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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cFSWxzXXOo NOT ALL FRENCHMEN
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Nov 17, 2020 20:52
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dead gay comedy forums posted:in this subject, I really disagree with Marx because the implication from the way he writes is that, imho, the incapacity to reach class consciousness there is something akin to a moral fault; this is a complicated mess because it is part of the basis of a "left moralism" that ultimately ends with sex workers not being workers, or certain artistic professions being not real labor, or criminals not being product of material circumstances; however, Marx was still a man of his time and wrote like one, so that judgment is to be expected, I just don't think it is right to extrapolate that to our time I agree. I think Marx's analysis there was informed by how stunned he was by the results of the election in France (see, this is totally relevant to the thread), similarly to how the American (international, really) pundit class were so shocked by Trump's 2016 victory that they reached for all sorts of theories ranging from conspiracies to something akin to the left moralism you sketch out. By this I mean the analysis whose explanation for people voting for Trump is racism or some other personal moral failing on the part of the voter.
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Nov 17, 2020 21:24
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dead gay comedy forums posted:thank you, while I appreciate your consideration, I am not exactly "well read", I am just an interested person who tries to contextualize what I know of theory to help along others build a worldview of solidarity. For specifics of Marxist analysis, uncop is an excellent poster and can elaborate much better than I in that sense Marx has an edgelordy aesthetic to his writings sometimes, but he doesn't let it compromise the content, he just trusts the reader a lot with interpretation. If you want to read the "scum", "refuse" etc. in a non-condemnatory way, the idea is that the lumpenproletariat is composed of a variety of people who productive society has pushed out for one reason or another. Stolen land, failed business, being a flunked out failson, being a runaway or an orphan, disability, receiving a long prison sentence, dead profession or class, long term mass unemployment... Society itself has morally condemned everyone it has abandoned, because it has to condemn them in order to be able to abandon them; otherwise it'd have to condemn itself. There's no lumpen essence to subsisting on art, for instance, but a person who engages in artwork to make some loose change while not having a socially legitimate source of income is lumpen: abandoned to scrape together whatever living they can within the informal economy. That kind of existence is not like having a job or doing independent work, most of their work isn't socially considered to be work at all. And Marx engages in the opposite of moralism: he just takes this real judgement that society has cast and examines it as is. What would be actually moralistic is to claim that it *should* be considered work and paid as such, so Marx was wrong because he didn't recognize this moral aspect to reality that would have been necessary to produce a correct analysis.
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Nov 17, 2020 21:57
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Nov 17, 2020 22:14
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You realize "frogs" is bigoted language against the French, right? And you know bigotry is frowned upon in CineD, right? User loses posting privileges for 1 day.
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Nov 18, 2020 21:43
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Nov 18, 2020 22:14
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really queer Christmas posted:You realize "frogs" is bigoted language against the French, right? And you know bigotry is frowned upon in CineD, right? User loses posting privileges for 1 day. 
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Nov 18, 2020 23:34
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uncop posted:Society itself has morally condemned everyone it has abandoned, because it has to condemn them in order to be able to abandon them; otherwise it'd have to condemn itself.
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Nov 19, 2020 00:02
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Reading blood meridian and noticed one of the characters refers to the french as "toadeaters." Felt it was worth discussing
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Nov 19, 2020 00:19
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Algund Eenboom posted:Reading blood meridian and noticed one of the characters refers to the french as "toadeaters." Felt it was worth discussing
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Nov 19, 2020 00:40
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Nov 19, 2020 00:57
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uncop posted:This is what 18th Brumaire says: "Alongside decayed roués with dubious means of subsistence and of dubious origin, alongside ruined and adventurous offshoots of the bourgeoisie, were vagabonds, discharged soldiers, discharged jailbirds, escaped galley slaves, swindlers, mountebanks, lazzaroni, pickpockets, tricksters, gamblers, maquereaux [pimps], brothel keepers, porters, literati, organ grinders, ragpickers, knife grinders, tinkers, beggars — in short, the whole indefinite, disintegrated mass, thrown hither and thither, which the French call la bohème; from this kindred element Bonaparte formed the core of the Society of December 10. A "benevolent society" - insofar as, like Bonaparte, all its members felt the need of benefiting themselves at the expense of the laboring nation. This Bonaparte, who constitutes himself chief of the lumpenproletariat, who here alone rediscovers in mass form the interests which he personally pursues, who recognizes in this scum, offal, refuse of all classes the only class upon which he can base himself unconditionally, is the real Bonaparte, the Bonaparte sans phrase." Was this the base of Boulanger as well? And would Boulanger be classified as a protofascist? Apparently his base of support was mainly old communards so to me he seems loosely analagous to Trump.
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Nov 19, 2020 04:22
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https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1329486913561120768
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Nov 20, 2020 01:12
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scratchaliberal
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Nov 20, 2020 01:13
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Good to see Generic French Fascist #47 has his priorities in order instead of dealing with his 20-30k/day COVID-19 count.  comedyblissoption posted:scratchaliberal He does admire Petain, after all.
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Nov 20, 2020 01:22
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Nov 20, 2020 01:29
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really queer Christmas posted:You realize "frogs" is bigoted language against the French, right? And you know bigotry is frowned upon in CineD, right? User loses posting privileges for 1 day. we must at least have the decency to refer to them as grenouilles
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Nov 20, 2020 01:53
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Nov 20, 2020 02:08
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him name is hopkin green fr*g
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Nov 20, 2020 02:11
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https://twitter.com/France24_en/status/1328720298573664256?s=20 also France still keeps up a military presence in their "former" African colonies https://twitter.com/franceonu/status/1327553862559952898?s=20
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Nov 20, 2020 02:37
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Melenchon '22?
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Nov 20, 2020 06:25
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This is the most racist thread I've ever seen. We all need to educate ourselves, put in the work, and do better
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Nov 20, 2020 07:03
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Nov 20, 2020 07:26
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Lol
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Nov 20, 2020 07:44
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I am tempted to quote the great Leonard Crabs: ‘I am guided by the beauty of our moderators.'
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Nov 20, 2020 07:48
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Nov 20, 2020 07:57
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remember when every liberal freak in america touted his victory as a shining beacon of hope for democracy      oh well!
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Nov 20, 2020 08:01
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What the gently caress?
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Nov 20, 2020 10:46
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Algund Eenboom posted:What the gently caress? He was married to a pakistani man for a while
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Nov 20, 2020 11:08
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In my expert opinion, gently caress France, the French and Macron.
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Nov 20, 2020 11:47
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comedyblissoption posted:scratchaliberal neoliberal president does authoritarian thing, "today he became a leader"
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Nov 20, 2020 15:57
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Nov 20, 2020 17:51
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Atrocious Joe posted:https://twitter.com/France24_en/status/1328720298573664256?s=20 Hire 👏 more 👏 women 👏 frogs 👏
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Nov 20, 2020 17:53
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i bet zizek loves this
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Nov 20, 2020 18:14
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sick
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Nov 20, 2020 18:33
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Nov 20, 2020 18:34
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gDwXcLaNo
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Nov 20, 2020 18:35
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Mia Wasikowska posted:i bet zizek loves this Is zizek really an Islamophobe?
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Nov 20, 2020 18:49
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Nov 20, 2020 19:56
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This just passed overwhelming in the French Senate. 146 to 24. 1 year in prison and €45,000 for the "malicious dissemination of the image of the police." including "the image of the face or any other element of identification" of a police officer/gendarme that would “undermine his physical or mental integrity”.
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Nov 20, 2020 19:57
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