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Insanite posted:This is spot on. Biden's plan is essentially a moderate one from a couple of decades ago, when "global warming" was preferred to "climate change." a moderate stance from a couple decades ago is very likely a stance that leads to the collapse of modern civilization and hundreds of millions or billions of deaths
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Nov 12, 2020 04:05
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fart simpson posted:so you don't really care much about the actual results and impact of things? shrugging and letting hundreds of millions of people die is totally respectful because it's constitutional? The president is supposed to follow the constitution and that does matter, I didn't like it when Trump did things the constitution says the president can't do. 
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Nov 12, 2020 04:09
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ok i'll write that down as a "yes" in my goons.xlsx then
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Nov 12, 2020 04:14
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fart simpson posted:a moderate stance from a couple decades ago is very likely a stance that leads to the collapse of modern civilization and hundreds of millions or billions of deaths Sure. It’s insulting coming from the “believe in science” crowd.
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Nov 12, 2020 04:44
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Majorian posted:Why? Explain why you're excited, and why you think others should be excited as well. This wasn't directed at me, but from the last two years or so of these threads, I'm lead to believe that this almost entirely depends on what your conception of politics is, and if you understand it as a struggle for material resources or as a predominantly -- or wholly -- cultural thing. A lot of the responses to a Biden win expose this feeling, either in that he's entirely defined by his not being Trump, or the idea that despite his career/campaign/donors/general political orbit he can be "pushed left" (whatever is meant by the word "left" here), or that whatever token gestures his administration makes towards climate disaster or police violence or skyrocketing inequality are "better than nothing" despite not doing anything meaningful to address the problems, much less their causes. The Good Team winning is what's important, not that we're locked in to an economy that will continue to grind the working class into dust to juice Amazon stock, and not that we're recreating the conditions that gave us Trump in the first place. The strongest evidence for this view of politics-as-culture comes from the result of the election itself: global pandemic that left nearly a quarter million Americans dead, the economy in freefall, and a president who made no material concessions or even promises to the voting population and did nothing but culturally signal gained ground, not only among his own party, but in the "safe" minority voting blocs that were supposed to save America in the liberal demographics-as-destiny outlook. American politics been totally unmoored from any sort of material struggle between the working class and capital. Joe Biden winning is exciting if your politics starts and stops at a cultural level, because you won the highest victory over the worst enemy, and now you'll get to enjoy at least four years of the right sort of people saying the right sort of things on TV and your political enemies have to eat poo poo and grouse on Twitter and Facebook. We'll still have concentration camps and endless war and scores of people dying from the global pandemic and mass homelessness and mass unemployment -- but -- at least it's not Trump! You don't have to see him on TV any more. You don't have to be shocked and appalled at the latest scandal. You don't have to spend your day mad as hell at Vladimir Putin for doing disinformatskaya. You don't have to check under your bed for Proud Boys. You can finally feel proud and patriotic again -- and this sounds disingenuous on my part but if you do look at the world this way and you have invested a significant part of your mental well-being in "politics", this is really, deeply meaningful to you. You life is actually better because Joe Biden has won and the psychic froth you've worked yourself into getting mad about Trump and co. can finally dissipate. You will feel better. You will legitimately be a happier person. If, however, you're within the still-small fraction of the self-identified left that is anticapitalist in any meaningful sense, Joe Biden is (if anything) a lateral move. Nothing will be done to address any of the massive, structural problems facing the nation and the world by the Democratic party, because they are (exactly like the Republicans) the party of capital. This is not just me saying that Biden is lying or won't be able to accomplish what he's going to set out to do, but that even the furthest extent of his campaign promises won't do anything meaningful to combat any of the problems we face, let alone address their root causes in any way whatsoever. Like everyone expected, Joe Biden is eliminating any traces of the nascent American Left from the party and driving the Democrats to the right -- something that has been happening since he became the nominee, but really kicked into high gear the nanosecond the race was called in his favor. In the interests of fairness, here's what good stuff I think might actually come about during a Biden presidency: - Some amount of loan forgiveness. Not too much, but enough to keep the economy limping along for another few years. I think he probably gets the student loan stuff he's been talking about out the door. - Some more robust LGBT (especially T) protections in the public sphere, both because it's politically "free" (base likes it, doesn't bother capital) and to attempt to remediate Kamala's anti-trans history - Alphabet agencies going after far-right groups like the III%ers and Proud Boys. This one is kind of a mixed bag because I have to imagine that if this does become a winning political strategy (and I have to imagine it will be because it'll be very popular with the base) it's going to flip (back) to Antifa/BLM when the reaction comes.
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Nov 12, 2020 05:42
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The alphabet agencies are absolutely going to be going after BLM first and foremost just like they have been under Obama, and completely ignore the Proud Boys because some of Biden's Republican buddies will get mad.
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Nov 12, 2020 05:46
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:In the interests of fairness, here's what good stuff I think might actually come about during a Biden presidency: Do you not consider stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia as a good thing? Or do you not think he'll follow through on that?
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Nov 12, 2020 06:08
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Kalit posted:Do you not consider stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia as a good thing? Or do you not think he'll follow through on that? A very, very good chunk of Islamic radicalism can be traced right back to the Saudis having insane imams spreading their poison, which in turn fuels right-wing movements using it as an excuse to treat people like poo poo. Not giving them guns anymore doesn't solve this problem.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:13
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Blarghalt posted:A very, very good chunk of Islamic radicalism can be traced right back to the Saudis having insane imams spreading their poison, which in turn fuels right-wing movements using it as an excuse to treat people like poo poo. Not giving them guns anymore doesn't solve this problem. The weapons we sell them have been directly used in the Yemen civil war... I'm guessing not giving them guns would inflict less pain on Yemen..... Kalit fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 06:18
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Kalit posted:Do you not consider stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia as a good thing? Or do you not think he'll follow through on that? I think he'll follow through if he can find someone else willing to buy the weapons. I also think so long as the Saudis make the right comments and pretend to pull back from Yemen he'll gladly resume sales, probably with some unenforceable condition about not using the missiles we sell them on civilians. I guess he could surprise me and go hard on isolating the Saudis as punishment for their last four years of brutal debauchery, but I'd be willing to bet the people in Biden's orbit still view the House of Saud as an important tool for containing the Shia menace. Ultimately I'd expect some token rhetoric that is quickly appeased by kind words and a few public actions. The Saudis will say they are very sorry and agree to let women wear thinner veils on particularly hot days, it will be hailed as a great day for feminism in the Middle East, and the missiles will flow once more.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:24
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Wicked Them Beats posted:I think he'll follow through if he can find someone else willing to buy the weapons. I also think so long as the Saudis make the right comments and pretend to pull back from Yemen he'll gladly resume sales, probably with some unenforceable condition about not using the missiles we sell them on civilians. Yea, optimistically I'm hoping Biden actually follows through on his "reassessing our relationship with Saudi Arabia" comment. But as long as he at least stops loving selling weapons and stops the US's active support of Saudi Arabia's intervention in Yemen, I'll take it. At least we won't have coziness between Kushner and MBS anymore.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:33
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Kalit posted:Yea, optimistically I'm hoping Biden actually follows through on his "reassessing our relationship with Saudi Arabia" comment. But as long as he at least stops loving selling weapons and stops the US's active support of Saudi Arabia's intervention in Yemen, I'll take it. At least we won't have coziness between Kushner and MBS anymore. What makes me most doubtful is that Obama was the one who started our involvement in Yemen, but as always I would love to be surprised.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:37
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Wicked Them Beats posted:What makes me most doubtful is that Obama was the one who started our involvement in Yemen, but as always I would love to be surprised. Yea, something about hindsight 20/20 and Biden might have less bloodlust than Obama. I know, looking at Biden's history doesn't fill us with hope. Which is why I'm holding out hope that the original involvement was Obama's decision (or Biden realized it was a huge mistake). At a minimum, Biden has been outspoken about this issue multiple times in the past year. Kalit fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 06:49
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Kalit posted:Yea, something about hindsight 20/20 and Biden might have less bloodlust than Obama. I know, look at Biden's history doesn't fill us with hope. Which is why I'm holding out hope that the original involvement was Obama's decision (or Biden realized it was a huge mistake). At a minimum, Biden has been outspoken about this issue multiple times in the past year. It'll be nice if you end up right, but smart money isn't betting on it. This is the guy who used his position as chair of the Senate's foreign relations committee to go full steam ahead on killing a million Iraqis based on lies. (note that he has since claimed he never thought Saddam had WMDs, which, um)
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Nov 12, 2020 06:52
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Kalit posted:Do you not consider stopping arms sales to Saudi Arabia as a good thing? Or do you not think he'll follow through on that? to echo WTB and WWM's sentiments: yeah I very much hope so but I have a hard time in believing there's a good chance that Biden will draw that down in a meaningful way.
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Nov 12, 2020 06:56
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We'll see, one way or the other. Let's hope for the best but prepare for the worst. (unlike what leftists did with Obama, which was just...prepare for the best)
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Nov 12, 2020 07:22
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:- Alphabet agencies going after far-right groups like the III%ers and Proud Boys. This one is kind of a mixed bag because I have to imagine that if this does become a winning political strategy (and I have to imagine it will be because it'll be very popular with the base) it's going to flip (back) to Antifa/BLM when the reaction comes. Yeah, not only will this sort of thing be used as an excuse to go after "radical left" groups, but it also creates the illusion that the "far right" is primarily characterized by these fringe groups. It really can't be understated how nuts it is that people freak out about the Proud Boys in a country where ICE and our policing/prison systems are a thing. It's a symptom of the fact that most people have internalized the "normalcy" of those things. Even if they might think that they're bad, they don't really think of them in the same way they think of other crimes/atrocities. In general it is very frightening how much liberals have thrown their support behind the CIA/FBI in response to Trump.
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Nov 12, 2020 08:26
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https://twitter.com/socialistmma/status/1326777226927493120?s=21 so excited!!!
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Nov 12, 2020 08:28
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Raskolnikov38 posted:https://twitter.com/socialistmma/status/1326777226927493120?s=21 it would be helpful to explain why you are so excited about this policy reversal. how can we engage with you on the topic without you presenting an actual argument?
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Nov 12, 2020 08:57
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4 Even with the senate I was expecting a pretty tepid presidency but I have zero expectation that anything gets done over the next four years. Basically the only benefit is that Trump has hosed off, but I find that less exciting and more a relief about me not having to read about him
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Nov 12, 2020 09:06
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Reaverbot posted:Basically the only benefit is that Trump has hosed off, but I find that less exciting and more a relief about me not having to read about him you could have stopped at anytime
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Nov 12, 2020 09:08
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I appreciate how GreyJoyBastard & Herstory only wandered in to get mad about people being skeptical of their beloved pragmatic incrementalism and big wet boy in the White House. Meanwhile I'm ecstatic about support for minority groups being murdered by police being thrown under the bus before the ink is even dry on the vote totals. Its also funny that Schumer floated $50k in student loan debt reduction a few days ago and its already down to $10k. By the time Biden takes office it'll be an option to refinance, for a small fee, for anyone who has been current on their loans for at least three years.
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Nov 12, 2020 10:31
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Pick posted:As for climate though, These are vague as poo poo and promise nothing. quote:Require limits on methane pollution for oil and gas operations. What limits? Infinity minus one tons of methane per year? quote:Use the federal government procurement system to work towards 100% clean energy and zero-emissions vehicles. By when? 2530? With what milestone targets along the way? quote:Ensure US government buildings and facilities are more efficient and climate-ready. "More efficient"? Congrats, we're using one watt fewer per year. Mission accomplished. And what does "climate-ready" even mean? quote:Implement the already-existing Clean Air Act, Low-hanging fruit, but OK. quote:and reduce greenhouse gas emissions from transportation To what? By when? With what milestones along the way? quote:by developing new fuel economy standards to ensure all new sales for light- and medium-duty vehicles will be electrified, What is the specific goal for the standards to result in? When will they be implemented? What's a light-duty vehicle vs. a medium-duty vehicle vs. a heavy-duty vehicle in this context? quote:and annual improvements for heavy duty vehicles. Improvements, how? For how long? What's a heavy duty vehicle here? And why only those? quote:Double down on liquid fuels like advanced biofuels and make agriculture a key part of the solution to the climate crisis. Feel-good crap with no specific actions or methods of how any of this will be accomplished. quote:Reduce emissions and cut consumer costs To what? quote:through new standards for appliance and building efficiency. Which appliances? Which buildings? What about the shitload of existing buildings out there? What are the targets here? quote:Require federal permit decisions to consider effects of greenhouse gas emissions and climate change, Just consider, huh? "Yep, looks like greenhouse gasses are gonna skyrocket here. Approved." quote:and ensure every federal infrastructure investment reduces climate pollution. Reduces in what way? What are the targets? How will it not just be, "We're gonna put a shitload of CO2 into the air, but these roads will have the potential to carry more electric vehicles, so it all balances out in the end." quote:Require public companies to disclose climate risks and greenhouse gas emissions in their operations and supply chains. Not a bad thing in and of itself, but pointless unless there's further action taken. Also, "climate risks" is very vague, and how will they be required to disclose them? Whey wouldn't they just bury them on their web site so nobody can find them? quote:Protect biodiversity, slow extinction rates and conserve 30% of America's lands and waters by 2030. HOLY poo poo AN ACTUAL TARGET AND A DATE. IT'S A loving MIRACLE . . . which is still too loving vague. What does it mean to "conserve" these lands, in this context? And why wouldn't the next GOP administration just stop the process, if it's gonna take until 2030? "Protect biodiversity" is also meaningless without further info, as is "slow extinction rates". quote:Permanently protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, How? From what? quote:establish national parks and monuments, This is a good thing, but where, how many, and when? quote:ban new oil and gas permits on public lands and waters, What about the existing ones? Why not find a way to cancel those? quote:modify royalties to account for climate costs . . . what? How the gently caress is that even supposed to work? Who gets to decide what the climate costs are, and how they're offset? quote:and creating programs to enhance reforestation Enhance, how? Where? By how much? When? quote:and develop renewable energy on federal lands and waters to double offshore wind by 2030. Again, why wouldn't the next GOP president just nuke the initiative? The only things here with any level of specificity leave the door open for doing nothing for four years because it's a ten-year plan, and can be looked at later. I want to know what, specifically, Biden is going to do in the first month, first quarter, first year, etc. He's had decades of failed runs to work on his plan of what to do as president, so what, specifically, is it? And, what are actual measures of success or failure within a four year term that can be directly tested against?
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Nov 12, 2020 10:59
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So it looks like Biden is planning to do some good things with immigration, such as ending the Muslim ban and restoring protections for Dreamers. But we're already seeing the signs that, for the most part, everything old is new again with immigration:quote:Biden named Cecilia Munoz, President Barack Obama’s top immigration adviser, to his transition team, which some interpreted as signaling a more moderate tack. Oh that name is familiar... https://twitter.com/axcomrade/status/1326764010725896201?s=20 https://twitter.com/axcomrade/status/1326767953543565313?s=20 And the article goes on to tell us what we can expect from Biden: quote:Biden is expected to return to criteria similar to what Obama adopted toward the end of his tenure, largely limiting deportations to people with serious criminal records in the United States. Ah, the old myth that you have 400,000 serious criminals who need to be rounded up and shoved out of the country every year. A fine start, but what else? quote:Biden wants to get rid of policies that have been “detrimental” to seeking asylum — such as the policy to make asylum-seekers wait in Mexico for hearings in U.S. immigration court — but he is expected to move cautiously to avoid triggering more arrivals. quote:Stephen Yale-Loehr, a professor of immigration law practice at Cornell Law School, thinks Biden will move cautiously on asylum to avoid setting off a new wave of arrivals and says other changes will face “procedural and practical problems.” Lots of this language. We're going to do wonderful things, honest, but we have to "move cautiously," "take time," and we need commissions, reviews, and studies first. Goodness, we wouldn't want to take too many bold, immediate actions! And this assumes they don't just sweep it all under the rug and give themselves an out to continue with mass deportations indefinitely: quote:At least initially, Biden may keep in place a Trump administration order that authorizes Customs and Border Protection to quickly expel any migrant as a public health measure during the COVID-19 pandemic. If they maintain this rule then removing the Muslim ban is largely symbolic, they'll just be forcing every refugee and migrant back across the border for specious "health concerns." Guess we'll see how committed Biden actually is to making any real changes here, but it looks like we're, at best, going to get a retread of the Obama years, but this time the Republicans are starting from a stronger position than 2009 so Biden will have way more room to shrug and gesture at Congress when he fails to fix the problems. I dunno about the rest of you but my excitement is reaching a fever pitch.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:40
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Pick posted:Biden's official stance is a global warming is real, and the Biden plan was consistent with that stance. Fracking is absolutely negotiable, because if that is necessary to win, that is much better than the Trump plan which was to light the West Coast on fire (I live here Nah it really isn’t if you actually think anything needs to be done about climate change.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:45
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I'm super excited to hear less and less about Donald Trump and to have some sanity prevailing in the United States, the most powerful country in the world. That's about it. Trump supporters didn't disappear anywhere and there seems to be no new plans in dealing with them, just the old "there are no blue states and red states so lets heal the divide" stuff and you've tried that since forever. So come 2022 and 2024, they're probably going to win something because America keeps coddling its absolute worst people for some reason.
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Nov 12, 2020 15:45
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Nucleic Acids posted:Nah it really isn’t if you actually think anything needs to be done about climate change. hey buddy are you seriously saying there’s no difference between 9 degrees and 10 degrees of warming by 2100?
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Nov 12, 2020 16:16
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1. I expect a redo of Obama 2012-2016. He will be blocked at every turn by republicans. He'll be lucky if McConnell puts his cabinet picks up for a vote in the senate. He won't seat judges or any supreme court justices. Biden will constantly try to make them happy at the expense of his own base and the Republicans will not return the favor. Attempts to reign in the white supremacists will be neutered when Republicans complain about it. He will not change trumps immigration plan much; the kid jails *might* go away. The people trump activated will go back to ignoring politics, leading to a Dem loss in the midterms and he will get impeached but not removed and will lose in 2024 to a Republican, who will immediately move to remove any gains, however small, from the Biden administration. The democrats takeaway will be that they need to be more conservative. All while the supreme court destroys the progressive gains of the 20th century and makes it unconstitutional to fix america. Meatball fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 16:42
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Meatball posted:1. I expect a redo of Obama 2012-2016. He will be blocked at every turn by republicans. He'll be lucky if McConnell puts his cabinet picks up for a vote in the senate. He won't seat judges or any supreme court justices. Biden will constantly try to make them happy at the expense of his own base and the Republicans will not return the favor. Attempts to reign in the white supremacists will be neutered when Republicans complain about it. He will not change trumps immigration plan much; the kid jails *might* go away. But Biden will follow a piece of paper written by old slaveowners, so really you can feel great about it all.
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Nov 12, 2020 19:10
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DarkCrawler posted:I'm super excited to hear less and less about Donald Trump and to have some sanity prevailing in the United States, the most powerful country in the world. Lol we've put a senile old rapist in the white house. That's not sane. If we were sane biden would be in prison.
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Nov 12, 2020 19:32
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But did you see how smooth he was when he said that republicans would definitely work with him? Absolutely lissencephalous!
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Nov 12, 2020 19:48
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I'm unironically excited to have a functioning presidency and some basic, if not drastic actions on the issues I care about OP.
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Nov 12, 2020 19:51
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Solaris 2.0 posted:I'm unironically excited to have a functioning presidency and some basic, if not drastic actions on the issues I care about OP. Same here. It's clear from the 2020 results that Joe Biden was precisely the correct candidate for the moment and the Democratic Party picked wisely.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:05
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LinYutang posted:Same here. It's clear from the 2020 results that Joe Biden was precisely the correct candidate for the moment and the Democratic Party picked wisely. I can't get treatment for medical issues without going into crippling debt and Joe Biden is not changing that in any way.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:19
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Yes but that doesn't make a lot of difference to joe biden or the democratic party, so they still picked well 
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Nov 12, 2020 20:23
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LinYutang posted:It's clear from the 2020 results that Joe Biden was precisely the correct candidate for the moment and the Democratic Party picked wisely. Can you clarify what you mean here? What about the 2020 results signals that Joe Biden was "precisely the correct candidate" aside from his winning? If you think no other candidate could have won, why do you think so?
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Nov 12, 2020 20:25
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The 2020 results where the Democrats lost ground in the House, likely failed to take the Senate, and got trounced in state races nationwide is your evidence that Biden was a great candidate that ran a great campaign. "Well Bernie would have done worse!" is obviously your followup but I reiterate that there is zero data that suggests running on unpopular policy and constantly demeaning your own voting base is the slam dunk winning recipe for electoral success. Bernie would have outperformed Joe by offering to help people and not constantly shouting at detractors that they should vote for Trump instead. Biden drat near gave this election away because he's defensive over his death camps when he should have been pledging to shut them down. Instead he told activists to go vote for Trump and a whole bunch of minority voters called his bluff and made what should have been a walk in the park a nailbiter.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:34
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Motivated reasoning. If all you care about is orange man bad and now orange man is gone, qed
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Nov 12, 2020 20:34
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Can you clarify what you mean here? What about the 2020 results signals that Joe Biden was "precisely the correct candidate" aside from his winning? If you think no other candidate could have won, why do you think so? Other candidates might have won, but they might also have done bad things like Medicare For All or not bombing Iran, so Biden was the perfect candidate
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Nov 12, 2020 20:36
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I think by now we all have a pretty good idea of how excited everyone is for Joe Biden. Discussion of the president-elect is welcome in USPol.
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Nov 12, 2020 20:41
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