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For anyone who's read that thread, it makes total sense to restrict no content "The election doesn't matter because the Supreme Court will just do whatever it wants" posts, an Take that has been addressed over and over again and does, in fact, contribute to peoples' anxiety in a way that is completely unhelpful and divorced from reality. If people want to post that kind of thing, they need to actually provide some kind of context and reasoning for it to have any value whatsoever beyond white noise -- this is an extension of general dnd rules that, you know, you should try to put some effort into your posts. It is not anti-transparency to say "if you have an issue, please PM me" lol come on
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Oct 28, 2020 15:04
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Marx Was A Lib posted:Bush v Gore wasn't fanfiction. Using mental health as a cudgel (to paraphrase: 'the notion that this could happen could upset people with mental health concerns!') is absolutely loving disgusting, if I might add from a perspective of someone whose been off their depression meds since they lost their decent insurance in April. Do you have an example of a probation of mine you disagree with? Or an example of that policy being used to punish a post whose content you agree with? I would normally PM you, but if you distrust PM's that's probably not a great place to start this conversation. I think there is an idea that I am deliberately trying to make the polls thread a pro-Biden safe space (in contrast to the General Election thread)... which I would say is definitely not the case, because probably half the conversation in the thread - which is probably closing in on over a thousand posts a day at this point - are about the ways in which Biden could lose, or posters feeling anxious. Anyone is welcome to post about how Biden could lose, or why they're skeptical about the polling numbers. What we do not want is posts which focus on discredited news articles or things like Trump ordering the military into the street to shoot Democrats, or the Republicans passing a constitutional amendment to bar Democrats for voting. That is unhelpful fanfiction. Thats not to say you can't post that elsewhere, but it doesn't belong in a thread about polls, and which is premised on the idea of rooting the conversation in data. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 15:08
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eke out posted:For anyone who's read that thread, it makes total sense to restrict no content "The election doesn't matter because the Supreme Court will just do whatever it wants" posts, an Take that has been addressed over and over again and does, in fact, contribute to peoples' anxiety in a way that is completely unhelpful and divorced from reality. Huh, I can't imagine why a topic like that would come up *checks notes* the same day a new supreme court justice was confirmed. News cycles cycle. quote:It is not anti-transparency to say "if you have an issue, please PM me" lol come on Individually? Sure. As a forums-wide standard practice? lol
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Oct 28, 2020 15:11
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eke out posted:It is not anti-transparency to say "if you have an issue, please PM me" lol come on It's literally removing a conversation from the public realm and placing it into a private conversation between two people. Maybe you have a different idea as to what transparency means, but usually it involves visibility and ease of access. PMs are invisible to everyone but the participants, and nobody else has access to them. eke out posted:For anyone who's read that thread, it makes total sense to restrict no content "The election doesn't matter because the Supreme Court will just do whatever it wants" posts, an Take that has been addressed over and over again and does, in fact, contribute to peoples' anxiety in a way that is completely unhelpful and divorced from reality. As someone with a rather serious anxiety disorder, it's important to realize that our emotions are reactions to real world conditions. Pretending those real world conditions don't exist isn't healthy or useful. If you genuinely want to help people handle their anxiety, openly empathizing and sharing is a much better route to take. If you just don't want to hear it, that's a whole different thing. Just don't confuse the two.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:14
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As someone who has had anxiety, it's also a good idea not to feed into it. Having a group of people doomposting feeds into it. I am not saying these things are beyond possibility, but I don't think they are inevitable. A group of people stoking each other's fears makes others feel as these things are definitely going to happen.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:21
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We're seen general feedback threads for D&D repeatedly in QCS and they invariably devolve into grudge-y slapfights just like this thread did yesterday. I'd really encourage people to try directly pming IKS about decisions they disagree with first. People pming me and having a respectful discussion has convinced me to change more decisions than QCS threads ever have. It's also a good starting point for taking it up the ladder or into a feedback or qcs thread later if you still think people aren't being reasonable.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:21
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Do you have an example of a probation of mine you disagree with? Or an example of that policy being used to punish a post whose content you agree with? I would normally PM you, but if you distrust PM's that's probably not a great place to start this conversation. This post was probated with the reason "Take a break." What rule does this post violate? quote:They'll never abandon him, "he was robbed", that's provided he loses, which is a long shot what with the SCOTUS about to radically rewrite election law in the final hour and covid scaring Dems more than the death cultists. Post 2: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?noseen=1&threadid=3927551&pagenumber=461&perpage=40#post509278079 This post was probated with the reason "Take a longer break." What was posted that warranted this ramp? quote:Even in a Biden landslide, there's still a lot Trump and his fans can do to win. DeSantis could refuse to certify Florida's EVs, armed groups could attack polling places, the SCOTUS could make counting legitimate votes impossible (and throw the election to the House), or Bill Barr could think of something. quote:Anyone is welcome to post about how Biden could lose, or why they're skeptical about the polling numbers. What we do not want is posts which focus on discredited news articles or things like Trump ordering the military into the street to shoot Democrats, or the Republicans passing a constitutional amendment to bar Democrats for voting. That is unhelpful fanfiction. Thats not to say you can't post that elsewhere, but it doesn't belong in a thread about polls, and which is premised on the idea of rooting the conversation in data. The idea that Trump won't issue a general call to arms is preemptively defeated by his call for the Proud Boys to "stand by." These are all real, material things that could happen, and it seems to me like you'd rather just sweep it under the rug because it's unsightly. The SC just confirmed a new Justice. I'm sorry, but that's going to be topical right now. I mentioned it upthread, but: quote:Using mental health as a cudgel (to paraphrase: 'the notion that this could happen could upset people with mental health concerns!') is absolutely loving disgusting, if I might add from a perspective of someone whose been off their depression meds since they lost their decent insurance in April. All it sounds like you're doing is the classic concern trolling. "We can't talk about gun violence because the wounds are too fresh!":Republicanism::"We can't discuss ugly things because it might upset people":Neoliberalism. quote:I think there is an idea that I am deliberately trying to make the polls thread a pro-Biden safe space (in contrast to the General Election thread)... which I would say is definitely not the case, because probably half the conversation in the thread - which is probably closing in on over a thousand posts a day at this point - are about the ways in which Biden could lose, or posters feeling anxious. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and actually say I don't think you're doing it intentionally - but one thing we as humans are all great at is paving an 8-lane express highway to hell with the best of intentions.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:23
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Also I'd appreciate it if you would refer to me by "he" or "they" not "it". Referring to posters by "it", even if you don't like them, is gross. Cpt_Obvious posted:As someone with a rather serious anxiety disorder, it's important to realize that our emotions are reactions to real world conditions. Pretending those real world conditions don't exist isn't healthy or useful. If you genuinely want to help people handle their anxiety, openly empathizing and sharing is a much better route to take. Edit: Not for this thread! PM me. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 15:23
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There are literally endless other places to express negative emotions beyond USPOL if that’s what you want to do. As someone else with chronic anxiety, having mental/emotional issues isn’t a hall pass to make bad or low content posts.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:24
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Marx Was A Lib posted:Putting poo poo in PMs is thwarts any idea of transparency or accountability, unless this is somehow tacitly endorsing us to share our PMs with mods/iks with the larger community? I don't know where you got the idea that "accountability" means "hurl vague out-of-context public accusations at every available opportunity, without ever explaining the details to someone who has the power to de-IK people". There's been several people doing that in this thread, and it's frankly downright childish. If you have an issue with an IK PM, then PM a mod or an admin. If you have an issue with a mod PM, then PM a different mod or an admin. There is no other way to get your issues actually seen and addressed. Seven Hundred Bee posted:Do you have an example of a probation of mine you disagree with? Or an example of that policy being used to punish a post whose content you agree with? I would normally PM you, but if you distrust PM's that's probably not a great place to start this conversation. I don't think this is a good idea. If they don't trust PMs, too bad, because putting users on public trial is not a good way to handle things in D&D.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:24
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:Also I'd appreciate it if you would refer to me by "he" or "they" not "it". Referring to posters by "it", even if you don't like them, is gross. Yup. That was pretty out of line of me, and I apologize.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:25
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Marx Was A Lib posted:We haven't really heard much of anything, despite accountability and transparency being two of the most brought up issues in the admin run D&D feedback thread. I hate it when new IKs/mods are allowed to make up new rules on the spot. We need a more formal process that gives the community time to discuss the new rules.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:25
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Doctor Butts posted:As someone who has had anxiety, it's also a good idea not to feed into it. Having a group of people doomposting feeds into it. I am not saying these things are beyond possibility, but I don't think they are inevitable. A group of people stoking each other's fears makes others feel as these things are definitely going to happen. The global warming thread about year ago or even more was essentially constant doom posting. Thankfully, that's changed.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:27
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Marx Was A Lib posted:Sorry, maybe I didn't do a good enough job at expressing myself. RE the latter: From Athanatos in the other thread when this question was raised Athanatos posted:If you're not willing to make a QCS thread or PM ANY other mod or admin about it, I can't possibly know to look at it. 
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Oct 28, 2020 15:34
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Paracaidas posted:Ah. I took concerns about SHB (in particular "whatever it's convenient for that to mean at any given time") to be tied to the prior complaints about transparency. Nah, that specifically isn't an issue with any one particular authority figure, it's the general culture of the same set of D&D warriors that post a monthly "it's time to talk about CSPAM and the bad posters from CSPAM" thread - there are 7000 different standards/interpretations as to what "doomerism" or "doomposting" actually is as was very well demonstrated in the Athanatos thread as well. It's just [chefkiss] that one of the regular cast of characters that show up in those threads to complain about doom and decorum managed to "sticky wheel gets the grease" their way into an IK spot, decided to test their buttons out in CSPAM (a subforum they're known for being aggro towards), and then start putting "legit" 6ers through for doomposting when we never even came to a communal decision on what constitutes doomposting. Lib and let die fucked around with this message at 15:41 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 15:38
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Cpt_Obvious posted:As someone with a rather serious anxiety disorder, it's important to realize that our emotions are reactions to real world conditions. Pretending those real world conditions don't exist isn't healthy or useful. If you genuinely want to help people handle their anxiety, openly empathizing and sharing is a much better route to take. However, that doesn't mean anyone has carte blanche to post what amounts to white noise doomsday takes every time they're feeling anxious in the Polling or USPOL thread. It's one thing to state that you are concerned that ACB being confirmed will allow Trump and the GOP to steal the election and asking the likelihood of that happening, it's another entirely to post what amounts to creative fiction about how exactly they are going to steal the election, that there is nothing anyone can do about it, and that we're all doomed. It's not adding anything meaningful to the discussion at large, and while you might be soothing your own anxiety, you're likely not helping anyone else that might be suffering from their own anxiety issues. It's a compounding issue that just derails those threads. There are plenty of other places on the forums where you can post like that if you're feeling anxious and it's more than welcome.
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Oct 28, 2020 15:40
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Equating mods and iks to regular users seems a bit disingenuous. PMs are not transparency. it was nice to have a qcs feedback thread but it got closed after the poster obviously lobbying for power was given power so expecting people with concerns about them to just pm seems unreasonable. I don't even disagree with the particular directive, and they are doing fine so far despite the maxim that they are the person least suited, but they are no longer just a random user. Edit- you are here, but I'm not really replying to you sorry if this reads weird Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 15:49
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The "mental health" appeal seems to be far more pointed than I originally assumed. I didn't realize it was a specific complaint about a specific type of posting within a specific thread. All that said, it seems like the larger problem is "white noise" which wasn't what I was originally responding to and is its own separate issue so let's try to keep those two untangled.
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Oct 28, 2020 16:51
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PMing mods is and always has been where complaints go to die. That's why it's encouraged. Despite f_o_s's pretty telling admission that he ignores QCS, this thread doesn't exist because of earnest PMs. OTOH the result of this thread is that it's been a vehicle to pack the mod team with more of f_o_s and MP's postin' buds so maybe all manner of feedback is pointless.
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Oct 28, 2020 17:46
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Most of the doomposting is not "to cope", it's to try to get a rise out of other people for the audacity of even briefly feeling good about anything. This kind of behavior is greatly frowned on elsewhere in the forums, but D&D likes to imply that bringing someone down is inherently more realistic than someone expressing happiness at anything, itself a really crab buckety approach to emotional wellbeing.
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Oct 28, 2020 17:47
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A lot of people give feedback. If the feedback of two posters is in conflict, one will invariably feel that they have been ignored. Nobody is entitled to have every one of their whims catered to by the moderators. If you're PMing them over and over and they're not doing what you want, they don't want to do what you want. How are people having a hard time understanding this?
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Oct 28, 2020 17:49
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:PMing mods is and always has been where complaints go to die. That's why it's encouraged. Despite f_o_s's pretty telling admission that he ignores QCS, this thread doesn't exist because of earnest PMs. Have you e-mailed mods and not received a response? Did you escalate to the admins if you didn't receive a response? Athanos has already said in the other thread that they respond to everything, was that a lie?
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Oct 28, 2020 17:51
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enki42 posted:Have you e-mailed mods and not received a response? Did you escalate to the admins if you didn't receive a response? 
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Oct 28, 2020 17:54
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:The response to the handful of PMs I've sent to mods is that I mysteriously started getting longer probations, and more of them, so I stopped posting here. You are free to interpret this as a problem, or a job well done Yah, ditto on this.
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Oct 28, 2020 17:55
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:PMing mods is and always has been where complaints go to die. That's why it's encouraged. Despite f_o_s's pretty telling admission that he ignores QCS, this thread doesn't exist because of earnest PMs. What the gently caress is the point of this. Every single one of your posts as been the same thing, complaining that the mod team sucks and only punishes posting enemies with no proof, no actual source and just whining. You aren't doing anything besides yelling at clouds because you aren't being catered to and how you believe the mods and admins aren't being faithful or helpful. You are deliberately being hostile and atonganistic so you can justify the cry of ALL MODS BAD NO MODS NO MASTERS and shut off any helpful discussion of what anyone says. Cpt_Obvious posted:Yah, ditto on this. Dude you literally ate a probe because you posted off-site drama after lying that an outside mod gave approval and got found out by the mods that it was a lie. Getting probed for being a dumbass isn't exactly the best evidence of mod oppression you think it is. UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 18:02
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UCS Hellmaker posted:What the gently caress is the point of this. Every single one of your posts as been the same thing, complaining that the mod team sucks and only punishes posting enemies with no proof, no actual source and just whining. You aren't doing anything besides yelling at clouds because you aren't being catered to and how you believe the mods and admins aren't being faithful or helpful. You are deliberately being hostile and atonganistic so you can justify the cry of ALL MODS BAD NO MODS NO MASTERS and shut off any helpful discussion of what anyone says. MSDOS KAPITAL posted:Lemming already did this but as I was reading this post it occurred to me that when we have threads like this, in QCS or wherever else, any kind of claim that goes against the enforced zeitgeist of "everything's fine and we just have to trim some things around the edges" and especially any claim that the actions of admins and mods are anything less than at least well-intentioned at a minimum, and more likely actually quite effective and cool and very, very good - it's always met with several posts like this. It rarely goes in the other direction either, by which I mean: I don't think I really rely on this "tactic" (and it does feel like a tactic), and I don't recall a lot of people with grievances, going ahead and asking people defending the mods to post examples of why this or that action was justified. (It does happen, and when it does it's usually about a particular poster, and the answer is almost always "look at their rap sheet" as opposed to posting anything in the thread - but even this is more rare than going the other way.)
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Oct 28, 2020 18:05
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Mellow Seas posted:A lot of people give feedback. If the feedback of two posters is in conflict, one will invariably feel that they have been ignored. Nobody is entitled to have every one of their whims catered to by the moderators. If you're PMing them over and over and they're not doing what you want, they don't want to do what you want. How are people having a hard time understanding this? a lot of posts take the flavor of explaining basic social behavior, like when people were aghast that politicians wouldn't openly gloat over trump getting covid and instead offered generic "best wishes" comments
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Oct 28, 2020 18:09
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UCS Hellmaker posted:What the gently caress is the point of this. Every single one of your posts as been the same thing, complaining that the mod team sucks and only punishes posting enemies with no proof, no actual source and just whining. You aren't doing anything besides yelling at clouds because you aren't being catered to and how you believe the mods and admins aren't being faithful or helpful. You are deliberately being hostile and atonganistic so you can justify the cry of ALL MODS BAD NO MODS NO MASTERS and shut off any helpful discussion of what anyone says. I would argue that "off site drama" about a poster's active acts of aggro on the forums isn't really off site drama. it's a user of the site, skirting the rules for the express purpose of skirting the rules and gloating about it. But this is one of those "take it to PMs" issues that get sent straight to the circular file.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:10
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I think saying that a particular mod, or hell, even the mods of D&D collectively might have a bias or a grudge against certain posters is within the realm of possibility. That's when you escalate it to an admin. And I think it's way less likely that the entire moderation and admin team collectively are all conspiring against you because you complained, particularly when the admin team doesn't have any real connection to D&D. If you're being constantly unjustly probated, there should be some evidence of that.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:10
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Marx Was A Lib posted:I would argue that "off site drama" about a poster's active acts of aggro on the forums isn't really off site drama. it's a user of the site, skirting the rules for the express purpose of skirting the rules and gloating about it. It's insane that you are actively losing your poo poo over someone using the ignore function.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:14
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UCS Hellmaker posted:It's insane that you are actively losing your poo poo over someone using the ignore function. Losing my poo poo? Okay. And you wonder why we don't like taking poo poo to PMs - your open disdain for dissent is just so god damned camera-friendly. I'll just re-iterate: MSDOS KAPITAL posted:And, also fwiw, I can't recall a single instance of like posting the evidence of some moderator malpractice and then a bunch of people flip around their opinions. I'm sure it does happen, but it's not the norm - usually you don't hear from the people who asked again, or they just give narrow point-by-point justifications and ignore the pattern, etc. I think detailed evidence-driven posts about this sort of stuff can change opinions even if they usually don't, and they're also worth it on the basis of setting the record straight, but really the thing that's going to get people to come around on this the most, is to witness it for themselves, and figure it out for themselves, and then when we have a thread in here or in QCS, to read the posts and figure out that "oh look, a lot of people feel the same way, actually." I think that is a lot more powerful.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:15
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Dude you literally ate a probe because you posted off-site drama after lying that an outside mod gave approval and got found out by the mods that it was a lie. Getting probed for being a dumbass isn't exactly the best evidence of mod oppression you think it is. 1. I wasn't even talking about that probe so don't spring-board directly to it. 2. I said that I asked a mod whether posting that photo was doxxing or not. Which I did, and was was told it was not doxxing. I don't know where this "mod approval" thing came from, but I at no point claimed that I had mod approval to post anything so I'd appreciate you not spreading lies about me. Cpt_Obvious fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Oct 28, 2020 |
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Oct 28, 2020 18:16
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Classifying "ignoring people" as an "active act of aggression" is the funniest thing I've read all week.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:17
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enki42 posted:I think saying that a particular mod, or hell, even the mods of D&D collectively might have a bias or a grudge against certain posters is within the realm of possibility. And I think it's also important to bear in mind that admins already sign off on longer probations, anyway. So it's not clear to me what would be the point of escalating (even though, again, I already did that - pointlessly, as it turns out).
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Oct 28, 2020 18:17
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enki42 posted:Classifying "ignoring people" as an "active act of aggression" is the funniest thing I've read all week. Actively sowing aggression by "subtweeting" (for lack of a better term) posters that you have no intention of engaging with, and used the forums technology to automate your not engaging is trolling. It'd be like if I didn't take SHB off of ignore to interact with them in this thread here. I wouldn't be posting in good faith because I'm not looking for a discussion.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:19
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Cefte posted:What are you trying to achieve? Emphasis mine. This post by one of the effort posters of yore, which I've been told D&D needs more of, was ignored. I think it's probably the best take on the situation. Right now, the current mod situation re:specific mods/iks and unresolved grievances is nothing but a source and result of clique warfare. (IMAGINE THE HELL) This will continue after the election. Ramps will not stop it. If it ever existed, the days of gentlemanly debate over politics are gone.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:19
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If the entire admin and mod team is collectively against doing what you're saying, you really have two options - accept that nothing is going to change for this particular complaint, and get over it, or accept that nothing is going to change, and whichever place you're posting in might not be the place for you.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:20
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e: forget it, this was glib and added nothing.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:21
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enki42 posted:If the entire admin and mod team is collectively against doing what you're saying, you really have two options - accept that nothing is going to change for this particular complaint, and get over it, or accept that nothing is going to change, and whichever place you're posting in might not be the place for you.
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Oct 28, 2020 18:23
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"Doomposting" isnt against the rules outside of an IK inventing a reason prosecute ideas they dont like, as far as I can tell. It's literally just probating the projection of disagreeable ideas into the future. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 28, 2020 18:24
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