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The_Continental posted:People act like the midwest is some desert when there are tons of huge metro areas. Places like Milwaukee, Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, Grand Rapids, and even some spots in NE, Pittsburgh, and Philly are completely liveable cities with huge metros. Chicago median home cost: $278,816 / 57k You get the idea, right? https://www.wbez.org/stories/the-middle-class-is-shrinking-everywhere-in-chicago-its-almost-gone/e63cb407-5d1e-41b1-9124-a717d4fb1b0b
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Oct 29, 2020 03:56
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 https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2015/january/shipping-container-house/ Your results may vary if you don't literally have a $1M+ budget to build your shipping container house.
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Oct 29, 2020 04:01
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I saw a couple episodes of a show about tiny houses. Are they all trailers, or are any tiny houses legit framed structures?
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Oct 29, 2020 04:08
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Cum AllYeFaithful posted:Milwaukee median home cost: $137,751 / The average income of a Milwaukee resident is $19,636 a year. The US average is $28,555 a year This is a really good article and paints a good picture of the tale of two cities. It doesn't bring in to account suburban and metro areas though, focusing only on the city itself. I do like the point they make about high-income residents demanding lots of services which drives lower income jobs within the city, where hospitality workers (like myself) can't afford to live. Average income per resident is an interesting choice of statistic to present this argument though. I would argue that median household income paints a better picture of what people are actually bringing in. That number is $42,087. https://datausa.io/profile/geo/milwaukee-wi/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20Milwaukee%2C%20WI%20had,%2442%2C087%2C%20a%207.64%25%20increase. I'm not denying it sucks to be poor in America, just that there are other options out there (than living in a $1000/mo van down by the river in SF. Poohs Packin fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 04:20
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It's interesting, although not surprising, how San Francisco started out as this utopian progressive city, only to turn into an unaffordable dystopian nightmare, with Third World levels of inequality. This is the future that awaits us all
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Oct 29, 2020 14:38
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Phlegmish posted:It's interesting, although not surprising, how San Francisco started out as this utopian progressive city, only to turn into an unaffordable dystopian nightmare, with Third World levels of inequality. This is the future that awaits us all I’m desperately scrambling to come up with a down payment on some kind of affordable living space that I can pay off in my lifetime before it’s too late I’ve watched wave after wave of overpaid tech people turn 30 and leave CA just to buy up housing elsewhere, driving prices through the roof
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Oct 29, 2020 15:48
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The_Continental posted:This is a really good article and paints a good picture of the tale of two cities. It doesn't bring in to account suburban and metro areas though, focusing only on the city itself. I do like the point they make about high-income residents demanding lots of services which drives lower income jobs within the city, where hospitality workers (like myself) can't afford to live. people always write off the suburbs, even when pointing at the boomer/millenial wealth dichotomy which itself is largely created due to suburban homeownership now the suburbs are really bad but the absolute binary people revert to in these discussions tends to be that you can only either live in a shoebox NYC walkup or in a trailer behind a meatpacking plant. the large plurality of americans who live in crappy suburbs aren't mentioned, i guess because suburbs are so boring they resist attempts to even conceptualize them Cum AllYeFaithful posted:Milwaukee median home cost: $137,751 / The average income of a Milwaukee resident is $19,636 a year. The US average is $28,555 a year you really need to look at median HHI when comparing these stats as historically, single people (or families on single incomes) do not tend to be homeowners this is not disagreement with your overall argument, you and i agree on the problem of stagnating incomes and rising home prices. you've just got holes in your method of argumentation Mr. Fall Down Terror fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 16:02
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Fair points made about the arguments put forth.The_Continental posted:I'm not denying it sucks to be poor in America, just that there are other options out there (than living in a $1000/mo van down by the river in SF. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6vrc1mPsNo
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Oct 29, 2020 16:11
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US zoning laws have hosed things up and it doesn't help most cities' planners are unqualified. Mixed use areas and multipurpose buildings could really help suburbs, but instead we have cookie cutter cost cutting housing /apartment development interspersed with walmarts, targets, and bestbuys. On top of that HOAs and gentrification force out older neighborhoods, then proceed to bulldoze those buildings to plop down 'luxury' development. I love when older people move out to the country, 20-30 minutes north of the city, and build mini mansions because its cheap. Thanks for adding onto suburban sprawl and building a structure that will probably be abandoned after you die. Edit: This is not to say that the original intent of zoning didn't work. Keeping factories and dumps away from housing is a good thing since people love to dump toxic materials anywhere they can. Look up Deepwood neighborhoods in Dallas, an illegal dumping site. SPACE HOMOS fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 16:23
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 I'm inclined to disagree that "zoning" is really the issue when it comes to affordable housing. "affordable housing" if we're really gonna talk about it refers to mostly inner-city high-density multi-family housing. If there are goons here who have experience with state housing I'd love to hear them. I've live in subsidized rent buildings in Cleveland and Detroit. Not great at best. I've probably got PTSD at worst. Having to shuffle would be robbers out at 3am and such... Uhh, but really its not zoning but rather the incentives and deals made with developers that pushes "real" people out of cities and brings in the super rich. Whats crazy is that Chicago is one of the first master planned cities, the Burnham plan is an incredibly beautiful outline of a city as it should be. Its a big reason why much of the waterfront hasn't been privatized and is still public beaches and stuff.
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Oct 29, 2020 16:43
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also im pretttyy drunk
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Oct 29, 2020 16:44
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I live in Dallas county and the city itself is not big enough for inner-city living, at least not for low to medium income people. So my views are skewed based on the shithole that is the DFW metroplex.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:00
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By 'zoning' perhaps they are thinking of local bylaws mandating minimum lot sizes and minimum square footage for housing. This is why most construction is detached single family homes on large tracts of land
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Oct 29, 2020 17:10
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Cum AllYeFaithful posted:ps://www.wbez.org/stories/the-middle-class-is-shrinking-everywhere-in-chicago-its-almost-gone/e63cb407-5d1e-41b1-9124-a717d4fb1b0b[/url] quote:Two-flats, which middle-class families could afford because of the rental income, are now regularly converted to single-family homes. Heh, my best friend's sister married a rich German dude that she met at Northwestern. She was a teacher and living with two roommates in Lakeview. Now, she lives in Ravenswood, where her husband bought a three-flat, gave the other two tenants a 30 day notice to vacate and promptly converted it into a very large home. For three people and a dog. My parents first lived in a two-flat in Ravenswood, the landlords lived downstairs and the rent was reasonable.
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Oct 29, 2020 17:21
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:By 'zoning' perhaps they are thinking of local bylaws mandating minimum lot sizes and minimum square footage for housing. This is why most construction is detached single family homes on large tracts of land most of the time when people invoke 'zoning' it's hand wavey and meant to imply I Read An Article One Time And Also A Youtube explaining the problem in a superficial way exclusionary zoning is just a tool, the real root of the problem is fragmentary local land use controls emphasizing short term cashouts through quick and profitable development of land. in the 20th century as automobile ownership rates rose and the automotive travel mode became dominant, a whole bunch of land around cities which wasn't previously worth building on is now worth building on. decades of rapid suburban development ensue. in a purely economic sense, exclusionary single family zoning is the least burdensome way to maximize profit on land development. it helps that this is also a great method to enforce socioeconomic segregation once more explicit forms of racial segregation like covenants are banned so the deeper problem is that our free market land allocation and development methods create places which kind of suck to live in, don't house many people per land area, are environmentally destructive to a huge degree, and fall apart quickly. people who want to reform zoning to fix it are on the right track but they tend to lose sight of the bigger problem, either from lack of awareness or hesitance at the scale of the problem.no meaningful zoning reform will do anything useful on a metro scale without coordinated regional planning. otherwise you're just playing whack a mole by pressuring one city to change zoning while other adjacent cities refuse. focusing on zoning reform as if it is the end of the process and not like step one of ten is really just symbolic policy. or worse, people who believe that banning SFH or R-1 typical designations will uncork the glorious free market to build five story condo blocks for everyone, and this quasi-YIMBY argument is just libertarianism wearing a che guevara shirt
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Oct 29, 2020 17:56
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We should just create those giant towers from Judge Dredd. Public housing and services provided by the government and it'll solve a lot of our housing and employment problems. Judge Dredd's horrific vision of our future could turn out to be our best case solution!
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Oct 29, 2020 18:29
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luxury handset posted:decades of rapid suburban development ensue. in a purely economic sense, exclusionary single family zoning is the least burdensome way to maximize profit on land development. it helps that this is also a great method to enforce socioeconomic segregation once more explicit forms of racial segregation like covenants are banned Real estate people are racist scum. Edit: Solice Kirsk posted:Public housing and services provided by the government and it'll solve a lot of our housing and employment problems. https://www.huduser.gov/portal/pdredge/pdr_edge_featd_article_011314.html Cum AllYeFaithful fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 18:33
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Solice Kirsk posted:We should just create those giant towers from Judge Dredd. Public housing and services provided by the government and it'll solve a lot of our housing and employment problems. i don't think giant towers are the way to go in the united states but public housing is the only, underscored only, viable solution to the affordable housing crisis loving around with zoning reform and permit variances and the like are just incrementalist pragmatic neoliberal stopgap solutions, and this makes self identified leftists real mad if you point it out since for some reason a lot of them have latched on to slaying racist single family zoning as being the best course of action for affordable housing (it isn't, not at all)
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Oct 29, 2020 19:00
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The_Continental posted:
I live in government housing in Victoria, BC, Canada. It's fine. Reasonably well maintained, no vermin, safe, clean, and pegged to 30% of income. Mostly low-rise apartments, some townhouses with cute postage stamp yards for families with children. Because it is pegged to income you have to turn over your tax returns and bank records once a year to prove you haven't suddenly gotten rich. There is a mandatory inspection once a year, but they just do a quick walkthrough and don't hassle you unless you've been punching holes in the walls or live in such filth that it's a health and safety hazard. Even living in filth doesn't get you evicted, they give you a week or whatever to clean up and then inspect again. If it still isn't acceptable they just hire cleaners to come through and clean your place up and then bill you for it. There is a guy in my building who has that involuntary cleaning done to him once or twice a year. Locally BC Housing hasn't built much new stock since the 70s* and there isn't nearly enough, so mostly you have to be disabled or have children to get in. Most of the singles/couples housing isn't actually friendly to serious physical disabilities, it is mostly 2 to 4 story apartment buildings without elevators where the majority of units aren't suitable for someone who uses a walker much less a wheelchair. With the result that these buildings tend to be chock full of people who, like me, have serious mental illness as their primary disability. It isn't a care home environment though, so the staff on site are there to maintain the property not deal with the wellbeing of the residents. So things get a little weird occasionally. *There has been some social housing built in Victoria since the 70s, but it's all individual non-profits, not government. Recently BC Housing bought a motel they are using for emergency housing for homeless people during covid. It's not like a shelter, once a room is assigned to you it is yours for the duration, no sharing. These are folks moved from the tent camps, and to get in they were only allowed to bring two small crates of possessions, so their tents and other camping stuff they accumulated to survive on the streets was thrown out to prevent hoarding. There are social workers and whatnot working there to check on everyone regularly and I think they also get one or two meals delivered each day. Providing food and shelter means they don't need to go panhandling during a pandemic. The staff also help them get welfare and apply for permanent housing, but there isn't much vacancy in permanent housing so that isn't going so well.
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Oct 29, 2020 19:45
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SPACE HOMOS posted:I live in Dallas county and the city itself is not big enough for inner-city living, at least not for low to medium income people. So my views are skewed based on the shithole that is the DFW metroplex. What are you talking about? Pretty much everything east of the Trinity besides Kessler Park and southeast of downtown is full of affordable housing, a lot of it nice single family homes built in the 50-60s back when it was considered basically the suburbs. The biggest problem seems to the fact that those being the "bad places" is engrained into people because of decades of racial prejudice. I swear about 95% of people that live in DFW have no idea that Oak Cliff is full of fancy mansions and not in fact a gang infested slum. Three Olives fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Oct 29, 2020 |
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Oct 29, 2020 19:57
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I have friends that live in Oakcliff; two which are well off and another who inherited the house. Oakcliff is not inner city. The median income in dallas is 43k. If a house is 192k, you'll never get approved for a loan with that income.
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Oct 29, 2020 20:08
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SPACE HOMOS posted:I have friends that live in Oakcliff; two which are well off and another who inherited the house. Oakcliff is not inner city. The median income in dallas is 43k. If a house is 192k, you'll never get approved for a loan with that income. 192k honestly doesn't seem like a lot, I paid significantly more for my tiny house, I'm surprised that you wouldn't be able to get a loan to make up the total as long as you have a job and at least some savings. I guess the US really learned its lesson after 2008.
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Oct 29, 2020 20:16
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SPACE HOMOS posted:I have friends that live in Oakcliff; two which are well off and another who inherited the house. Oakcliff is not inner city. The median income in dallas is 43k. If a house is 192k, you'll never get approved for a loan with that income. How is it not? There is literally a streetcar from Oak Cliff to the CBD.
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Oct 29, 2020 21:10
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It frustrates me as someone who lives in a semi-suburban area. Mixed to use zoning is really important to creating healthy small communities. It makes it so you don't need to drive 15 minutes to buy groceries, or can have green space right outside your back door. At the same time, as the OP said, it's the first step in a long process to developing sustainable communities that work for all incomes. Some cool news on my front is that I might have found work with a company that uses HUD grants to help low-income families remodel their homes. Had a preliminary call today and I'm going to come in next week to talk about working with them.
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Oct 30, 2020 00:58
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luxury handset posted:no meaningful zoning reform will do anything useful on a metro scale without coordinated regional planning. Can we hug? Lets hug.
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Oct 30, 2020 01:24
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Solice Kirsk posted:We should just create those giant towers from Judge Dredd. Public housing and services provided by the government and it'll solve a lot of our housing and employment problems. Lol we tried this (it didnt work)
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Oct 30, 2020 01:25
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Pretty much the gist of high-density affordable/public housing is 'No one's built any since the 70s' absolutely everywhere.Solice Kirsk posted:We should just create those giant towers from Judge Dredd. Public housing and services provided by the government and it'll solve a lot of our housing and employment problems. Judge Dredd was written as a commentary on a society which still had a welfare state and acknowledged problems to some extent, and the idea that the police and judiciary have some oversight; in many ways far more idealistic than modern america!
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Oct 30, 2020 01:35
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The_Continental posted:Lol we tried this (it didnt work) Didn't work.in Judge Dredd, either.
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Oct 30, 2020 01:50
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Look, it's either Dredd-grade Towerariums or starving in the street. Choose wisely now.
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Oct 30, 2020 01:54
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Anyone seen the incredible movie Brazil? It'll just be that, but Amazon or Google will own the ducts instead of Central Services https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B61_5sRoBI
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Oct 30, 2020 10:57
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The_Continental posted:Lol we tried this (it didnt work) Yeah, goons love the principle of living in giant helltowers, but in practice it's the constant equivalent of riding in a subway car with an old man who appears to have soiled himself, a sickly pale guy with no shoes who keeps nodding out, and a guy very obviously concealing a switchblade. Except now you live in the subway car and if you get hurt the paramedics won't attend to you without a police escort. Admittedly, a lot of that is a chicken/egg scenario, where the only people who live in giant helltowers are people who can't afford to live elsewhere, but luxury space communism only really works when Riker isn't being held up for money every time he gets on the elevator and the ship isn't a gigantic fire trap
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Oct 30, 2020 18:06
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The fact anyone held up the world of Judge Dredd as the best way to do things..... that can't have been serious?
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Oct 30, 2020 18:09
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It's 100% serious. It would also solve our police brutality problem. Can't have police brutality without police! I don't know who wrote Judge Dredd, but they were a visionary.
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Oct 30, 2020 18:20
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Solice Kirsk posted:It's 100% serious. It would also solve our police brutality problem. Can't have police brutality without police!
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Oct 30, 2020 18:38
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Solice Kirsk posted:Can't have police brutality when police are judge, jury, and executioner! FTFY
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Oct 30, 2020 19:31
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