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Isn't it a thing in French public life that the personal lives of politicians are at least notionally off-limits as far as who the President or whoever else is involved with? I remember seeing something about Sarkozy years ago that essentially said "it would be a big deal here, but in France they don't give a poo poo about this kind of thing". Someone with Trump's marital history wouldn't raise an eyebrow over there whereas in the US there's a shitton of disingenuous moralizing regarding duration/number of marriages as well as scrutiny of the partner themselves. Macron's wife is less busted than I would guess based on age alone and she's older than Merkel, lol
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Nov 16, 2020 18:59
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Dreylad posted:with a relatively effective public healthcare system and welfare state, 35 hour work week and a politically mobilized population I really like the videos like the time Airline company upper management had to flee for their lives over a chainlink fence after announcing mass layoffs.
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Nov 16, 2020 20:08
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100YrsofAttitude posted:All my French friends give me poo poo about this, but how does no one bring up the fact that the president's teacher groomed him since he was a teen and eventually married him? This is just...the French way.
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Nov 16, 2020 21:11
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etalian posted:I really like the videos like the time Airline company upper management had to flee for their lives over a chainlink fence after announcing mass layoffs. the virgin CHAZ vs the Chad ZAD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_to_Defend French anarchists and other protestors have been occupying substantial chunks of land to protect farmland and the environment on and off for the last 30 years.
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Nov 16, 2020 21:45
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Isn't it a thing in French public life that the personal lives of politicians are at least notionally off-limits as far as who the President or whoever else is involved with? I remember seeing something about Sarkozy years ago that essentially said "it would be a big deal here, but in France they don't give a poo poo about this kind of thing". Someone with Trump's marital history wouldn't raise an eyebrow over there whereas in the US there's a shitton of disingenuous moralizing regarding duration/number of marriages as well as scrutiny of the partner themselves. Yeah pretty much. I don't know when the info came out but I'm pretty sure it was known at the time, but Mitterand, the president in the 80's, famously had a whole second family or something. And you know generally speaking they're right. A person's affairs or love life is their business, but rape is not cool, and DSK (Strasse-Kahn) got raked over the coals enough for that at least, and frankly a teacher dating and marrying their student personally grates me, being a teacher myself. It's hosed up. Algund Eenboom posted:The French invented multiple dishes that require brutal animal torture, and are proud of it I've personally only had foie gras and well... it is really good.
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Nov 16, 2020 22:04
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COMPAGNIE TOMMY posted:Isn't it a thing in French public life that the personal lives of politicians are at least notionally off-limits as far as who the President or whoever else is involved with? I remember seeing something about Sarkozy years ago that essentially said "it would be a big deal here, but in France they don't give a poo poo about this kind of thing". Someone with Trump's marital history wouldn't raise an eyebrow over there whereas in the US there's a shitton of disingenuous moralizing regarding duration/number of marriages as well as scrutiny of the partner themselves. Hollande's approval rating went up when it was revealed he was cheating on his wife
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Nov 16, 2020 22:20
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Algund Eenboom posted:Hollande's approval rating went up when it was revealed he was cheating on his wife That was one of my fav stories.
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Nov 16, 2020 22:22
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getting rid of moralism: good problem is, without an enduring revolutionary sentiment, made chauvinism pretty loving persistent
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Nov 16, 2020 22:24
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Dreylad posted:with a relatively effective public healthcare system and welfare state, 35 hour work week and a politically mobilized population france still has a revolutionary spirit even when their protestors are reactionary in nature like the gilets jaunes, at least they reject docility wheres my
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Nov 16, 2020 23:47
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gilets jaunes reactionary? I know there were a couple of isolated incidents but by and large they seemed if not explicitly left wing at least traveling in vaguely the same direction
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Nov 17, 2020 01:06
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i think there was a perception a lot of them were like this
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Nov 17, 2020 01:42
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eSports Chaebol posted:france still has a revolutionary spirit yes, the French aren't entirely awful but it's up to posters like you to actually show that it's true they're mostly reprehensible also I like the French language, I speak very little of it but it sounds nice not French Canadian though, that stings the cochleas
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Nov 17, 2020 01:44
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Nov 17, 2020 01:50
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 And his name is pepe... how deep does this go
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Nov 17, 2020 01:55
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Nov 17, 2020 03:37
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Toute la gloire à le crapaud de l'hypnose!
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Nov 17, 2020 04:29
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we startin on this here french bread for any particular reason or are some of us finally ready to acknowledge the gaul bastards for the colonial satans they are
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Nov 17, 2020 04:33
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france is why the us exists, the great grandaddy satan
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Nov 17, 2020 04:34
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one of my favorite lunches is a buckwheat crepe wrapped around a fried egg and gruyere
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Nov 17, 2020 04:36
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i want some ramekins for french onion soup
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Nov 17, 2020 04:38
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Nov 17, 2020 04:38
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Nov 17, 2020 04:51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQhNPOxHWyk
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Nov 17, 2020 04:55
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Doctor Jeep posted:gilets jaunes reactionary? I know there were a couple of isolated incidents but by and large they seemed if not explicitly left wing at least traveling in vaguely the same direction the gilets jaunes are largely uneducated, rural people who care a lot about cost of living issues. this means that they'll have some outright racists in their ranks but most importantly that their rhetoric will sound like that of the right because the right has been trying very hard to approach everyday language as a rhetorical style while the left has leaned heavily into jargoned inclusivity so they're reactionary in a sense, if one accepts that language is politics
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Nov 17, 2020 08:47
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I think most people who think the gilets juanes are reactionary are thinking about all the international copycats that popped up that WERE hella reactionary, honestly.
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Nov 17, 2020 09:22
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V. Illych L. posted:the gilets jaunes are largely uneducated, rural people who care a lot about cost of living issues. this means that they'll have some outright racists in their ranks but most importantly that their rhetoric will sound like that of the right because the right has been trying very hard to approach everyday language as a rhetorical style while the left has leaned heavily into jargoned inclusivity i was mostly being sarcastic but the reason i joke about it is that their grievances are real but it is (to my limited understanding at least) basically a lumpenproletariat uprising
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Nov 17, 2020 11:34
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eSports Chaebol posted:i was mostly being sarcastic but the reason i joke about it is that their grievances are real but it is (to my limited understanding at least) basically a lumpenproletariat uprising nah the gilets jaunes are pretty solidly working class if not outright proletarian, the triggering incident was a regressive fee on petrol, which is not something the lumpen get massively worked up about
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Nov 17, 2020 15:49
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eSports Chaebol posted:(to my limited understanding at least) basically a lumpenproletariat uprising this is one of those situations where theory messes up things The easiest way to start is that "lumpenproletariat" refers to the "bottom residue" (so to speak) of the underclass generated by capitalist activity: beggars and criminals, basically. It starts going downhill pretty quickly after that Like, prostitutes would be considered lumpen, but they were organized and were rather important in places like Petrograd and Barcelona. The homeless? Nowadays you have homeless workers' leagues and movements around the world. "Oh, but we mean the voluntary homeless, not the unwilling". poo poo, many of the voluntary homeless are mentally ill people, are they really parasites? though the poor who scabs or robs their fellow poor is imho a pretty straightforward example of who is lumpen nowadays
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Nov 17, 2020 17:06
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V. Illych L. posted:nah the gilets jaunes are pretty solidly working class if not outright proletarian, the triggering incident was a regressive fee on petrol, which is not something the lumpen get massively worked up about I believe part of the issue is the fuel tax was levied instead of a corporate carbon tax- the yellow vests are predominantly blue collar workers who either drive daily to work or drive as their actual job. Americans would probably balk at the standard price of fuel in Europe as it is, and the same thing is happening there with regards to wage stagnation, austerity, and neoliberal "reform"- so any increase, especially a "sin" tax (which is essentially what it is given the people paying it don't have an alternative to go greener), is very noticeable, particularly if the decision is being moralized while at the same time ignoring the companies that should pay (like Total). The Canadian yellow vest protests were funny because the gilet jaune itself is something those drivers are mandated to have in their vehicle, so it was a built-in symbol for them that was accessible and unifying. That law doesn't exist in Canada so everyone wearing one had to go out and buy one, lol.
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Nov 17, 2020 17:52
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dead gay comedy forums posted:The easiest way to start is that "lumpenproletariat" refers to the "bottom residue" (so to speak) of the underclass generated by capitalist activity: beggars and criminals, basically. It starts going downhill pretty quickly after that I'm intrigued to see various kinds of urban workers and marginalized peoples described as lumpen. I thought the origin of the phrase lumpenproletariat was 18th Brumaire and that it referred to rural peasants in France who were too atomized to come together as "a class for itself". i'll admit I get this understanding via one of Matt Christman's coked up podcast rants rather than having read the relevant Marxist tracts myself, but i'm curious (and you seem well read): does Marx discuss urban lumpenproletarians or is that something from more recent literature?
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Nov 17, 2020 17:54
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dead gay comedy forums posted:this is one of those situations where theory messes up things This. As much as class still exists, the concept of class is pretty much relegated to academia at this point. Proletariat, lumpenproletariat, bourgeois and petit bourgeois do not conceive of themselves as such. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed millionaire, who is waiting for luck to change their circumstance, working hard, or otherwise devising some way in their mind to not be what they are right now. Nobody wants to identify as a lumpenprole, because psychologically that acknowledgement is more damaging than the fantasy of upward mobility. That's why despite the fact the US has basically a permanent underclass of overworked and impoverished people they've never risen up, and never will.
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Nov 17, 2020 17:56
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Nov 17, 2020 17:59
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Spazmo posted:I'm intrigued to see various kinds of urban workers and marginalized peoples described as lumpen. I thought the origin of the phrase lumpenproletariat was 18th Brumaire and that it referred to rural peasants in France who were too atomized to come together as "a class for itself". i'll admit I get this understanding via one of Matt Christman's coked up podcast rants rather than having read the relevant Marxist tracts myself, but i'm curious (and you seem well read): does Marx discuss urban lumpenproletarians or is that something from more recent literature? This is what 18th Brumaire says: "Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, maquereaux [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars — in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call la bohème; from this kindred element Bonaparte formed the core of the Society of December 10. A "benevolent society" - insofar as, like Bonaparte, all its members felt the need of benefiting themselves at the expense of the laboring nation. This Bonaparte, who constitutes himself chief of the lumpenproletariat, who here alone rediscovers in mass form the interests which he personally pursues, who recognizes in this scum, offal, refuse of all classes the only class upon which he can base himself unconditionally, is the real Bonaparte, the Bonaparte sans phrase."
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Nov 17, 2020 18:19
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uncop posted:This is what 18th Brumaire says: "Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, maquereaux [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars — in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call la bohème; from this kindred element Bonaparte formed the core of the Society of December 10. A "benevolent society" - insofar as, like Bonaparte, all its members felt the need of benefiting themselves at the expense of the laboring nation. This Bonaparte, who constitutes himself chief of the lumpenproletariat, who here alone rediscovers in mass form the interests which he personally pursues, who recognizes in this scum, offal, refuse of all classes the only class upon which he can base himself unconditionally, is the real Bonaparte, the Bonaparte sans phrase." Thanks, this is really illuminating, and I appreciate the citation
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Nov 17, 2020 18:28
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uncop posted:This is what 18th Brumaire says: "Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, maquereaux [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars — in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call la bohème; from this kindred element Bonaparte formed the core of the Society of December 10. A "benevolent society" - insofar as, like Bonaparte, all its members felt the need of benefiting themselves at the expense of the laboring nation. This Bonaparte, who constitutes himself chief of the lumpenproletariat, who here alone rediscovers in mass form the interests which he personally pursues, who recognizes in this scum, offal, refuse of all classes the only class upon which he can base himself unconditionally, is the real Bonaparte, the Bonaparte sans phrase."
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Nov 17, 2020 18:49
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Spazmo posted:I'm intrigued to see various kinds of urban workers and marginalized peoples described as lumpen. I thought the origin of the phrase lumpenproletariat was 18th Brumaire and that it referred to rural peasants in France who were too atomized to come together as "a class for itself". i'll admit I get this understanding via one of Matt Christman's coked up podcast rants rather than having read the relevant Marxist tracts myself, but i'm curious (and you seem well read): does Marx discuss urban lumpenproletarians or is that something from more recent literature? thank you, while I appreciate your consideration, I am not exactly "well read", I am just an interested person who tries to contextualize what I know of theory to help along others build a worldview of solidarity. For specifics of Marxist analysis, uncop is an excellent poster and can elaborate much better than I in that sense  in this subject, I really disagree with Marx because the implication from the way he writes is that, imho, the incapacity to reach class consciousness there is something akin to a moral fault; this is a complicated mess because it is part of the basis of a "left moralism" that ultimately ends with sex workers not being workers, or certain artistic professions being not real labor, or criminals not being product of material circumstances; however, Marx was still a man of his time and wrote like one, so that judgment is to be expected, I just don't think it is right to extrapolate that to our time
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Nov 17, 2020 19:34
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Nov 17, 2020 19:46
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dead gay comedy forums posted:Marx was still a man of his time and wrote like one, so that judgment is to be expected, I just don't think it is right to extrapolate that to our time The identity lines that people group themselves along are not an omission by Marx- rather, those differences are emphasized expressly to prevent those disparate groups from realizing what they have in common. They are not even a substitute for class, just a different expression of it- because whether you are gay, a person of color, etc., to say class doesn't apply to those struggles is ridiculous because those very identities are what the main social mass uses to define you as and keep you in a lower class of citizenry. Identity politics is a great way to create 'marginalized groups', because by virtue of their labor alienation they are already marginalized, and the problem gets to be redefined in a way that it can never be solved.
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Nov 17, 2020 19:47
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Nov 17, 2020 19:51
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This thread was just an excuse for GA to post frogs and that owns
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Nov 17, 2020 20:22
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