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Natural 20 posted:What attracted me to JJK was the back half of season 1 as I've said before. Which was an ensemble of characters I found interesting that I wanted to see grow from strength to strength with a core of three who I enjoyed, even though the main character was probably the most boring of them. It wasn't some sort of superlative show but I was really loving hyped by Chimera Shadow Garden and the loving double kill at the end was absolutely outstanding. I thought the pacing was really solid as well, with breathing room between arcs, whether it be getting to know the guys from the new school or a loving baseball episode.
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Dec 28, 2023 05:05
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"Hey protagonist i am gonna kill buncha people just to piss u off" is one of the most cliche shonen villain things imaginable
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Dec 28, 2023 05:19
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Subversion also doesn't mean any of it is inherently good.
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Dec 28, 2023 05:56
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Idk about "subversion" or whatever but I really don't like the idea that being willing to tell a story where characters die is somehow inherently a bad thing (game of thrones was pretty gripping for a while! It's honestly kind of a weird thing to evoke as a boogeyman of undesirable writing), and the character writing in s2 certainly feels much more complex and multidimensional than what s1 had going (mechamaru being the most obvious example of this). Maybe I need to rewatch s1 but an awful lot of it I recall as being the show presenting a series of reasonably interesting character concepts and then not doing much at all with any of them. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 05:57
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Panda was cool. I liked panda's character concept. He was featured pretty prominently for a side character. I don't recall any notable story moments or development for him except the one fight he got where his basic concept was explained.
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Dec 28, 2023 06:03
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Tunicate posted:"Hey protagonist i am gonna kill buncha people just to piss u off" is one of the most cliche shonen villain things imaginable Yep. I mean, happens all the time in Dragon Ball. Admittedly, Dragon Ball undercuts itself a bit with frequent resurrections to square the circle of "Death builds excitement" and "Having good characters around builds reader investment", but this sort of thing is one of the classic ways for a villain to get heat.
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Dec 28, 2023 06:22
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Natural 20 posted:Before I got upset at the obvious sexism of it, my immediate reaction to Nobara dying was to just, sigh. It wasn't shock, or outrage. I just disengaged because the character I was looking forward to seeing the most got written out. Ahhh gently caress so much this. But I do wanna keep fucken zooming in on the sexism for another sec because I do not think the folks enjoying this arc are fairly engaging with it. I'm curious if any of the folks whose opinion of this season are positive can also acknowledge how it's sexist as well? Like, ninjewtsu, you threw down a gauntlet about what (exactly) was promising about the writing in s1 and then didn't engage with any of the replies that actually, well, replied to you. What's up with that? I wanna be clear - I don't think the show is irredeemable or that if you like it there's something bad or wrong about you. It's well within the window of things that people can enjoy despite problems with them. I, personally, like plenty of problematic poo poo and JJK is definitely the sort of thing you can like despite its problems. I do think a lot of fans here are really steadfastly unwilling to admit criticisms or to honestly engage with the fact that the show sucks in some ways that a lot of anime sucks and that that's a fucken problem.
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Dec 28, 2023 08:55
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pork never goes bad posted:Ahhh gently caress so much this. But I do wanna keep fucken zooming in on the sexism for another sec because I do not think the folks enjoying this arc are fairly engaging with it. You've just said that anyone who disagrees that the wring sexist is not engaging with the material honestly and are specifically calling out one poster, who in fact did not really get thought out replies on the subject other than " i really don't like Nobara being taken out". What more is there to say when you come in swinging like that?
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Dec 28, 2023 09:16
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pork never goes bad posted:I'm curious if any of the folks whose opinion of this season are positive can also acknowledge how it's sexist as well? i've acknowledged the sexism ninjewtsu posted:it's interesting that everyone seems to have a different core criticism and don't seem to find the other criticisms particularly noteworthy themselves. ninjewtsu posted:idk i don't think i'd call most of the events of the arc cheap shock. but yeah i will again agree that it's very telling that my main qualifier on that would be "you just have to ignore all the parts that focus on women." for me, i kinda felt like that element has been there the whole time really (even in s1 nobara was really criminally underused) so it feels a little weird to just now be seeing it talked about like it's some new crippling flaw introduced by this arc. but yeah, totally get people being put off by that, it's definitely my biggest downer on the show - quality of (most of) the out-of-fight character writing aside. Asuron posted:You've just said that anyone who disagrees that the wring sexist is not engaging with the material honestly and are specifically calling out one poster, who in fact did not really get thought out replies on the subject other than " i really don't like Nobara being taken out". nah there was some good replies: pork never goes bad posted:S1 - huh, Nobara's cool. Her ability looks tailor made to gently caress up one of the main antagonists. And holy poo poo, the ending sequence with Yuji? Def my two fave characters and with such synergistic abilities. And the other women are pretty cool too, with designs that aren't even that sexualized! Maki is awesome and I really wanna see more of Miwa's New Shadow Style battutsu/iaijutsu/whatever-it-is. Both Nobara and Maki, in particular, are written with complex motivations and both are given traits typically excluded from sympathetic female characters in this type of media, where motivations like spite are reserved for the evil shrew archetype and most women are bashful and passive. Maki is shown to be ambitious not for some noble reason, but simply because she's ambitious. She's allowed to just be a person with personal motivations in a way that men consistently are, and women are frequently denied. Rather than being compelled to act by male characters in danger or making demands, the women have motivations that exist because of their backstories and personalities and they aren't put on pedestals as, like, perfect creatures who exist to inspire and be led by the male leads. At this stage, neither character is coded with internalized misogyny to reject their girly sides as weaker or worse, somehow. And they immediately strike up a friendship without any need for the too common girly catfight that's used to prove that Maki is "worth it." That Nobara's probably most significant role model is a woman her age is doubly significant, showing that women can inspire other women and be a source of wisdom and guidance without being on that pedestal - either as some perfect angelic creature, or an otherworldly elder. Nobara and Maki both are written to subvert the meek/bashful writing of so many female characters in Shonen, without being entirely cast as tsundere whose harshness is really, under the surface, actually maternal or romantic love for a male character. They completely buck the Madonna/Whore complex trope. All that said, neither of them has to reject their femininity to be as badass as they are, perhaps Nobara most of all. Rather, Nobara's femininity is confident (she knows she's beautiful! fucken imagine that!!), empowered, and unashamed. They're kinda underpowered compared to the main dudes now but this could absolutely go in two directions with the female characters and fingers crossed it's the good one~~ ! trucutru posted:For the serious/dark themes Junpei getting killed is certainly a highlight. The setup and consequences were well crafted and it gives you a better idea of who mahito, itadori, and sukuna are. In other words, his death was not a cheap plot device. anyways pork never goes bad posted:Like, ninjewtsu, you threw down a gauntlet about what (exactly) was promising about the writing in s1 and then didn't engage with any of the replies that actually, well, replied to you. What's up with that? fair cop tbh i didn't have a ton to say about them other than "thanks, i understand your perspective better now, though i didn't personally put as much weight on those things nearly as much as you did". kinda felt like if i didn't have anything of substance to say i didn't need to bother, but yeah i definitely should've at least acknowledged these replies after i asked that question. especially since clearly a lot of thought was put into them and i'm glad i got to read them. tbh reading them again now i'd say my perspective on specifically the setup of the female characters in s1 has shifted more - it feels less like a difference of opinion and more like yeah you're probably right and i just didn't appreciate these aspects at the time. i can't say my overall opinion of s1 is improved much by it but totally, if your foremost concern is the presence of casual misogyny in the writing i can absolutely see why s2 would feel like a letdown from what s1 set up. i just feel like the way characters were used and explored in s1 wasn't effective at all even if on paper there's some cool stuff there. more than anything though i'm frustrated to see criticisms of s2 that amount to "it's all just meaningless fights" when the writing and weight that is put on and pressed forward by these fights is a large part of why i find s2's storytelling compelling, especially in comparison to s1's which was remarkably unimpressive for me. reflecting on it, that frustration is making me a bit more pointedly dismissive of s1 than is reasonable, so good callout tbh ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 12:51 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 12:45
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mostly i'm finding that maybe i need to set aside time to watch all of jjk from start to end to see how well my impression of it hold up. i was fairly into s1 at the time despite my thoughts on its writing (those fights were sick yo) so i felt like i had enough of an understanding to be confident in my thoughts but you know, clearly there's some stuff i missed. also rewatching s2 would probably be helpful for articulating what i enjoy so much about it, which i wish i could express more in this thread tbh rather than my primary contribution being making GBS threads on s1.
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Dec 28, 2023 12:56
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pork never goes bad posted:I do not think the folks enjoying this arc are fairly engaging with it. Counterpoint: Anyone who thought Nobara was a plot-armored main character were misinterpreting season 1.
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Dec 28, 2023 15:53
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Surprising nobody, s3 confirmed https://x.com/animejujutsu/status/1740392681195569399?s=20
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Dec 28, 2023 16:57
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pork never goes bad posted:Ahhh gently caress so much this. But I do wanna keep fucken zooming in on the sexism for another sec because I do not think the folks enjoying this arc are fairly engaging with it. It is completely fine, and fair, for people not to engage with media in an utterly miserable fashion
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Dec 28, 2023 17:09
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AlternateNu posted:Counterpoint: Anyone who thought Nobara was a plot-armored main character were misinterpreting season 1. that is not the counterpoint i would be making here even if we accept that nobara was foreshadowed in season 1 as a character who's going to die or whatever, tons of characters die in shibuya male or female, the fact that she died isn't the problem. it's the way that she died that was the problem - abruptly after not really doing much, and not in a way that was fitting or satisfying for her character. i.e. the writing did not care about her or her value as a character and her death was reduced down to being a prop for yuji to react to. which is bad for nobara fans and a waste of her character but in a vacuum not necessarily misogynistic - but as part of a larger pattern of female characters not being given the same level of development or story focus it's a really glaring data point, regardless of s1 giving her plot armor or not. she should have at least died in an interesting and satisfying way - or maybe some other female character could've been given the level of focus and build up to their death that nanami, jogo, or mahito enjoyed, or that gojo, megumi, and todo did before being physically incapacitated. like i think if you were a fan of the creepy hand-sword guy for whatever reason you probably got more out of shibuya than if you were following any female character except mei mei, who uh, got some really uncomfortable baggage grafted onto her. the point is nobara can die but she should probably get more focus from the story than creepy hand-sword guy. who iirc is the reason that megumi had to pull out the big monster thing that led to sukuna turning shibuya into a crater. meanwhile nobara as a character i don't think left any real impact on the events of the story, the biggest contribution to the plot she made was briefly spooking mahito i guess in short https://twitter.com/DurationIII/status/1729684275534905458 Oh Snapple! posted:It is completely fine, and fair, for people not to engage with media in an utterly miserable fashion yeah but if you're participating in a conversation about the merits and failures of the execution of the show (in this case in a s1 vs s2 tribal showdown) it's a very fair point to be making and expecting other participants to at least acknowledge. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 17:11
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Oh Snapple! posted:It is completely fine, and fair, for people not to engage with media in an utterly miserable fashion in addition im going to side-eye anyone who chooses the cartoon for 14 year old boys as their moral battleground
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Dec 28, 2023 17:32
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YES bread posted:in addition im going to side-eye anyone who chooses the cartoon for 14 year old boys as their moral battleground This very show displayed that even the cartoons for 14 year old boys don't have to be misogynistic.
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Dec 28, 2023 17:46
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Sexism is when a woman I like in fiction dies.
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Dec 28, 2023 17:59
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Dec 28, 2023 18:09
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which women are dead? Nobara (maybe), Junpeis mom, the girl Gojo and Geto was defending and Maki (maybe)?
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Dec 28, 2023 18:19
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UnderFreddy posted:which women are dead? Nobara (maybe), Junpeis mom, the girl Gojo and Geto was defending and Maki (maybe)? Keep in mind that person might be a manga reader.
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Dec 28, 2023 18:20
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In hindsight, even in season 1 I was surprised Yuji's friends didn't get taken out at the school.
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Dec 28, 2023 18:22
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UnderFreddy posted:which women are dead? Nobara (maybe), Junpeis mom, the girl Gojo and Geto was defending and Maki (maybe)? off the top of my head there's also geto's 2 ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 18:25
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King of Solomon posted:Keep in mind that person might be a manga reader. the manga readers' obsession with spoiling in the anime thread will never end ninjewtsu posted:off the top of my head there's also geto's 2 fangirls who fed sukuna all the fingers, hanami, and that old lady who was a spirit channeler i guess (...she did die right?) oh yeah, was a bit disappointed that was the end of Getos surrogate daughters thing. Felt like they could've been built up to be more, especially as a counter to Gojo raising Megumi.
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Dec 28, 2023 18:26
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UnderFreddy posted:oh yeah, was a bit disappointed that was the end of Getos surrogate daughters thing. Felt like they could've been built up to be more, especially as a counter to Gojo raising Megumi. yeah, and having them around as an attachment to geto's character after he got corpse-jacked would've been nice, especially now that megumi has lost gojo too. they were kinda nothing characters and that's a shame
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Dec 28, 2023 18:36
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Sexism is when a woman I like in fiction dies. it's also when a woman is bad. no other reason for a show aimed at young boys to acknowledge that grown women can be predators, except sexism. i am very smart and sincere
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Dec 28, 2023 18:46
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Sexism is when a woman I like in fiction dies. i mean that isn't the issue because that implies that the issue is a single character or single instance, when the issue is how the work treats female characters in aggregate and how stark the divide is between that and how male characters are treated in aggregate personally it doesn't stop me from enjoying the show because i expected it to come with the territory of shounen, but i mean come on that's not a fair reduction of the problem mei mei having a weird little brother age gap-incest thing going on i find very distasteful and i don't think the concept that fiction should be allowed to explore that subject matter on its own justifies its inclusion. it's not exactly a nuanced dive into the topic of female predators. i mean idk i think i'm more sensitive to that kind of thing than other people around here so maybe it's not a big deal, but this is a topic that i feel ok being a bit overly-sensitive on, and the point i was making was the one female character in the arc with notable screen time is also the one who you have to be ok with the age gap-incest thing to be a fan of. which is not the best when that's the sole female character who has a notable plot impact or amount of emotional focus in the arc. ninjewtsu fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 18:58
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yea lets not act like JJK is doing a public service with Mei Mei's characterization lol
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Dec 28, 2023 18:59
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Just you wait until Mei Mei saves the day by having Ui Ui teleport Sukuna into a bird sanctuary.
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Dec 28, 2023 19:08
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ninjewtsu posted:i mean that isn't the issue because that implies that the issue is a single character or single instance, when the issue is how the work treats female characters in aggregate and how stark the divide is between that and how male characters are treated in aggregate I don't think either of those posters is particularly interested in the topic.
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Dec 28, 2023 19:09
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YES bread posted:i am very smart and sincere i also can't say i super appreciate this when i've been pretty vocally of the opinion that s2 is fantastic and s1's writing was not terribly strong. what insincere angle am i pursuing here???? this is the only topic where i'm saying s2 has some problems.
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Dec 28, 2023 19:10
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Jerkface posted:yea lets not act like JJK is doing a public service with Mei Mei's characterization lol it's mostly gross, i just think the original big analysis post was kind of shallow and it was weird to not even consider any conclusion besides "the woman being the bad one, and the man being the positive (yet tragic) role model is automatic sexism" ninjewtsu posted:i also can't say i super appreciate this when i've been pretty vocally of the opinion that s2 is fantastic and s1's writing was not terribly strong. what insincere angle am i pursuing here???? this is the only topic where i'm saying s2 has some problems. nah youre good man im just half shitposting into the ether. most of your takes seem pretty well thought out to me YES bread fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 28, 2023 |
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Dec 28, 2023 19:11
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Absolutely incredible tweet. Thanks for your further posts on this, I've enjoyed reading them. I was unfair putting the bit about acknowledging sexism and calling you out for not responding to the "promise" stuff right next to each other. I actually knew you'd acknowledged the sexism which was why I was disappointed you didn't further engage, but either way you've been a thoughtful foil for me during this discussion and I appreciate it. Ibram Gaunt posted:Sexism is when a woman I like in fiction dies. I can't even YES bread posted:in addition im going to side-eye anyone who chooses the cartoon for 14 year old boys as their moral battleground YES bread posted:it's also when a woman is bad. no other reason for a show aimed at young boys to acknowledge that grown women can be predators, except sexism. i am very smart and sincere YES bread posted:it's mostly gross, i just think the original big analysis post was kind of shallow and it was weird to not even consider any conclusion besides "the woman being the bad one, and the man being the positive (yet tragic) role model is automatic sexism" If this is your takeaway from my posting idk what to tell you. Brave stance against calling out sexism in media aimed at boys, though! King of Solomon posted:Keep in mind that person might be a manga reader. I'm not a manga reader. I've referenced one manga fact in this discussion under a spoiler tag because it could putatively be offered as a counterexample to me which I learned from unspoilered discussion in this thread earlier. I probably should have just skipped it, though, cause I get that it sucks. Anyway, these will likely be my last posts on the topic because it's kinda shutting down other discussions and I don't wanna take away space for fans to be excited together about something that they love. Like I said, I don't think liking this show makes you sexist or something stupid like that, and I have basically made my point that the show is sexist and some of y'all have made my point that many fanboys of the show can't admit that. I hope the season's conclusion is satisfying for y'all. I am gonna watch the rest and I'm excited to see what Yuki's power is. Heck, if the season ends well I might even be back for S3.
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Dec 28, 2023 19:50
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pork never goes bad posted:I'm not a manga reader. I've referenced one manga fact in this discussion under a spoiler tag because it could putatively be offered as a counterexample to me which I learned from unspoilered discussion in this thread earlier. I probably should have just skipped it, though, cause I get that it sucks. You aren't a manga reader, but the twitter poster is. I actually think it's entirely reasonable for anime onlies to see the pattern the Twitter poster is calling out, the indicators are all there.
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Dec 28, 2023 20:45
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King of Solomon posted:You aren't a manga reader, but the twitter poster is. I actually think it's entirely reasonable for anime onlies to see the pattern the Twitter poster is calling out, the indicators are all there. Ohhhh gotcha, thanks for clarifying. I agree.
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Dec 28, 2023 21:19
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Has anyone watched the finale yet? Not sure how well this works as the capper to a season of anime... the good guys accomplished little to nothing, a lot of them died, and the bad guy implements his grand plan right in their faces. Another one of those things where animating something out to ~10 minutes makes it seem weird that they just stand around and let the villain go ahead and do crazy jujutsu magic on the entire populace of Japan. Why did Yuki even show up to not fight? lol
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Dec 28, 2023 21:54
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I joked about it, primarily because it was the promotional material and fanbase making a bigger deal out of Nobara than the narrative ever tangibly did, but fundamentally JJK is not sexist enough for me to care. When it comes to violence against women in anime, if it doesn't feel gratuitous or titillating, I actually kind of welcome it since having an appealing character design/concept should not be a form of plot armor. Those schoolgirls from Geto's group with sad backstories and powerful character motivations? In and out Gege, in and out. And I'll note this kind of sudden sidelining/death in JJK also happens to guys with similarly interesting character concepts, so it's just being even-handed. That folks in certain online spaces only get hung up on the gals kicking it is, I'm sure, not at all related to why appealing female characters tend to have plot armor in anime. Regarding plot relevance, JJK is a story about dudepunching, in a setting where dudepunching is a male-dominated field between  and explicitly in-universe sexism, which even informs the backstory and disposition of a few female characters. But the author is clearly not interested in having these characters and their experiences be central to the story; rather, their struggles and suffering are used to showcase other facets of how the setting's (and our contemporaries when they mirror) social/power structures are flawed. Because it's a story about a hella flawed system.This approach is entirely reasonable, and I can't find it in me to be upset the author isn't meeting some arbitrary representation quota by having more women be heavy-hitting, core story-movers with fleshed out character arcs. I know we get a couple really cool ones, and I'm good with that much.
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Dec 28, 2023 22:04
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eh maybe too many manga parts touched on for this thread! sorry
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Dec 29, 2023 01:59
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Jerkface posted:Has anyone watched the finale yet? Not sure how well this works as the capper to a season of anime... This is probably something that will flow better on a rewatch when you can immediately play the next episode, but going from constant huge fights to a finale that’s mostly people talking, no matter how big the stakes are, feels underwhelming. It didn’t help that this was, to me, one of the hardest episodes for understanding The Lore in a show that has difficult-to-understand Lore.
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Dec 29, 2023 02:08
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bean mom posted:eh maybe too many manga parts touched on for this thread! sorry eh gently caress it, for those able to watch it, it does a great breakdown of the disappointment of the women of jjk warning: substantial manga commentary https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYd3zw7ZVpo
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Dec 29, 2023 02:15
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so that was an just entire episode of setup for s3 huh kinda disappointing honestly
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Dec 29, 2023 04:32
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