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Timeless Appeal posted:They also provide a three page vision overview. What I'm seeing is a lot of obfuscating language and a proud partnership with the anti-healthcare psychos at CAP, but honestly unless you work for them I'm not really interested in yelling at you about this or in derailing a potentially interesting thread to kick over the minutiae of this one specific NGO
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Nov 14, 2020 20:49
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Crane Fist posted:I was just looking for an overview, if I have to do loving homework to understand what your movement wants then you're doing it very wrong you've read marx, surely?
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Nov 14, 2020 21:14
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Relevant Tangent posted:you've read marx, surely? I because a marxist completely by accident without ever successfully reading a book
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Nov 14, 2020 21:21
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Crane Fist posted:What I'm seeing is a lot of obfuscating language and a proud partnership with the anti-healthcare psychos at CAP, but honestly unless you work for them I'm not really interested in yelling at you about this or in derailing a potentially interesting thread to kick over the minutiae of this one specific NGO You claimed that the MeToo movement was dead because of Joe Biden and then dead in the cradle once it was popularized by rich white women. I showed you a non-for-profit run by women of color who want to fix the material conditions of poor people to help stop sexual assaults. You said they had no clear vision, so I told you to read their 30 page plan. You refused to read the 30 page plan, so I suggest to read the three page vision statement and then used tangential criticism with CAP to disregard them. I think Somfin said pretty eloquently that the Tara Reade case as did similar cases in which powerful man escaped consequences for their actions damages the movement--although I think people are caught up in an incomplete vision of the movement. But just because these men and their powerful, hypocritical enablers exist doesn't mean that we should give ourselves permission to give up on a movement. MeToo does not need to be dead for the criticisms to stand and for components of the movement to be examined. But it felt like folks were just shifting goalposts around to prove that is. And obviously the Survivor's Agenda is new, but our exchanges have mostly felt like you just sticking your fingers in your ear and making up excuses to not engage in an agenda that is pretty Leftist friendly. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Nov 15, 2020 |
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Nov 15, 2020 01:40
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Alright, I thought it might make an interesting dicussion since this Survivor's Agenda seems like a good microcosm of the self-perpetuating NGO ecosystem I figured I'd actually read the policy document they're putting out and at least to my mind, it's always a bad sign when an organization spends more time listing the various oppression vectors of its members than proposing anything that would alleviate them. There's reams of meaningless bodies and spaces blather, recognising lived experiences, amplifying voices, etc which means nothing and achieves even less. Beyond that there's plenty of things that would be nice- health care for all, housing justice, an end to the myriad inequalities of the 21st century- but the only actual concrete plan of action (creating spaces, listening to voices and so on aside) seems to be "work within the system to elect Dems, and donate to these other NGOs". So basically feeding the ouroboros. This seems like a good example of the way MeToo is going to be used in the future- its going to be professionalised by orgs like this that exist to sheepdog people into the existing infrastructure. Use these survivor-brand NGOs to make sure all the justified outrage about the treatment of women in society is funnelled into the dead end of electoral politics rather than anywhere that would challenge the hideous status quo, collect some high-profile scalps to make it seem like progress is being made and make sure you amplify the voices of these PoC survivors who want you to keep the donations coming in and the energy safely contained. If there was any interest in actually forcing a change the partner list would be less Neera Tanden and more IWW, but union links don't get your founder a speaking slot at the Ozyfest
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Nov 15, 2020 04:50
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I did not mean to kill this interesting thread with a spicy take, my bad
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Nov 25, 2020 22:21
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tbh I think it's mostly that some people are more interested in declaring the movement dead than anything. There's not really anything to d&d at that point.
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Nov 25, 2020 22:32
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Yeah, I made this thread to not just be about the movement but rather issues the movement was touching upon, I could honestly care less how a hashtag is employed in the future by the usual disingenuous politics class, but I would like to know if there's thoughts on what can be done next.
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Nov 25, 2020 22:35
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The "disingenuous politics class" isn't on the forums and that hostility is why this is a dead thread.
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Nov 25, 2020 23:00
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Relevant Tangent posted:tbh I think it's mostly that some people are more interested in declaring the movement dead than anything. There's not really anything to d&d at that point. People are expressing a strongly held belief that I disagree with, drat these are no kind of conditions for a debate!!! What do you think is the best way for the movement to proceed from here?
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Nov 25, 2020 23:02
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What do you think would revive this thread, Relevant Tangent? In all sincerity.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:06
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Relevant Tangent posted:The "disingenuous politics class" isn't on the forums and that hostility is why this is a dead thread. It absolutely is, and I've got the avatar history to prove it- unless you'd like to define what you mean when you so aggressively declare that they're not on the forums. The movement isn't dead, it's just going to be facing genuine opposition from Democrats and Republicans at once, rather than having the tacit enemy of my enemy approval from the Dems it enjoyed during the Trump years.
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Nov 26, 2020 03:18
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Probably Magic posted:What do you think would revive this thread, Relevant Tangent? In all sincerity. Probably just letting it lie fallow until someone who is involved in the movement comes along and wants to talk about it. There seems to be hostility itt to #metoo, the idea that it's astroturfed. I don't know how else to describe the idea that there's a disingenuous politics class on SA.
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Nov 26, 2020 05:05
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Not so much astroturfed as betrayed. If it doesn't rise from the ashes, I'm sure it'll come back as something else. ACORN died but its members continue under new groups.
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Nov 26, 2020 05:46
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I really do think there's plenty to debate and discuss about the handling of molestation and the future of its handling. Perhaps this thread could be focusing on the "What Comes Next" part of the thread title more and on the "#metoo Movement" less.
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Nov 26, 2020 05:48
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Probably Magic posted:Perhaps this thread could be focusing on the "What Comes Next" part of the thread title more and on the "#metoo Movement" less. As a genuine question - how? Other than supporting victims when they come forward, even if their stories are being shut down and discredited by the political class, but in the absence of specific moments or accusations I'm not sure what to talk about here in this thread. Maybe talking about resources for advocacy or victim's groups, discussing the pros and cons of each group's approach, would be interesting? But that needs someone to come up with that information and present it to be discussed, I think. I'd absolutely love to read that, though, if anyone has the expertise to do so.
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Nov 26, 2020 06:08
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Relevant Tangent posted:Probably just letting it lie fallow until someone who is involved in the movement comes along and wants to talk about it. There seems to be hostility itt to #metoo, the idea that it's astroturfed. I don't know how else to describe the idea that there's a disingenuous politics class on SA. Can we stop using this phrase? I ask this because, like "deceptively," it can mean one of two completely opposing things depending on who is saying it and that meaning is not conveyed to the reader. You could mean people who pretend to support #metoo or people who pretend to oppose #metoo and you would be using exactly the same words to describe both groups.
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Nov 26, 2020 21:14
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I'm fine with that. Neither of those two groups post on SA.
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Nov 26, 2020 23:42
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Relevant Tangent posted:I'm fine with that. Neither of those two groups post on SA. There are plenty of folks who publicly and loudly pretend to support #metoo but, whenever someone they like is the focus, immediately start Just Asking Questions and looking for literally any excuse for why this time they don't need to believe the victims. I'm not talking about Biden, by the way; I'm talking about folks in the games industry and, more notably, secondary industries around the games industry like streamers, pro players, and critics.
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Nov 27, 2020 00:12
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Or, ya know, the case of the former owner of these forums...
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Nov 29, 2020 17:44
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Bump.
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Feb 4, 2021 20:38
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Consider posting an add for this thread in the stickied new thread thread
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Feb 5, 2021 00:17
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fool of sound posted:Consider posting an add for this thread in the stickied new thread thread Why? So your have something to redirect people to whenever your rape apologist friends in uspol get too close to revealing themselves? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 5, 2021 01:22
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Well that was quick
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Feb 5, 2021 01:31
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Banning discussion of a credible accusation of sexual assault against the sitting President in USPOL and shunting it to anther thread seems strange, but okay. Considering how the media alternated between character assassination and ignoring her there should be nothing wrong with Tara Reade publishing an article in RT, but I can only imagine people attacking the media forum while ignoring her message will get pretty bad. Nucleic Acids fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 02:36
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Yeah I'm thinking that #metoo is dead in america because Orange Man Gone now, there's no need for the powerful to pretend they care what happens to the expendable bodies, and the next man or woman to try and come out against someone who actually matters in this country is going to be found to have committed suicide in the trunk of a burned out car that was stolen on the other side of the country by shooting themselves twice in the back of the head.
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Feb 5, 2021 12:58
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Gulping Again posted:Yeah I'm thinking that #metoo is dead in america because Orange Man Gone now, there's no need for the powerful to pretend they care what happens to the expendable bodies, and the next man or woman to try and come out against someone who actually matters in this country is going to be found to have committed suicide in the trunk of a burned out car that was stolen on the other side of the country by shooting themselves twice in the back of the head. I don't know about #metoo being dead, but this thread certainly appears to be, and it's probably because of flippant posts like this one that add nothing substantive to the discussion. I'll be honest, I came in here wanting to gain more insight into the subject — I have several friends who are survivors and I want to better understand what they have gone through and how they deal with the trauma. But I read the last page up to your post, and the only things I saw were: a) some derail about Marx b) some poster insisting, like you did above, that #metoo is dead because it has been co-opted by rich white women, then continuing to argue that despite being shown evidence to the contrary c) more flippant poo poo about how people using the #metoo hashtag are the "disingenuous politics class" (this is coming from the OP, no less) d) some back and forth about how the thread can be revived e) a moderator suggesting that the OP advertise the thread in the sticky, and immediately getting attacked and being called a rape apologist I don't know what the solution is, but after seeing all that, my immediate urge was to  out of the thread.
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Feb 5, 2021 18:26
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Thorn Wishes Talon posted:I don't know about #metoo being dead, but this thread certainly appears to be, and it's probably because of flippant posts like this one that add nothing substantive to the discussion. I'll be honest, I came in here wanting to gain more insight into the subject — I have several friends who are survivors and I want to better understand what they have gone through and how they deal with the trauma. But I read the last page up to your post, and the only things I saw were: I checked out this thread a few months ago because #metoo has had a lasting impact in the corporate world and I thought it would be interesting to discuss as part of the larger issue. However, most of the posts then and now seem very invested in arguing that "#metoo is dead" and that's kind of a thought-terminating cliche for this particular thread so I didn't bother.
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Feb 5, 2021 19:48
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Gulping Again posted:Yeah I'm thinking that #metoo is dead in america because Orange Man Gone now, there's no need for the powerful to pretend they care what happens to the expendable bodies, and the next man or woman to try and come out against someone who actually matters in this country is going to be found to have committed suicide in the trunk of a burned out car that was stolen on the other side of the country by shooting themselves twice in the back of the head. Marilyn Manson was #metoo'd / is facing the consequences of his actions like a couple of days ago and he's been dropped from his record label and publicly disavowed by just about everybody already. I think #metoo isn't dead, but the effects of social movements like these are felt more over a longer period of time as they permeate the culture and normalize the change for kids growing up. e: sure, that's fair! vvvv
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Feb 5, 2021 20:11
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I feel like it's less useful to use #metoo as a verb and more useful to say "received consequences for his actions"
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Feb 5, 2021 20:12
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I appreciate the intent and the vulnerability that was brought to the OP, but it really might be helpful to have some stuff to really refer to and discuss. Like some articles that ground us. I think maybe a thread title change too since I think it unintentionally engenders some of the shittier rhetoric. Honestly, I think ignorance is a bit of an issue although I assume most people are in good faith. There is a lot to discuss like the longterm racist history of sexual assault allegations and how we reconcile that with creating a safe modern environment for victims, the impact of reforms in the workplace, how unionization can both stop and exasperate sexual harassment, reconciling girls feeling being respected without criminalizing children, how we teach consent, when do power dynamics override the possibility of reasonable consent in a relationship. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 20:32
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Timeless Appeal posted:I appreciate the intent and the vulnerability that was brought to the OP, but it really might be helpful to have some stuff to really refer to and discuss. Like some articles that ground us. I think maybe a thread title change too since I think it unintentionally engenders some of the shittier rhetoric. Honestly, I think ignorance is a bit of an issue although I assume most people are in good faith. Yeah, I definitely agree with you on changing the title thread, I thought referring to the hashtag would just be a quicker way to impart the topic of the thread than something bordering on glibness like, "The Sexual Assault Megathread," or the like, but if the conversation is going to be endlessly about the hashtag and its various proponents, that has kinda killed the thread in more ways than one. As for articles, I mean, I don't know where to start with that other than Liz Bruenig articles that are interesting reading but don't lead to much discussion other than, "Doesn't this suck." I was waiting for more people to show up with resources, but that... didn't pan out. Still, absolutely, if you have thoughts on that, share them. I admitted from the start I only have experience as a survivor and not really any kind of social worker experience, and I'd love to learn more. Thorn Wishes Talon posted:c) more flippant poo poo about how people using the #metoo hashtag are the "disingenuous politics class" (this is coming from the OP, no less) If you're going to throw around inflammatory remarks like that, don't post here. I was specifically saying I don't want the discussion to focus on how the topic could be co-opted, which one need only look at how Alex Morse was defamed in his senate race to see there is indeed disingenuous invocations of molestation, albeit ones that are quickly sniffed out because it is in fact hard to fake molestation claims. Rather than overtly focusing on whether that will happen again in the future (it will), I'm more interested, to be frank, in how we can keep things like Joe Biden going through the primaries largely unvetted on these claims from happening again because watching two accused rapists face off against each other in the general was one of the worst things I've ever had to live through as a political participant in America. It is 2021, surely we are better than this. But you wanted to know some more about what survivors are facing, and that seems like as good a point as any to re-kick off this thread. Here's the Bruenig article I was discussing. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2018/opinions/arlington-texas/
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Feb 5, 2021 22:53
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Another reason to rename this thread is talk of sexual assault is probably going to drift more to QAnon stuff with how six million people (with a good percentage of them women) believe in that stuff and how big of an issue sexual assault is in their belief system. Most articles I see explaining the appeal of QAnon typically downplay the seriousness of the sexual assault thought, and while QAnon is obviously full of poo poo, I think its appeal lies in the very real worries about sexual abuse in the wake of two decades of stories about Catholic church abuse, the Penn State scandal, and now Epstein. It's clear this is on people's conscious and is manifesting in this collective belief that the biggest threat facing America is children being kidnapped and turned into sex slaves. For a lot of people, that's fantasy, but I know some people who end up believing that stuff because their own assault experiences give them so much distrust of the system that they're now (excessively) willing to believe in predation around every corner and of course yearn for a strong man to save them. (Why that strong man is known predator Donald Trump is where it breaks down heavily, obviously.) Part of deprogramming people is going to take understanding the real concerns that hide behind their bullshit beliefs, so any articles about about the nexus between assault victims and QAnon would be interesting to see, but most articles I see just dissect how the conspiracy has spread through instagram and the like. It may be impossible to truly psychoanalyze the average Q person and find where their real concerns end and their fabricated concerns begin, but it still intrigues me as a research field.
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Feb 5, 2021 23:18
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Might be better to just reboot it from scratch if you want a thread like this around because some of the early pages stuff is pretty drat offputting Either way, pm me if you need the title changed or anything else Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Feb 5, 2021 |
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Feb 5, 2021 23:35
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Probably Magic posted:Part of deprogramming people is going to take understanding the real concerns that hide behind their bullshit beliefs, so any articles about about the nexus between assault victims and QAnon would be interesting to see, but most articles I see just dissect how the conspiracy has spread through instagram and the like. It may be impossible to truly psychoanalyze the average Q person and find where their real concerns end and their fabricated concerns begin, but it still intrigues me as a research field. If you want a thread for how to address QAnon's baseless poo poo and how to deprogram them you should add that to title so people know. Personally I don't think it can be done, they believe all that bullshit because 'democrats are all pedophiles' gives them an excuse to hate people they're already predisposed to hate
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Feb 5, 2021 23:57
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I think the real problem would also be that for most of QAnon, or any other conspiracy-minded person, it's not a real thing in their mind. For them, pedophilia and sexual assault is just kind of shorthand for "a really, evil thing." That's why they drift so freely from them into stuff like cannibalism, blood sacrifices, etc. And also why it's so easy to ignore the real life cases and coverups that they should be bothered by. They weren't done by a cackling Satanist. I would agree that there's a definite rise of sex trafficking fears in the collective consciousness. Except, not real sex trafficking, but movie sex trafficking with kidnappers and zip ties on doors. I'm not sure how you try to fix that or take advantage of it to push people in the right direction.
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Feb 6, 2021 00:13
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Some good responses, but long-term, I don't think this thread is going to work out. If someone else wants to post a thread on this topic, feel free.
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Feb 6, 2021 01:02
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