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moths posted:This is hugbox escalation. This is, in real time, how a forum goes from open discussion to brokering no dissent. Its a forums ban from someone that earned it for toxic shitposting for years, that goes into threads to be an rear end in a top hat and try and own his forum enemies. Literally its one of the worst posters we have that does not add anything to a discussion, and instead goes into a thread and posts one liners to cause derails and attack others. It would be better to find another hill to fight on because there are numerous examples from the last week that could have earned the same punishment from said poster
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Oct 20, 2020 13:02
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Its a forums ban from someone that earned it for toxic shitposting for years, that goes into threads to be an rear end in a top hat and try and own his forum enemies. Literally its one of the worst posters we have that does not add anything to a discussion, and instead goes into a thread and posts one liners to cause derails and attack others. It would be better to find another hill to fight on because there are numerous examples from the last week that could have earned the same punishment from said poster For what? I personally think YMB is dismissive, smug, and consistently confrontational. They also post plenty of facts and historical examples and have absolutely no place being removed simply because they make people upset about being challenged.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:16
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Unoriginal Name posted:For what? YMB makes people upset because they attack those people personally, specifically in order to make them upset. This is the very definition of trolling.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:28
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moths posted:This is hugbox escalation. This is, in real time, how a forum goes from open discussion to brokering no dissent. 
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Oct 20, 2020 13:29
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A solid defense with brilliantly employed rhetoric. Arguments like these are what make D&D the forum it is today.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:31
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This isn’t the place to litigate individual probations or forum bans.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:36
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Xombie posted:YMB makes people upset because they attack those people personally, specifically in order to make them upset. Calling out the hypocrisy and underlying bullshit in another posters line of thought isn't personally attacking someone. It's a bad forum ban. Discendo Vox posted:This isn’t the place to litigate individual probations or forum bans. Alright here let me help you with why it got posted: THis particular ban is exemplary of the issues I laid out in previous posts and others have brought up.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:36
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Unoriginal Name posted:For what? He doesn't challenge people, he literally comes into threads and posts bs that are meant to get people probed if they engage. Being constantly hostile to others is literally the arguments that are being talked about as the reason that DnD has become such a cess pool. He posts and treats others like this is cspam or fyad, never coming in with good faith only coming in to be abusive and hostile and has for years. Edit: its only being brought up here because of the same circumstances fyad is fighting about one poster, some people love him because they are insanely hostile and aggressive to their posting enemies, so that group is angry because a toxic poster got forums banned for doing the same poo poo constantly that has had him probed for literally over a month in the last year. Someone like that has shown they do not want to change their behavior, they do not want to listen to the idea that this is not a thread to attack forums enemies or the perceived "liberals and centrists" that haunt this forum. They want to be a hostile rear end in a top hat that treats others like poo poo and posts in good faith UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 13:37
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There's no amount of  that is going to advance any debate in a conflict between an essentially liberal outlook and an essentially radical one. Very definitely not snarky one-liners, nor derisive BOO! GET OFF THE STAGE! shitposting-as-praxis. But my hot take is that trying to maintain debate space for such engagement is pointless: even good-faith engagement actively makes threads worse, by substituting a subtopic that could be interesting for some, for a retread topic that is a grinding tedium for all involved. So there's no point generating more work for mods by requiring that they mediate a shared arena with contentious, amorphous rules of engagement (that are regularly bitterly and publicly disputed by a loud tribe of posters, no less). It is actually fine to spin off hugboxes where participants are expected to accept, as Crumbskull says, some modicum of shared values. Just keep adding more such spaces until the screaming stops. Again - there's always C-SPAM for no-holds-barred jeering and zero-good-faith yelling matches ronya fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 13:42
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A debate being subjectively tiresome and re-tready isnt that much of a problem as long as it's happening in an appropriate thread. The people who want to hash it out can do so and the people who don't want to don't have to. The problem is people being lovely towards each other. I believe the shittiness can be curbed while still maintaining the substance of the discussion. Then again if it turned out all people wanted to do was snipe at each other, the 'discussion' will die down naturally if the sniping is prohibited.
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Oct 20, 2020 13:52
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Calling out the hypocrisy and underlying bullshit in another posters line of thought isn't personally attacking someone. Trying to skirt the line of what is personal attack in a response meant to piss someone off is still trolling. Trying to get under people's skin isn't discussion. Xombie fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 13:53
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ronya posted:There's no amount of Maintaining the debate space is exactly what the mods are actually supposed to be doing? Like if D&D is a space where you arent allowed to criticize the past of Joe Biden and all leftist are banished to to wading through pages of TORP on CSPAM, then the mods could feel free to codify that into the posted rules and save themselves the trouble of trying to communicate that message through eldritch probation reasons like its Plato's loving cave. "contentious, amorphous rules of engagement" cant really be the problem when they write the loving rules
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Oct 20, 2020 13:53
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UCS Hellmaker posted:Its a forums ban from someone that earned it for toxic shitposting for years, that goes into threads to be an rear end in a top hat and try and own his forum enemies. Literally its one of the worst posters we have that does not add anything to a discussion, and instead goes into a thread and posts one liners to cause derails and attack others. It would be better to find another hill to fight on because there are numerous examples from the last week that could have earned the same punishment from said poster Nah he didn’t deserve it and it’s loving dumb as hell.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:08
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Really the only objectionable thing I see with that post Is that it would be more polite to simply ask what are the necessary conditions for lesser evilism couched in campaign promises to justify voting for a candidate who openly wants to expand racist infrastructure. I can see how that question (which is a valid question imo) might ruffle some feathers but it would certainly be less irritating without the sarcasm. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:28
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The people complaining about "hugboxes" would like a space where there are no consequences to being a gigantic rear end in a top hat about everything, so long as the gigantic assholes are on their team. Fortunately, that space already exists for them, it's just not in Debate & Discussion. Flying-PCP posted:They weren't forum banned specifically for that post so I don't know why people are focusing on it so much. Because it's hard to engage with the more than one hundred other bad posts that resulted in probations without giving the impression that said poster might be bad. Better to focus on the most recent and act outraged and demand mods forget everything they know about a his extensive history of doing the same thing. eke out fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:34
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They weren't forum banned specifically for that post so I don't know why people are focusing on it so much.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:35
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Unoriginal Name posted:Maintaining the debate space is exactly what the mods are actually supposed to be doing? D&D probably shouldn't be that space, but a subforum of D&D could be that space There could also stand to be a subforum for Serious Business lefty talk where maximally tankie posting can proceed with an unchallenged assumption that e.g. citing Brown Moses exposes one as a imperialist running-dog Really, the opacity and irregularity of enforcement stems from the community wanting to continue to dunk on consensus enemies - conservatives, libertarians, etc. - but it's not possible to codify an ostensibly neutral set of rules that would allow this, and yet also prevent lib/left divides from reducing threads to white noise. This leads to misaligned expectations and unhappiness for all involved over time ronya fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:42
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eke out posted:The people complaining about "hugboxes" would like a space where there are no consequences to being a gigantic rear end in a top hat about everything, so long as the gigantic assholes are on their team. What he did was piss people off by not being polite about things like calling out people rationalizing away a state AG letting off a wealthy child rapist, as a recent example.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:42
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YMB was one of the absolute shittiest posters in D&D for years and this was a long time coming.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:53
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Nucleic Acids posted:What he did was piss people off by not being polite about things like calling out people rationalizing away a state AG letting off a wealthy child rapist, as a recent example. The post that resulted in probation was one where he called all his liberal enemies stupid children that're basically the same as Trump supporters. Clearly y'all are allowed to continue posting extremely ignorant takes about "a state AG letting off a wealthy child rapist," as it appears literally no one has stopped anyone in the thread from doing so. This is because the GE thread is a hugbox with different rules than everywhere else in dnd. Your problem is that there are still some rules, it's just hard to tell what level of aggression at liberals is tolerated (since a very high level is tolerated 24/7) and what level gets you in trouble. I sympathize here, because this is fundamentally a problem that the moderators have allowed with the containment approach: the entire thing should be killed and that kind of behavior should not be allowed in dnd. The moderators can be consistent across the subforum by simply not accepting aggressive, toxic behavior anywhere. eke out fucked around with this message at 14:57 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:55
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Nucleic Acids posted:What he did was piss people off by not being polite about things like calling out people rationalizing away a state AG letting off a wealthy child rapist, as a recent example. YMB wasn't banned because he didn't like liberals - there are at least 25 other posters who make the same arguments as he does who don't get probated (including the AG discussion you're talking about) - or even his ideology in general - he was banned because he was incapable of not posting like a complete smug rear end in a top hat all the time. It's as simple as that. He had over 150 probations in D&D for doing this for years and has never changed his posting to be better. The good news is there are many people who say the exact same things he does but manage to do it without coming off as smug, aggressive assholes, causing needless derails, and actually engage with other posters. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:55
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RevolverDivider posted:YMB was one of the absolute shittiest posters in D&D for years and this was a long time coming. Well he never posted things like blatant rape apologia so that puts him ahead of some.
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Oct 20, 2020 14:56
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Nucleic Acids posted:Well he never posted things like blatant rape apologia so that puts him ahead of some. ...you do realize that posts like this are exactly the reason he got banned, right? As has been explained to you, there's a hundred other posters who make the same arguments he does without being needlessly aggressive, smug, dismissive, and toxic. None of them have been disciplined in this manner, so it seems to me the person and not the ideology is what's at stake here. Fritz Coldcockin fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 14:59
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Nucleic Acids posted:Well he never posted things like blatant rape apologia so that puts him ahead of some. Do you have quotes of that happening? I keep seeing it mentioned here as a common thing but I don't think I've ever seen it.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:01
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Nucleic Acids posted:Well he never posted things like blatant rape apologia so that puts him ahead of some. If you see this happening please report it - D&D isn't the place for rape apologia! moths posted:So to clarify, you're saying that a moderator's role is to tone police? I believe that moderation should be based on both how disruptive a person is being (which is not "tone") and, in some cases, the content of their posts (which is why, no, we shouldn't allow a calm Nazi to post here). In this specific instance the poster in question has a long, storied history of being disruptive - particularly in how he posted (like a smug rear end in a top hat who didn't engage in actual discussion) and where he posted like this (in threads about unrelated topics, which would lead one to believe his goal was to cause a derail) - which were a detriment to the forum at all. He didn't change this behavior after more than 150 probations. I would feel the same if he was the most centrist centrist to ever centrist and every post was "bad news, here, *checks notes* because Biden actually would save millions of your lives and its unfortunate your'e too busy viewing politics as a 'team sport' to care about the human cost of your clearly inhumane vote", particularly when those posts were in threads about things like "existential risk". In other words, he was the BravestoftheLamps of D&D. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:05
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:he was banned because he was incapable of not posting like a complete smug rear end in a top hat all the time. It's as simple as that. So to clarify, you're saying that a moderator's role is to tone police?
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Oct 20, 2020 15:06
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Fritz Coldcockin posted:...you do realize that posts like this are exactly the reason he got banned, right? There were people posting blatant rape apologia in the prior incarnation of the general election thread (which led in large part to it getting shut down) and still didn’t get a forum ban. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 15:11 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:06
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moths posted:So to clarify, you're saying that a moderator's role is to tone police? Says a lot about you to consider banning people for being abusive assholes a form of tone policing. Doctor Butts fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:17
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if YMB is a toxic poster that needs to go for the good of the forum then there’s at least a dozen posters infinitely more toxic than them. stop making this forum an echo chamber for team blue American politics.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:21
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^^^^ rask literally you can make the same argument about cspam, its a dumb bad argument to state that that this is all about team blue politics when it is not, its trying to solve a fundamental issue with DnD where a toxic culture has formed that drowns out any discussion or talking. The people trying to make this out about DnD being a liberal and centrist hugbox are literally part of teh issue, because they want to make this about posting enemies and attacking anyone that doesn't fit their idea of what the forums should allow. that is the underlying issue And again, This is directly the same as the current poo poo pile with FYAD and the admin team, someone toxic that is a net drag for the forums got punished for repeat behavior, and the people that support him are angry because he got punished for doing the same thing constantly again and again. Nucleic Acids posted:There were people posting blatant rape apologia in the prior incarnation of the general election thread (which led in large part to it getting shut down) and still didn’t get a forum ban. There are also people that love to toss out arguments that basically are one liners about rape that are used to try and get others banned, YMB was one of them. Precisely because its posts that are not meant for DnD its meant to be shitposts that drown out discussion and be a smug rear end in a top hat, its posts meant for cspam where one liners are encouraged. UCS Hellmaker fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:22
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Let's actually put this is to the test. I'm going to reply to your post in two ways - one, how I would normally reply, and two, I will try to channel the spirit of YMB. You tell me what is better to have. moths posted:So to clarify, you're saying that a moderator's role is to tone police? SA moderators have always punished people who are disruptive independent of their ideology, its a central tenant of how the forum has (and should be) moderated. moths posted:So to clarify, you're saying that a moderator's role is to tone police? I have some bad news for you, unfortunately, SA moderators have for years almost exclusively focused on punishing what you gleefully dismiss as "tone policing" which is, in fact, weeding out disruptive poo poo posters. You might notice this is if you ever stepped outside your bubble, but since you view moderation as a "team sport" here you are jumping over yourself to justify letting abusive assholes continue to poo poo on everyone as their post - which is, unfortunately, not surprising. *checks notes* - be better. Grapplejack posted:This thread is starting to seem less like it's for input on moderation changes and more for running cover for poo poo mods have wanted to do but thought would go over poorly. I don't entirely agree with this, but I do think D&D should maybe have a stickied thread where mods update serious punishments and provide a space to discuss them. I don't think its unfair to asks mods to provide context around their decision-making, even when its a decision I agree with - and let people give feedback and comment. Seven Hundred Bee fucked around with this message at 15:31 on Oct 20, 2020 |
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Oct 20, 2020 15:23
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This thread is starting to seem less like it's for input on moderation changes and more for running cover for poo poo mods have wanted to do but thought would go over poorly.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:29
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UCS Hellmaker posted:There are also people that love to toss out arguments that basically are one liners about rape that are used to try and get others banned, YMB was one of them. Precisely because its posts that are not meant for DnD its meant to be shitposts that drown out discussion and be a smug rear end in a top hat, its posts meant for cspam where one liners are encouraged. Or there’s just been a failure to actually and properly punish people who posted rape apologia and they’re allowed to continue making GBS threads up the forum.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:34
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Grapplejack posted:This thread is starting to seem less like it's for input on moderation changes and more for running cover for poo poo mods have wanted to do but thought would go over poorly. This thread was entirely on me. I got so many "Hey can you review this probe I got?" or I'd see something queued that I had no idea why and have to ask. I made this to get a better feel of D&D and what goes on here. What issues it has and how I can help. I think it's gone pretty well. I'm going to close it and call it a thread pretty soon. If anyone has any last thoughts about D&D or questions for me, let me know.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:35
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Grapplejack posted:This thread is starting to seem less like it's for input on moderation changes and more for running cover for poo poo mods have wanted to do but thought would go over poorly. Grapplejack posted:Economists think incredibly highly of themselves and look down on other social sciences despite being one that is basically just reading bones so anything that knocks them down a peg or two is ok in my book. Every poster over the last page who hates the YMB ban has repeatedly done the thing that got uninterrupted threadbanned and YMB forum banned, without exception.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:38
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Athanatos posted:This thread was entirely on me. I got so many "Hey can you review this probe I got?" or I'd see something queued that I had no idea why and have to ask. I made this to get a better feel of D&D and what goes on here. What issues it has and how I can help. Wait, should we have been posting questionable probes? Because that's a much more specific problem that has kind of run rampant.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:40
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Yeah, if you have an issue with probations or bans, please drop me a PM, or another admin if you feel comfortable with them. This thread is not a public trial for users.
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Oct 20, 2020 15:40
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Nucleic Acids posted:Or there’s just been a failure to actually and properly punish people who posted rape apologia and they’re allowed to continue making GBS threads up the forum. Here you are looking for enemies to punish, and painting others to justify why you think they need to be. You want to justify YMB getting a bad probe by trying to say he was right to be an rear end in a top hat and post one liners in every thread he could so he could call out the people you call rape apologists. This is the poo poo that DnD suffers from and part of the toxic culture here
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Oct 20, 2020 15:43
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Athanatos posted:This thread was entirely on me. I got so many "Hey can you review this probe I got?" or I'd see something queued that I had no idea why and have to ask. I made this to get a better feel of D&D and what goes on here. What issues it has and how I can help. Will there be any substantial changes from the feedback received
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Oct 20, 2020 15:43
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Seven Hundred Bee posted:I have some bad news for you, unfortunately, SA moderators have for years almost exclusively focused on punishing what you gleefully dismiss as "tone policing" which is, in fact, weeding out disruptive poo poo posters. So in other words, yes. Now how does this: Seven Hundred Bee posted:You might notice this is if you ever stepped outside your bubble, but since you view moderation as a "team sport" here you are jumping over yourself to justify letting abusive assholes continue to poo poo on everyone as their post - which is, unfortunately, not surprising. *checks notes* - be better. not meet yout own criteria of being a disruptive poo poo post? You accuse me of being in a bubble, make allusions about my motives, and tell me to git gud - all from behind the shield of a probe if I take your bait?
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Oct 20, 2020 15:43
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