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OwlFancier posted:Perhaps if you punch the head off of anyone who gets too rich you could constitute a material condition that makes being rich impossible, thus necessitating a new organization of society. only im allowed to be rich because my punchwork is never done.
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Oct 12, 2020 22:33
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Sanguinia posted:Probably the single most universally recognized and iconic image of Superman's heroism isn't punching any bad guy, its catching a crashing airplane and taking it safely to the ground. I think the view that Superman's power is violence is a really bleak and cynical perspective. There's a reason this is sort of the iconic modern Superman bit: https://imgur.com/gallery/Ijdxh
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Oct 12, 2020 22:50
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I will echo some of the replies others have posted. This is in essence a child mentally similar to human, which means he can be shaped and molded by nature and nurture. It is important to recognize this and their "humanity" to build a connection. You cannot treat it like some kind of "other." He has to have a family and "tribe" so to speak. The difficulty will definitely come at a time when the child is too young to understand what it is doing, like a super powered tantrum at age 2, assuming the child gets the powers at a young age vs when they are older. I actually think the Farmer life has not been used to it's full potential in his story. Clark's parents are simple and good, doing their best, human, give him a normal loving life and his work on the farm would introduce him on growing crops/raising animals, building a connection with the Earth to understand it in some capacity. In some origin interpretations he is a vegetarian because he can see the aura of living beings so chose not to eat meat. For the questions posed, as with raising a child...how do you allow him or her to have healthy outlets, teach restraint, self control, boundaries, etc? And knowing the child is human, what do you do when they falter? On some level that is with nature depending on how the kid is chemically, like is he or she fully mentally healthy? What are the tendencies? On edge and prone to outbursts or even tempered? Bipolar? That would come from his Kryptonian parents predisposition/make up and in the case of Superman you really lucked out. Another key is motivation. How do you build him or her up spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally so to speak, purpose, goals, something to aspire to in order to reach potential and support that? Superman by his teenage will be so powerful no amount of weights or sports would be a challenge so how is he or she going to remain physically fit besides...I dunno...going off into space and working out on a planet with 100X Gravity like Goku or with a partner? You're also going to have to train him to control his or her powers that you don't understand so he or she doesn't harm someone else unintentionally. Do you really want to put a Messiah Complex on the kid that he is meant to save humanity? I think MOS did a good job in showing the challenges of the Kents and Pa struggling to try to handle it, protecting Clark from the world fearing what would happen if he wasn't ready and exposed when young. What happens when you tell the kid no, and the kid knows if he or she really wants they can get it anyway? And in this case it has to be the child's choice entirely on what kind of future he or she leads. For all the fear of how do you control this power, you have to be careful of bottling it until the pressure builds up. This has to be a person to relate to, of their free will to do better if he or she wants it or gently caress off to super dickery as long as it doesn't harm anyone else. Can't make him or her so much as guide and hope for the best and let go a bit. Which I also agree when people have said like with a zookeeper, you respect the animal knowing it is more powerful than you but you have to let go too. Clark chose to be a reporter so he could get the pulse of what is happening in the world. So he can be at the source of a problem and fix it and also because this way he knows what's happening around him. It would mean he is more understanding of the way the world, politics, etc. works. I also appreciate the comments that show that Superman can be a reflection on the reader and their outlook on humanity or life. Those more cynical and pessimistic believe power corrupts and cannot understand being good without motivation, probably thinking humans are inherently bad/flawed. Can't understand the relatability of a "boy scout" so to speak and it disinterests them. I have a little more faith in people (but lol it is challenged). I'm on the opposite end, similar to a Grant Morrison's line of thinking which is that someone of this potential while also living a normal life as a citizen, he would use his gifts to advance humanity scientifically or otherwise (which would also cause complaints of being unable to relate like how people bitch about Peter Parker being a genius somehow conflicts with his everyman persona or some crap). Clark choses to live a more mundane life because it is who he is and it gives him peace or grounds him versus being something like a revolutionary leader or perhaps taking over the Daily Planet and making it some kind of instrument to achieve his vision, constantly being in the thick of the fight and being consumed. While he is capable of incredibly fast thought, perception, etc. he's got to filter and manage all the inputs coming at him (for a man who can single out Lois' heartbeat in the entire world). It is his healthy outlet to his work as Superman who he uses to inspire hope and strive for better. It also depends on biology. Perhaps Clark with his powers as a kid could build mental connections so fast during that age that by the time he is 12 he is already Reed Richards level genius and can change the world completely. Perhaps he or she can learn much younger and doesn't necessarily need a long time to develop mentally to understand his or her place. Gatts fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Oct 12, 2020 |
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Oct 12, 2020 22:59
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Epicurius posted:There's a reason this is sort of the iconic modern Superman bit: Grant Morrison's version is way better. No knocks on this version though.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:28
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Raise him in a hamster wheel and have him generate electricity. Never let him know about the outside. Name him Omelas.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:37
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Superman could lift a tractor at age 3.you would be dead the next time that todler throws a tantrum, stomps his foot or shits his pants. Imagine that kids playtime with other kids when someone shoves/bites him.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:38
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The issue is the Brightburn issue before the alien killswitch got popped in his head (he's actually Goku, is kind of the twist) and kind of messed up the premise. *Puberty* and nearing that area is the problem, where kids have huge emotional swings without the self control to contain them. He gets a crush on a girl, he super stalks her and throws tantrums when he doesn't get his way and is just creepy, and downright terrifying because he gets drunk on his power. MoS and a lot of modern superman get their powers right around then, meaning that they lived with most of the issues kids have until then, and then develop a bunch of powers that become the *answer* to things like bullying. MoS Clark just had amazing restraint (probably helped that the bullies couldn't actually hurt him at that point), but a lot of kids won't, and thats the big issue.
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Oct 12, 2020 23:44
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Brightburn would have been so much cooler without the alien capsule broadcasting instructions.Pick posted:Raise him in a hamster wheel and have him generate electricity. Never let him know about the outside. Name him Omelas. I get this reference, and I think you would find quite a few people who would agree that this would be acceptable. A limitless energy generator (like the Flash in that horrible Frank Miller sequel) could help solve a lot of problems on Earth, though I still think a very educated/ indoctrinated Superman would be better used ferrying asteroids to a mining station on the moon. Though you would still have to worry about his mental health being alone for weeks/ months/ years with just a rock to talk to
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Oct 12, 2020 23:57
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Grant Morrison's version is way better. No knocks on this version though. All-Star Superman was great. I will say that, while I also liked the Omelas joke, anything that doesn't respect him as a person with automony and free will is doomed to failure from the start. But I think that's true of anybody.
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Oct 13, 2020 01:17
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Ryan is Superman in The Boys. They have the kid dressed in red and blue just like Tom Welling in Smallville, and his mother teaches him to be creative and curious. Not exactly subtle.
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Oct 13, 2020 01:29
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Faded Mars posted:Ryan is Superman in The Boys. They have the kid dressed in red and blue just like Tom Welling in Smallville, and his mother teaches him to be creative and curious. Not exactly subtle. He's like a Superman-Spiderman gestalt in terms of "raised by a good parent" and "act of selfishness has tragic implications". I kind of hope Season 3 doesnt focus too hard on him because "heres a good superhero!" Kind of undermines the message of the series.
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Oct 13, 2020 02:00
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:Grant Morrison's version is way better. No knocks on this version though. I am knocking this version. I'm knocking it a lot. I won't derail this by going into a rant, but JMS was clearly trying to "improve" on Morrisons scene and failed miserably
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Oct 13, 2020 02:29
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Professor Shark posted:I get this reference, and I think you would find quite a few people who would agree that this would be acceptable. A limitless energy generator (like the Flash in that horrible Frank Miller sequel) could help solve a lot of problems on Earth, though I still think a very educated/ indoctrinated Superman would be better used ferrying asteroids to a mining station on the moon. Of course if he listens to the wrong pod cast he might drop that rock on us. Hm. Presumably you'd want Superman to bootstrap things rather than resting everything on him. Like he totes the seed factory to the asteroid and possibly checks up on it while it's all setting up. Honestly this would probably be one of the best 'jobs' for a Superman type in the immediate term on Earth, other than the rescue stuff.
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Oct 13, 2020 02:55
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You don’t raise Superman. Superman is gnostic space Jesus. A divine being taking human form.
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Oct 13, 2020 03:45
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 also Neurolimal posted:He's like a Superman-Spiderman gestalt in terms of "raised by a good parent" and "act of selfishness has tragic implications". I kind of hope Season 3 doesnt focus too hard on him because "heres a good superhero!" Kind of undermines the message of the series. I mean 'good' in The Boys implies he'll become a desperate fringe psychopath demonized by wider society because he is dead set on battling the status quo and vought like the rest of the titular boys which I think could be a good arc. Motherfucker fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 04:17
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Anybody ever read Moore's Miracleman (or Marvelman, whatever)? Whole series spoilers here, but it's worth mentioning: In that, the backstory is less Superman and more Shazam (and there's a Shazam-style family of them). They're part of a scientific experiment by a Nazi scientist, and they're kept unconscious while the researchers feed their brains a Matrix-style world of themselves living out corny comic book stories with themselves cast as the heroes. Eventually, iirc, one of them escapes and some poo poo happens, and the researchers decide to kill the project by sending the Miraclepeople on a real-world mission into space, where the researchers nuke them all. There's a lot of goofy poo poo I'm cutting out, but in the broad strokes, it's a bit like Homelander, except they actually set off the nuke and it doesn't work. They do have their memories destroyed though, which is where the story picks up. Miracleman's powers are a little different from Superman, but that's because he's pretty much Nietzsche's superman, not DC's Superman. He brings his own desires for reality into existence through sheer force of will. And he's actually a decent dude, all things considered. He makes mistakes, but he's not nearly as detached as Dr. Manhattan. Eventually, he just wills a new society and world into being because this one is garbage and London got cratered, with himself and his fellow heroes as a new pantheon of gods. It's not bad, exactly (Neil Gaiman wrote this last part, and he did a good job with it), but it's still an absolute dictatorship of a philosopher-king who isn't entirely human anymore. I don't know if I have a point about that, except that no matter how benevolent you make your Superman, they're still going to be a superman, and they will change morality and ethics as we know it. It's in the archetype's DNA. That paradigm shift is unpredictable, and the thread's premise is basically asking how people such as us could teach morality to someone who is going to operate on a moral plane altogether foreign to the one we know. I don't think we can--or at least, I don't know anyone I would trust with the job. AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 05:10 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 05:08
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AtraMorS posted:I don't know if I have a point about that, except that no matter how benevolent you make your Superman, they're still going to be a superman, and they will change morality and ethics as we know it. It's in the archetype's DNA. That paradigm shift is unpredictable, and the thread's premise is basically asking how people such as us could teach morality to someone who is going to operate on a moral plane altogether foreign to the one we know. I don't think we can--or at least, I don't know anyone I would trust with the job. You can apply this logic to a politician or a general, especially in the post-nuclear age. I am not compelled by the notion that once you gain a certain level of power that your morality automatically changes based on the new plane you're operating on. If the theoretical Superman is raised as a human and taught human morality, and then after gaining his power continues to see value in his humanity and the morals they raised him to embrace, it won't matter if he operates on a scale far beyond them, those values will still inform his decisions. Gaining power doesn't make you inhuman even though being inhuman can gain you power. That's not to say its impossible that gaining power couldn't warp your values, or cause you to reject previous values, or cause you to dismiss those who taught you those values and the values themselves by extension (especially if they give you reason to do so). These are all classic tropes in speculative fiction of MANY different genres that explain character motivations. But I don't accept it as inevitable.
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Oct 13, 2020 07:05
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I wouldnt use politicians as an example of power not corrupting and warping morality, personally.
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Oct 13, 2020 07:14
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Neurolimal posted:I wouldnt use politicians as an example of power not corrupting and warping morality, personally. There's a difference between accepting compromises to your morals as your position demands and actually warping morality. If there wasn't the Bernie Sanderses, Jeremy Corbyns and AOC's of the world wouldn't exist.
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Oct 13, 2020 07:22
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Sanguinia posted:You can apply this logic to a politician or a general, especially in the post-nuclear age. I am not compelled by the notion that once you gain a certain level of power that your morality automatically changes based on the new plane you're operating on. If the theoretical Superman is raised as a human and taught human morality, and then after gaining his power continues to see value in his humanity and the morals they raised him to embrace, it won't matter if he operates on a scale far beyond them, those values will still inform his decisions. Gaining power doesn't make you inhuman even though being inhuman can gain you power. What if you had the ability to know whenever evil existed? If you could hear it in the heartbeat of a woman on the other side of the world? What if you had the ability to stop it? And what if you had the desire to do so? Why, then, does Superman have villains to fight? I'd also say that the advent of the nuclear age is itself a real-world example of a fundamental shift in morality, at least when it comes to war. Believe it or not, a sincere and honest quote from Robert McNamara is what made me a pacifist. "The indefinite combination of nuclear weapons and human fallibility will destroy nations." Edit: Also Miracle/Marvelman's keyword was "Atomik!" but backwards. AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 07:29
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Sanguinia posted:There's a difference between accepting compromises to your morals as your position demands and actually warping morality. If there wasn't the Bernie Sanderses, Jeremy Corbyns and AOC's of the world wouldn't exist. I mean, its notable that your three examples either wield minimal power or were wrested out of positions of potential power by other, more manipulative politicians. They stuck to their morals, and in exchange were complete outsiders until popular momentum temporarily empowered them.
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Oct 13, 2020 07:37
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The best way to raise a superman is to just dump him in the woods until
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Oct 13, 2020 12:35
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Also I don't know if it was already mentioned but in Superman Red Son he falls into the Soviet Union. It...actually goes pretty ok for the majority of people?
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Oct 13, 2020 12:38
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DarkCrawler posted:Also I don't know if it was already mentioned but in Superman Red Son he falls into the Soviet Union. It...actually goes pretty ok for the majority of people? Unless you're a dissident and Superman turns you into a cyborg drone. It's a fun comic. America Inc. fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 19:38
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DarkCrawler posted:Also I don't know if it was already mentioned but in Superman Red Son he falls into the Soviet Union. It...actually goes pretty ok for the majority of people? adoration for none posted:Unless you're a dissident and Superman turns you into a cyborg drone. Beyond the overtly authoritarian dystopic elements of the Red Son storyline, there's also the problematic ideological issues. In the comic version Superman never learns of Joseph Stalin's crimes and venerates him after his son assassinates him and Superman takes over the party, which in turn allows that son of Stalin to continue with the Soviet Unions worst excesses in the operation of its police state right under Superman's nose. Superman does eventually discover this through his confrontation with Red Son Batman, but this leads to the ultimate repurposing of Braniac to replace the KGB and other human elements of state security... which in turn arguably makes the sausage making process of Superman's perfect communist utopia far worse what with the full on cyborg brainwashing and Superman's own ideals being subtly corrupted by Braniac's interactions with him. This in turn nearly leads to the planet's subjugation at Braniac's hands. The ultimate thematic message against authoritarianism and the dangers of delusions of grandeur even in the service of noble goals is muddied pretty badly in the comic by its casting of an equally authoritarian Lex Luthor as Superman's foil and the wank-job that is the epilogue of the perfect society Lex builds once "the alien," is gone, but it still gets the point across. The animated film version does a much more interesting job of the storyline. Superman discovers Stalin's crimes through Lois Lane's reporting efforts, initially dismisses them as propaganda, and then when he confirms them kills Stalin himself in a thorough rejection of corrupt methods in the achievement of communist goals, resolving to use his powers to ensure the mission of Marx is achieved the "right way." The irony comes when his first step is a renewal of the war in Korea, and over the course of subsequent decades he rolls out a foreign policy of economic pressure, aggressive diplomacy and occasional proxy war coupled with his use of the cyborg program as a "humane alternative," to gulags and extermination. This accomplishes a nearly-global communist revolution which he describes as "with rare exception, bloodless." The comic also uses that line, but in the film we are clearly shown that this description is total hypocrisy, and that we're explicitly viewing the Cold War in reverse, that Superman is basically using a romanticized version of Capitalist methods to instead spread Communism regardless of what the people he's fighting for want. A conversation with Wonder Woman makes this even more explicit: he says that human nature is "dark and brutal," and that he NEEDS to use these methods to show them a better way, because unlike what the Amazon's believe "freedom," must be imposed externally with us rather than springing from within. Lex Luthor in the animated version is also way more interesting because his motivations for beating Superman and stopping the Soviets is not driven by his egomania and belief in the necessity that he be the one to guide humanity, not this alien, but instead a conclusion that Superman's externally forced evolution of human society toward global communism has been a "sociological disaster," which has done incalculable harm under the shiny happy surface, again reflecting a sort of 50s Cold War Capitalism In Reverse critique of Superman's society. And more importantly, at the end of the story when he finally "beats," Superman, Lex steps down from power as well, because his guidance would be just as bad as Superman's was on that metric. Thus the story becomes a thematically consistent parable about the importance of self-determination in societal growth rather than a self-contradicted screed against authoritarianism.
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Oct 13, 2020 20:30
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Is Superman like the start of the atomic age, in that once you uncork that bottle, you can never go back to the old world? Would it be better, then, to just launch him into the sun? A world without Superman is probably a much safer proposition than a world in which he exists and you hope he is isn't a monster.
Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Oct 13, 2020 |
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Oct 13, 2020 20:52
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Any question about raising Superman is an allegory for the raising of children in general; for a majority of adults, they will in time become feeble and weak compared to the children they raise, unable to resist if one decided to commit parenticide. The reason its a hot topic for allegory now is because of the modern crises that people are facing: that society and the environment it shaped is actively hostile to the coming generations.
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Oct 13, 2020 21:04
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Is Superman like the start of the atomic age, in that once you uncork that bottle, you can never go back to the old world? Would it be better, then, to just launch him into the sun? A world without Superman is probably a much safer proposition than a world in which he exists and you hope he is isn't a monster. If you want to get rid of Superman, launching him into the sun is the last thing you want to do.
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Oct 14, 2020 15:24
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Epicurius posted:If you want to get rid of Superman, launching him into the sun is the last thing you want to do. Launch him into deep space, far away. Do ethical concerns apply to aliens?
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Oct 14, 2020 15:25
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Epicurius posted:If you want to get rid of Superman, launching him into the sun is the last thing you want to do.
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Oct 14, 2020 17:20
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Launch him into deep space, far away. I think ethical concerns apply to people, and I think Superman's a people. He's sentient, he's sapient, he is able to tell right from wrong, he can make moral choices. I don't think the fact that he was born someplace other than earth should matter.
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Oct 14, 2020 18:57
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Is Superman like the start of the atomic age, in that once you uncork that bottle, you can never go back to the old world? Would it be better, then, to just launch him into the sun? A world without Superman is probably a much safer proposition than a world in which he exists and you hope he is isn't a monster. Is man the atomic age for this earth, animals, and life because it has power, ability and will to guide it to a better place but instead choses not to ascend and be that guide and consume it gluttonly until ruin is left? Maybe that's why God left. Decided it would be better not to step into a mess (and be killed again)
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Oct 15, 2020 00:07
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Is Superman like the start of the atomic age, in that once you uncork that bottle, you can never go back to the old world? Would it be better, then, to just launch him into the sun? A world without Superman is probably a much safer proposition than a world in which he exists and you hope he is isn't a monster. The DC one? No, since he can't be replicated meaningfully. The Homelander? Absolutely.
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Oct 15, 2020 08:56
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Epicurius posted:There's a reason this is sort of the iconic modern Superman bit: For people who don't know, one of the iconic moments, perhaps considered the greatest moment of superman is in the comic "All Star Superman". Every now and then in the comic it cuts to a person who is having a bad day and is becoming increasingly upset. Superman is dying. From a trap Lex Luthor set up on the sun, and it's also about to fail. Superman has to sacrifice his life into the sun to keep it going. But before he does it cuts to the person who is about to commit suicide. Superman tells them everything will be alright. And they hug each other. As it's been said, the idea of superman using violence is fun but it's those moments that says something about the character. Superman's greatest moments aren't when he's punching out the villains. This comic scene has literally convinced people to not go through with suicide.  Nelson Mandingo fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Oct 15, 2020 |
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Oct 15, 2020 10:19
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Gerund posted:Any question about raising Superman is an allegory for the raising of children in general; for a majority of adults, they will in time become feeble and weak compared to the children they raise, unable to resist if one decided to commit parenticide. It's been a top button issue since the myth of Sisyphus, which perhaps not coincidentally also has tons of sex and violence.
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Oct 15, 2020 11:06
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Bug Squash posted:It's been a top button issue since the myth of Sisyphus, which perhaps not coincidentally also has tons of sex and violence. Much like the price of orange juice depends on the yield of the crop, certain forms of an allegory go up and down as the culture changes around it. Back in the early 70s no one gave a drat about the raising of a Superman, it was all about Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex. Also lots of sex, but that was specifically a reaction to the ongoing sexual revolution and the dying taboo around talking about the deed itself.
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Oct 16, 2020 02:42
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you don't need to raise superman, OP. he can fly.
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Oct 16, 2020 04:21
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Bug Squash posted:It's been a top button issue since the myth of Sisyphus, which perhaps not coincidentally also has tons of sex and violence. poo poo, I meant Oedipus. Been playing too much Hades. But, also there's also Zeus over throwing Cronus, and Cronus killing Uranus before him. Fearing replacement at the hands of our children, and it's inevitability, is a deep vein in human psychology. It plays up a lot in modern tales about robot uprisings and transhumanism, and the comic Miracle man before that. Ultimately we all fear being obsolete so authors can return to it again and again.
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Oct 16, 2020 11:31
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Bug Squash posted:poo poo, I meant Oedipus. Been playing too much Hades. I think the birth of Athena is very instructive. quote:To truly understand Athena, one must understand her birth and vice versa. Here I will explain her birth, if you want to learn more about the Goddess, you must visit her page. The story of her birth begins with her mother.
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Oct 16, 2020 11:47
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Nelson Mandingo posted:For people who don't know, one of the iconic moments, perhaps considered the greatest moment of superman is in the comic "All Star Superman". Is there any setup to Reagen before that page? Because I love how wonderfully minimalist the whole thing is. "your doctor really did get held up" tells us everything we need to know about how this girl ended up on this ledge.
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Oct 16, 2020 12:04
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