The #metoo Movement and What Comes Next

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The #metoo Movement and What Comes Next

Sharks Eat Bear: Dec 25, 2004

Ytlaya posted:

Believing that you're succeeding when you're not succeeding is not without a cost.

When powerful people start actually being held accountable for this stuff (in actual meaningful ways that aren't just a slap on the wrist), then we can claim that maybe some progress is being made. As is, it's like claiming that progress is being made on climate change because more people accept that climate change is real.

My personal view is that you can't separate something like this from the power that allows people like Weinstein, etc to do what they do. You have to address the power in order to address the abuse.

Crane Fist posted:

I mean let's be clear: what exactly has been achieved by self organization? The two guys to face actual consequences (weinstein and franken) did so because their crimes were basically undeniable and an easy chance for a bunch of political creeps to score some easy points. Without that institutional support the metoo movement is as good as dead, the whole situation being a result of a mass movement for all women getting sidetracked and turned into an exercise in media feminism and picking through the Hollywood barrel for bad apples

These are incredibly myopic ways of framing progress and achievement, and I think a lot of the discussion in recent posts rightly points out that accountability for powerful public figures is an excellent, but not EXCLUSIVE, marker of progress/achievement. It�s ironic that the first post I quoted is ostensibly a warning about unintended consequences of how a movement is framed, and yet the post itself doesn�t seem to consider the consequences of framing the progress of a social movement as being dependent on how it plays out among the elite, whether politicians or celebrities.

I honestly don�t understand how you can reconcile this type of thinking with a belief that electoralism is ineffective and grassroots activism/organization is a superior method for social change. Don�t get me wrong, I�m not at all saying �just vote� and Me Too will be revived, but if you don�t believe that the election of mainstream politicians is sufficient to achieve wide scale progressive goals then why would you say that a movement like Me Too is dead because of the failures of mainstream politicians? (Also I�m taking a very US centric view). If I�m putting words in anyone�s mouth then please call me out

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Sharks Eat Bear: Dec 25, 2004

Crane Fist posted:

What makes you think this, and do you believe that "accountability for powerful public figures" is something that has happened

No, to be clear I think that the accountability for public figures is still sorely lacking, with Trump and Biden being the big sore thumbs on the right and left hands of the US, so to speak. But inconsistent accountability for public figures does not mean that Me Too is a failure. The earlier poster sharing their experiences as a teacher and seeing how values are shifting among children is one example of clear progress among everyday people despite the failures among the elite.

quote:

It would be if the mainstream politicians being elected actually had progressive goals but they don't so you're working off a pretty shaky premise

I think maybe we are more in alignment than not? Agreed that most mainstream US pols don�t generally have legitimate progressive goals so much as a progressive veneer (if that), which I�m arguing is all the more reason to not let them define the success or failure of a grassroots movement.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2020 09:04

Sharks Eat Bear: Dec 25, 2004

The Oldest Man posted:

I've been making this point over in the American Progressivism thread to deaf ears,https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3947316

What is progressive? Is just saying "I see you, I hear you" to victims good enough for someone to get to brand themselves as progressive because at least that's better than regressive crypto-misogynism? Is recognizing victims not regressive crypto-misogynism with a new coat of paint if the abuser is allowed to go on with their life and the victim is not? There's really no way to know what is "Progressive" since it's an ideologically incoherent label, and it leaves well-intentioned people utterly adrift and completely fogged on whether a particular proposal (much less the sum of a platform's or person's positions and actions) should count as "progressive" or not.

I'd argue recognizing victims is a failure because recognition is subject to immediate memory-holing when the victim and victimizer are politically inconvenient, and that will always be the case. If a community is capable of recognizing abuse but incapable of ostracizing and marginalizing abusers (vs, say, electing them to high office and ostracizing and marginalizing their victims instead), it's endorsing the behavior. But there's no way to know whether even that position is progressive because again, there's no yardstick or ideological litmus test.

Hadn't seen that thread, I'll check it out.

I think I generally agree with what you're saying, but maybe we're talking past each other a bit? I'm not sure I'd go as far as saying that recognizing victims is an outright failure despite all the problems you describe, but for argument's sake I'll grant that. Quoting the relevant piece of my previous post:

Sharks Eat Bear posted:

But inconsistent accountability for public figures does not mean that Me Too is a failure. The earlier poster sharing their experiences as a teacher and seeing how values are shifting among children is one example of clear progress among everyday people despite the failures among the elite.

Admittedly, this is a harder type of success to measure (longitudinal opinion polls on attitudes toward things like consent, and ideally lower self reported rates of sexual abuse?) and, absent those measures, relies heavily on anecdotes and personal experiences. And even if those measures are available and do show encouraging trends, I recognize that it can't all be credited to Me Too as the sole or even primary cause.

But even with all these limitations, I still think it's important to recognize that a grassroots movement can be successful in shaping attitudes among regular people, and relying on my own anecdotes and personal experiences, I do think Me Too has been successful on that front.

# ¿ Nov 13, 2020 21:14

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