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DrSunshine posted:I mean, if you have any better ideas, I'm all ears! Here's one; don't poo poo on localism and ground-level organizing as being some kind of dead end. It's quite literally saving people's lives right now and if anything is ever going to get better, the movement to force those changes is going to originate in those activities and formations that right now are out trying to keep homeless folks from freezing to death and such. And if it fails to bring about revolutionary change in society, I guess we'll have helped our neighbors survive for no reason at all.
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Nov 26, 2020 08:11
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The Oldest Man posted:Here's one; don't poo poo on localism and ground-level organizing as being some kind of dead end. It's quite literally saving people's lives right now and if anything is ever going to get better, the movement to force those changes is going to originate in those activities and formations that right now are out trying to keep homeless folks from freezing to death and such. I'm not making GBS threads on it!! It's good, it is necessary, it gets people talking and organized. But the point is it cannot be the be-all, end-all. Ground-level organizing and localism is not going to bring about society-wide change from the bottom up. The way it is being done now, the best it could possibly do is precisely that - immediate assistance to those in need right now, and the temporary creation of a bunker or a little island against the tides of a greater capitalist society that is free to simply flow around it. It does not threaten capitalism, it depends on capitalism.
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Nov 26, 2020 16:18
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The Oldest Man posted:Here's one; don't poo poo on localism and ground-level organizing as being some kind of dead end. It's quite literally saving people's lives right now and if anything is ever going to get better, the movement to force those changes is going to originate in those activities and formations that right now are out trying to keep homeless folks from freezing to death and such. I'm at the opposite end of this. Localism is the answer BUT even the side that believes in it doesn't use it anywhere near to it's full potential. Bernie Sanders had 100 million dollars. Instead of using that on ads that say "Look how nice we are" he should have just hired people to just do general help stuff in various constituencies while also using that time to sign people to vote and then when the voting happens make sure they do too by driving them to the polls or waiting in a line for them if required. And to throw a huge party with free drinks and food for those who voted afterwards (well maybe not during corona). What happened to the Democratic machines? Leftist organizing? There used to be a guy on every block who knew everyone there and their mother by name and face, and who would rally the unsatisfied to vote for a set name in masses without much more then the promise of free alcohol in the local establishment for a night or two and their neighborhood getting few minor improvements. Do that, but with modern day twists. And without maybe spending two thirds on the money on corrupt local officials and business interests this time. Or at least you know, less of the money. The system is corrupt already for the rich, so who cares if it is seen as bribing people for votes? gently caress, say that you are literally bribing people for votes like corporations are literally bribing senators for their votes, what is the problem in bribing Regular American Folks (tm) and enjoy the free media the controversy will create. For full effect, and what past machines did not lack, this needs to be combined with a media network feeding the people with fear and hate for their enemies. And don't tell me that there isn't enough money to hire a dozen good-looking good-speakers to poo poo on rural Trump supporters 24/7 and how they are using YOUR blue state tax money to sustain THEIR red state lifestyles while trying to take away YOUR blue state rights and supplant them with THEIR red state values that people can watch on their public transport as a right-wing talk radio equivalent. Trump needed zero ad buys to bring out his message in 2016 because if you didn't love it, you would hate and fear it. His enemies spread the message as warning, his lovers as hope, and everyone heard it. Do that, but with the target being people who actually deserve it. Since that includes the owners of the networks they will NOT SHUT UP about the socialist who wants to line them up against the wall. Don't say "Well actually I am a Social Democrat following the principles of the Nordic Model which..." Say "Yeah, I am a socialist and I will stitch together a red flag out of your red hats that will fly over the ceremonies of the PEOPLE getting your MONEY." Practice what you preach locally by college students being hired to bring groceries to old grandmas on a 15$ minimum wage, and the foreign media at least will show what is up and force the domestic to do the same if they want to stay relevant on what is hot for their global audience. But those are crazy things for a political figure to say? Are they though? All you are asking is the same things rest of the developed world has. And those things have a pretty good success rate in materially deprived societies. And well, it isn't any crazier the things Trump and his supporters say, so that glass ceiling was shattered by a huge rocket thousand miles upwards and you have a long way to reach the shards floating in space. Instead year after year we get "Hey please vote for me because I will make your lives better, oh God please just for once vote, it would take one vote, I know there are enough of you materially suffering people how are you not seeing what a disaster everything is and are ambivalent" and it works just as well every time. The money can clearly be gathered. The perfect enemy exists. The model for both political local machines and whipping up.anger and fear has been given and is actually being employed by the GOP in every election to great effect in a rural fashion through preachers, sheriffs, town leaders and local officials who know the voters in whatever podunk village they live in BY NAME and what motivates them. If any of these methods are controversial, all that will bring is free publicity when the figurehead says things that make the other side mad. All that is missing is will. Some of the deprivation in U.S. starts to be pretty loving serious. Not "Russian Empire on its last legs" serious, but serious enough to motivate at least a Lenin-lite. Yet I am not seeing any. I'm not even seeing a homegrown Tammany Hall-esque local operation, just hoping people will vote if you tell them how much better things will be instead of making things a little bit better through the money you already have to get access to the big bank. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_machine EDITed for less messiness but it is basically a rant about how the American Left fails to fight fire with fire every time. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Nov 26, 2020 |
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Nov 26, 2020 17:26
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DrSunshine posted:I'm not making GBS threads on it!! It's good, it is necessary, it gets people talking and organized. But the point is it cannot be the be-all, end-all. Ground-level organizing and localism is not going to bring about society-wide change from the bottom up. The way it is being done now, the best it could possibly do is precisely that - immediate assistance to those in need right now, and the temporary creation of a bunker or a little island against the tides of a greater capitalist society that is free to simply flow around it. It does not threaten capitalism, it depends on capitalism. Several of the mutual aid groups I support are explicitly about threatening capitalism, but you don't threaten capitalism anymore by Doing a Vanguardism that immediately gets either co-opted by the Democrats or the organizers end up in a mysterious two rounds to the back of the head and car set on fire suicide situation. The ways of the past don't work in our current circumstances. Swarming tactics are the only way forward in my opinion.
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Nov 26, 2020 20:12
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That's not a bad analysis in the OP. I think that what's left of the Western far left has painted itself into a corner, and it's just the logical result of Lenin and others developing their definition of imperialism and basically applying class analysis to the relationship between countries, where the West is the exploitative bourgeoisie of the globe. If you are a member of the (especially native) working class in a Western country, why would you ever vote communist? Being part of the global bourgeoisie, wouldn't it be in my material interest to maintain the exploitative North-South relationship, even if my boss exploits me in turn? Worse still, Western communists (especially since the rise of the New Left in the 60's) are perceived as being useless, effeminate college students who use big words, and also love to burn the flag and hug trees. The nation-state is the one collective project that many, especially among the working class, already naturally adhere to, and here you have these privileged upper middle class fucks disrespecting that and calling themselves post-nationalist cosmopolitans or whatever bullshit - whereas virtually all of the historical communist governments used nationalism or at least patriotism to bolster their legitimacy. In summary, the problem for the far left is mostly just that they completely fail to communicate that they're the only ones promoting the interests of the lower classes, the way lower-class people themselves define those interests. I would say that that attitude is most 'eloquently' expressed when you listen to working-class Oi! bands from early 80's Britain, during a period of major economic decline which you think would have been favorable to the left (but which in fact led to the election of Thatcher). Somebody fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 27, 2020 16:55
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Phlegmish posted:That's not a bad analysis in the OP. I think that what's left of the Western far left has painted itself into a corner, and it's just the logical result of Lenin and others developing their definition of imperialism and basically applying class analysis to the relationship between countries, where the West is the exploitative bourgeoisie of the globe. If you are a member of the (especially native) working class in a Western country, why would you ever vote communist? Being part of the global bourgeoisie, wouldn't it be in my material interest to maintain the exploitative North-South relationship, even if my boss exploits me in turn? I think you are conflating third world Maoism bit too much with standard Leninism in your first paragraph, when they are historically very seperate narratives. Lenin's analysis about imperialism wasn't about a fundamental north/south relationship between the world's working class, but that exploitation based on class overall was the core issue. It is why a robust left-wing continued (often now connected to the Soviet Union) continued after 1917 and well into the 1960s. It wasn't really the "logical result" but arguing in opposition to Leninist theory. What you call the "new left" is really about the shift to Eurocommunism and the general split of the far-left away from the Soviets and its eventual moderation and irrelevance, especially from the 1980s onward. The center-left also moderated even further (without a strong left-wing flank) and this is when you get "social-democrats" suddenly pushing center-right policy (New Labour) and largely being dominated by the upper-middle-class intelligentsia. In the end, it boiled down to the Soviet Union and the weaker its influence on the left in the West, became the more it turned to the relative economic right with a far greater emphasis on social issues. It is also why the Western working class increasingly became alienated in the first place and increasingly shifted to right-populism. That said, in my opinion, leftism itself didn't change but merely died out and the political spectrum in the West was dominated by parties that stretched from the far-right all the way to the right-wing/center-right. ------------- Btw, Phlegmish, sorry but a portion of your post got cut off in a mishap. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Nov 28, 2020 |
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Nov 28, 2020 03:37
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