with it anymore at least.
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Oct 6, 2021 15:47
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Decent video. It's good to see the rare kindred spirit who thinks that trying to connect the WTC series actually makes them worse. The fake remake idea was probably too clever by half, but I think it could have worked better if the answer arcs served a purpose beyond showing us what we'd already guessed had happened. Tatariakashi should have used Satoko's relationships with Teppei and the other club members to really drive home that her obsession with Rika was standing in the way of her own happiness. Then the show could spend the rest of the runtime having her desperately trying to convince herself that being with Rika will make her happy only for the gravity of what she's done to hit her when she reaches the final world and tries to settle down into a normal life. This could have given Satoko a satisfying arc where she realizes herself that she needs to let Rika go. Instead we got a ridiculous DBZ battle where they just sort of tire each other out and then the club members show up to tell us that the moral of the story is that it's ok for friends to grow apart. Said moral completely fails to resonate because the show hasn't actually been about them growing apart since episode 20 of Gou.
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Oct 6, 2021 21:55
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Almost anything would have been better than what they did. Myself and alot of people were excited for Sotsu because of the possibilities Culprit Satoko brought to the table and what you can do with two loopers. The ending of Gou actually set them up in a good position to focus on that since by then we'd pretty had everything explained to us and just needed the payoff. Personally, I would have loved to get more on the perspective of the two loopers and the consequences of their actions. They only barely referenced this and in the end the show seems to vindicate Satoko's perspective that none of it matter which was really bizarre. If you're going to have broken main characters actually do something with it! Oh well, just gotta hope we can get a better version in the manga or fanfiction I guess. I may not agree about connecting the WTC series as a whole, but it definitely is better in Umineko where the connections are just nods and you don't need them to get the plot (in fact meta-knowledge of Bern, Lambda and Featherine will mislead you). In contrast Gou/Sotsu doesn't make much sense if you don't know who Eua is or get all the Witch references. It can't stand on it's own at all. I can't help but feel like Gou/Sotsu ended up as bad fanfiction. It's just aping elements of the WTC series for indulgence or cheap references, it's not interested in telling a real story or caring about the characters. Oh btw, Higurashi Mei is having an Umineko event. Get ready for Rika and Satoko to just dress up as Bern and Lambda finally. 
Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 6, 2021 23:57
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Nephthys posted:In contrast Gou/Sotsu doesn't make much sense if you don't know who Eua is or get all the Witch references. It can't stand on it's own at all. As someone with next to no knowledge of Umineko lore, my perception of Eua is that she was basically just Bored Evil Hanyuu. Higurashi has a supernatural setting with god characters, and "gods being bored and meddling a bit with human affairs" is a tale as old as time. Rika has powers, and with Satoko in a vulnerable state, Eua was in a good position to basically make her own anti-Rika just to see what would happen. Hell, the ending with Rika and Satoko doing the whole "If you go east, I'll go west" deal came off to me as a "I won't chase you. I'll meet you" conversation, which I thought was fun, and I had to be shown the Umineko parallel later on. I don't think you need to know anything about the other series to understand the ending, and I think treating it like a puzzle piece that R07 forced into place is doing it a disservice.
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Oct 7, 2021 00:16
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Takoluka posted:As someone with next to no knowledge of Umineko lore, my perception of Eua is that she was basically just Bored Evil Hanyuu. Higurashi has a supernatural setting with god characters, and "gods being bored and meddling a bit with human affairs" is a tale as old as time. Rika has powers, and with Satoko in a vulnerable state, Eua was in a good position to basically make her own anti-Rika just to see what would happen. Hell, the ending with Rika and Satoko doing the whole "If you go east, I'll go west" deal came off to me as a "I won't chase you. I'll meet you" conversation, which I thought was fun, and I had to be shown the Umineko parallel later on. I don't think you need to know anything about the other series to understand the ending, and I think treating it like a puzzle piece that R07 forced into place is doing it a disservice. That's a fair perspective, I probably should have phrased it differently. It's not that you can't understand her basic role in the plot, it's more that Eua is a character who appears out of nowhere, makes the plot happen out of boredom and refuses to elaborate on anything. Hanyuu does have a backstory and a presence in the story even before she shows up in the original so imo she can stand on her own as a character and doesn't pop into the plot out of nowhere. Eua has no explanation in Gou/Sotsu itself, she's just a Diabolus ex Machina. She's also introduced making a bunch of confusing references that are also never explained. The reason she calls Satoko Vier isn't elaborated on and nobody even asks her to do so even when they really should be wondering wtf she's talking about. It exists solely to make a connection to Ciconia. I've also seen a lot of complaints about Rika and Satoko being out of character as 'witches' when their behavior makes a lot more sense if you already knew where it was likely leading. Like you said, you can do without knowing any of this stuff, but the writing is worse for it imo.
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Oct 7, 2021 00:45
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I'm not sure Eua's role in the story is any better justified even if you have read Umineko. Viewing her as another godly being like the ones in Kamikashimashi-hen sounds like a more satisfying interpretation.Nephthys posted:The reason she calls Satoko Vier isn't elaborated on and nobody even asks her to do so even when they really should be wondering wtf she's talking about. It exists solely to make a connection to Ciconia.
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Oct 7, 2021 14:10
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J-Spot posted:why she looks like more like young Takano than Satoko. See, I was under the impression she was Takanon for years as Higurashi was a Rika/Takano battle of wills and it made sense that they'd chip off into witches that antagonize each other. Was there an earlier warning sign I missed?!
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Oct 7, 2021 19:43
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Das Boo posted:See, I was under the impression she was Takanon for years as Higurashi was a Rika/Takano battle of wills and it made sense that they'd chip off into witches that antagonize each other. Was there an earlier warning sign I missed?!
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Oct 7, 2021 19:59
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Das Boo posted:See, I was under the impression she was Takanon for years as Higurashi was a Rika/Takano battle of wills and it made sense that they'd chip off into witches that antagonize each other. Was there an earlier warning sign I missed?! I'm fairly convinced he decided to retcon it and now it's a mess that makes very little sense. There were plenty of hints connecting Lambda to Takano. The only thing connecting her to Satoko was a reference to Lambda being fooled by the cake puzzle from HIgurashi, but if that's enough to imply two characters are the same then Teppei and Keiichi must also be the same character based on their shared cooking mishap.
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Oct 7, 2021 20:07
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I went looking about and forgot they had the same drat birthday and Lambdadelta being a ding dang pun on Miyo's name. I call shenanigans!
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Oct 7, 2021 20:08
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With the Gou/Sotsu arc title themes of "deception/cheating," I was under the impression that Rika/Takano was 100% the Bern/Lambda battle of the original Higurashi and after Rika won, a higher power altered the rules and the pieces on the same board, creating a new game and manifesting something even greater within the overall metaverse. It is my understanding that prior to the events of Umineko, the actual witches of Bernkastel and Lambdadelta did not exist. Those two characters as we know them now manifesting post-Sotsu from Rika and Satoko doesn't invalidate Takano being the original opponent being played as what we would eventually associate with Lambdadelta. That's my take anyway; I'm no When They Cry expert, so this might have already been explained somewhere lol
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Oct 7, 2021 20:21
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It's been over a thousand years since I read Umineko, but I thought there was some implication that Lambdadelta was the one who gave blessing of "certainty" to Takano to begin with? Meaning that Lambda existed before Higurashi but that Bern came during/after Higurashi. I might just be remembering old fan speculation though.
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Oct 7, 2021 20:26
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Raxivace posted:It's been over a thousand years since I read Umineko, but I thought there was some implication that Lambdadelta was the one who gave blessing of "certainty" to Takano to begin with? Meaning that Lambda existed before Higurashi but that Bern came during/after Higurashi. Yeah there was, which implies a paradox if Lambda was later born from Satoko. Takoluka posted:That's my take anyway; I'm no When They Cry expert, so this might have already been explained somewhere lol J-Spot fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 20:29
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Elephant Parade posted:not really lol. I also assumed Lambdadelta corresponded to Miyo. I'm pretty sure most people did. Hell, I'm pretty sure that was the intent when Umineko was published...? From what I understand, young Takano didn't even get a sprite in Ryukishi's original version of Higurashi released on 2005/6. Lambdadelta first appeared in 2007 which was around the same time the anime was being released. So I don't know if it was even possible for her to look like young Takano on purpose at the time and it was likely done retroactively. Ryukishi has also said that the two looking similar is a red herring and Lambda isn't actually Takano (but then, you can't really trust anything he says in interviews lol). However, Lambda was probably always intended to be connected to Higurashi's culprit in some way given that she's linked to literally every culprit in the WTC franchise and the Umineko manga has Lambda have a flashback of Takano's childhood at one point. My interpretation is that Lambda was 'playing' Higurashi as Takano (it could be she was watching her Hanyuu-style) but doesn't originate from her. She's more like a role an actor would play. After Sotsu, it seems clear that Satoko is the actual starting point. So at some point after Sotsu, Satokodelta goes back and plays the original Higurashi against Featherine. Since she's a Witch, linear time is meaningless to her. Just like how Bernkastel can just go back and save Takano, she can enter a fragment whenever she wants and influence things from there. Edit: Here we go, I thought it was laid out somewhere:  Ignore the steps 10, 11 and 12, this is out of date now. You can substitute them with: 10. Gou/Sotsu happens. 11. Rika and Satoko's Witch sides ascend to the meta-reality and become voyager Witches. 12. Lambdadelta challenges Featherine to a game and they start to play Higurashi. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Oct 7, 2021 |
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Oct 7, 2021 21:00
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am i alone in really disliking all the umineko stuff? maybe it's because i haven't read umineko, but sotsugou and it all being some magic shenanigans kinda sours my enjoyment of higurashi a bit 
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Oct 8, 2021 00:03
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marumaru posted:am i alone in really disliking all the umineko stuff? maybe it's because i haven't read umineko, but sotsugou and it all being some magic shenanigans kinda sours my enjoyment of higurashi a bit Umineko itself is good even if it gets a little too far up its own rear end in the second half. The meta stuff seemed like fun fan service back when I read it but having it bleed back into soutsugou was really detrimental to Higurashi's world and the characters to the point where I wish it wasn't there at all.
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Oct 8, 2021 00:15
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Read Umineko rather than watching mediocre anime imo
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Oct 8, 2021 00:23
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The magic shenanigans have always been something hard to wrestle with tbh. How much can we care about the original question arcs after learning that they're just a few out of thousands of loops Rika has experienced? Can we see a loops characters as disposable to an extent? Objectively each loop is still 'real' with it's own worth but knowing that and believing it isn't the same thing. Sadly when the magic aspect to Higurashi became the focus it was hard for me to see the other characters as being that important anymore. Their issues just aren't on the same level as Rika's. Also everyone should read Umineko, it really is a masterpiece that exceeds Higurashi imo. Nephthys fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Oct 8, 2021 |
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Oct 8, 2021 00:26
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I choose to believe gou and sotsu happened in keiichis imagination of when he was in the hospital
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Oct 8, 2021 04:31
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Here's a big Twitter thread summarizing today's Q&A with R07: https://twitter.com/AnemoneAmenome/status/1446452449045188610?s=20
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Oct 8, 2021 15:39
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Here's a more in-depth transcript of that interview: https://07th-expansion.fandom.com/wiki/October_8,_2021_Livestream
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Oct 8, 2021 19:14
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Not sure how I feel about those Eua-velations
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Oct 8, 2021 19:20
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J-Spot posted:Here's a more in-depth transcript of that interview: quote:Q: Is Satoko Lambdadelta? lol
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Oct 8, 2021 19:46
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quote:Gou/Sotsu is a story of Satoko's growth. quote:Gou/Sotsu is the story of Rika and Satoko mounting each other quote:Hanyuu is a copy of Eua who "bugged" and became a child. quote:As you can see from the flow of the last episode, this may be the root of a story later on. quote:The Fragment world can be interpreted in many ways but also it can be a mind world of trial-and-error. Then you could also treat in the way that she had only killed everyone in her imagination rather than reality. I think lot of people have imagined killing someone in their mind. It's bit similar to that.
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Oct 8, 2021 20:37
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"Hanyuu is a robot" - Confirmed. Good to see that the answer for how Mion was injected was just as obvious as expected.
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Oct 8, 2021 21:43
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J-Spot posted:
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Oct 8, 2021 21:57
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I was hoping Satoko was just able to pass off injecting her friends with a hypodermic needle as one of her pranks.
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Oct 8, 2021 21:58
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