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Jobbo_Fett posted:You want air conditioning? You open whatever vent the designers gave you, or the cockpit window, or the cockpit entirely. Also thanks to the Seafire having not been developed with the tropics in mind, hoses rotted and for a while they had a problem with petrol fumes in the cockpit. And when I say problems, I mean one vet died from it and it almost kills the author. He manages to land back on deck but doesn't remember doing it.
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Apr 9, 2024 04:58
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I know the b-29 had it because of the altitudes it was designed to fly at
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Apr 9, 2024 05:04
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My Granddad was a plankholder on the Midway, and a photographer. Said that the photo lab was one of the _very_ few spaces in the carrier that was airconditioned, so people were always bugging him for reasons to be in there. From that story, I'm guessing the bunks and galleys were not very effectively climate controlled on carriers even right post-war.
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Apr 9, 2024 05:06
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Nebakenezzer posted:Also thanks to the Seafire having not been developed with the tropics in mind, hoses rotted and for a while they had a problem with petrol fumes in the cockpit. And when I say problems, I mean one vet died from it and it almost kills the author. He manages to land back on deck but doesn't remember doing it. So the Seafire was just the Panther of the Sea...'s skies!
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Apr 9, 2024 05:19
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Nebakenezzer posted:The Seafire does not - nor does Implacable, the carrier he's flying from. So let me ask: air condition in World War 2. Do all American aircraft have it or is this mostly a USN thing? I know American subs had it, and I'm guessing some USN carriers had it; did any one else? Did the IJN? I had family in the Navy up until Vietnam and they would talk about how the bigger boats were nice because the food was usually better, but sleeping could be hard because it was muggy as hell. If there was AC it was either broke or wasn't enough for just sitting in the South China Sea.
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Apr 9, 2024 06:02
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Slo-Tek posted:My Granddad was a plankholder on the Midway, and a photographer. Said that the photo lab was one of the _very_ few spaces in the carrier that was airconditioned, so people were always bugging him for reasons to be in there. From that story, I'm guessing the bunks and galleys were not very effectively climate controlled on carriers even right post-war. I worked as a volunteer on the Midway a decade or so back and I can confirm that there were very few spaces with air conditioning.
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Apr 9, 2024 06:07
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Xiahou Dun posted:I’m gonna put all my money on the Imperial Japanese anything did not give a ghost of a dry fart about crew comfort on anything. You'll be wrong on that one. part of the reason the Japanese carriers went up in flames and were so impossible to extinguish was that the flooring inside the ship had a wooden layer on top, with a little bit of space under the wood for the crew to store personal effects and such. I Don't remember the rest of the details, but they must count for just a little bit since it was brought up in Shattered Sword.
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Apr 9, 2024 07:39
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SerthVarnee posted:part of the reason the Japanese carriers went up in flames and were so impossible to extinguish was that the flooring inside the ship had a wooden layer on top, with a little bit of space under the wood for the crew to store personal effects and such. I mean there were lots of other reasons too.
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Apr 9, 2024 08:10
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Nebakenezzer posted:So I've been reading "So they gave me a Seafire" by Mike R. Crosley. It's a quite good account of life with the FAA (RN Fleet Air Arm) during WW2. I came across something that is in retrospect obvious, but kinda blew my mind none the less. Crosley gets to fly a USN Corsair at one point (this being at Manus in 1945) and the thing has air conditioning. At the risk of appearing to know better than a primary source...I am extremely sceptical that the Corsair - or any other WW2 fighter - had actual air conditioning. A/C units of the time were heavy, bulky and gloriously inefficient. This is what car-fitted A/C looked like in the 1930s:  It needed its own independent gasoline engine to power it. I can't see even the Americans adding something that added weight and sapped engine power purely for crew comfort. Especially not for pilots when 300mph of chilled mid-altitude air was available right outside the cockpit for free. As mentioned, the famous air conditioning on submarines was primarily there to protect the electrics, and because the hellish conditions on the 'Pig Boats' had a provable impact on crew endurance and performance. I absolutely can believe that the Corsair had superior cockpit ventilation than the Seafire - even in UK conditions the Spitfire cockpit was infamously hot when down low and teeth-shatteringly cold when up high. While most American fighters (right back to the Wildcat and Tomahawk) had cockpit heaters. Of course pressurisation essentially requires air conditioning (filtering and drying the air) as part of the process, so stuff like the B-29 and the later PR Spitfire variants had it. It might be a terminology issue: in Britain at least 'air conditioning' was a term often used to simply mean 'temperature controlled forced air''. In the late 1930s the Flying Scotsman train boasted 'air conditioned' coaches and what they meant was that ducts at foot and roof level provided fan-driven airflow that automatically blended cool (ambient) or heated air drawn from the outside to maintain a set temperature. Cars in the 1940s/1950s would trumpet 'air conditioning' and that similarly just meant they had a system that drew fresh air from outside and used a fan to blow it through vents, at a temperature set by the driver. As opposed to what British cars usually had at the time which was opening windows/screens for cooling and either no heater at all or a 'fug stirrer' unit that just recirculated air around the cabin via a heating coil. I would put money on the Corsair actually having a very good forced-vent system using ram-air off the propeller, capable of providing a breeze to the pilot while on the deck waiting for takeoff. Probably with a single control lever/dial where you set a desired temperature. And that's what impressed Crosley.
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Apr 9, 2024 11:52
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Yeah according to this forum post air conditioning only came in with the P80. https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/p-47-with-air-conditioning.49012/ In terms of Japanese pilot comfort they had electrically heated under suits. https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/suit-flying-electrically-heated-japanese-army-air-force/nasm_A19771109000 In terms of the Spitfire remember that the British planes were originally intended to fly quite short interception missions. This is quite different from long range carrier aircraft. Fangz fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 11:53
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Would you actually need AC in a plane, just like a tiny vent you open when cruising at high altitudes?
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Apr 9, 2024 14:45
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Defenestrategy posted:Would you actually need AC in a plane, just like a tiny vent you open when cruising at high altitudes? You don't need the AC at altitude, the same way that if you live in the Northeast you don't need your AC in December. Now, when you're down around 1000 feet in the tropics and you're sitting right behind a big 'ol engine that's churning out a buttload of heat itself? Yeah, some AC would be nice then.
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Apr 9, 2024 14:53
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BalloonFish posted:I would put money on the Corsair actually having a very good forced-vent system using ram-air off the propeller, capable of providing a breeze to the pilot while on the deck waiting for takeoff. Probably with a single control lever/dial where you set a desired temperature. And that's what impressed Crosley. Ah! Thank you mr. Fish, that does make sense.
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Apr 9, 2024 17:01
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The Lone Badger posted:I mean there were lots of other reasons too. There were a couple of details that attributed, yes. But the main point is that the carriers were sunk due to excessive amounts of resources spent on crew comfort. Possibly.
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Apr 9, 2024 17:15
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Slo-Tek posted:My Granddad was a plankholder on the Midway, and a photographer. Said that the photo lab was one of the _very_ few spaces in the carrier that was airconditioned, so people were always bugging him for reasons to be in there. From that story, I'm guessing the bunks and galleys were not very effectively climate controlled on carriers even right post-war. Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors describes how the bunks were so uncomfortable in the tropics, a lot of sailors slept in hammocks on the deck instead. One guy slung his hammock near the edge of the ship, so that whenever the ship turned, the hammock swung out over the ocean.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:18
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SerthVarnee posted:But the main point is that the carriers were sunk due to excessive amounts of resources spent on crew comfort. I doubt that wood was chosen for comfort. Wood is cheaper and easier to work than steel; Japanese ships were pretty spartan.
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Apr 9, 2024 18:58
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Chamale posted:Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors describes how the bunks were so uncomfortable in the tropics, a lot of sailors slept in hammocks on the deck instead. One guy slung his hammock near the edge of the ship, so that whenever the ship turned, the hammock swung out over the ocean. Can confirm, sailing a metal-hulled boat in the tropics with no effective air conditioning is absolutely disgusting. There’s almost no point showering because you’ll start sweating again the moment you get out and begin toweling off, and you can strip down to your skivvies without a blanket on and still end up soaking the mattress and the pillows in sweat within minutes. The smell is not to be spoken of. I imagine the effect is even worse in a crowded military berth just from pure combined body heat.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:23
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Tomn posted:Can confirm, sailing a metal-hulled boat in the tropics with no effective air conditioning is absolutely disgusting. There’s almost no point showering because you’ll start sweating again the moment you get out and begin toweling off, and you can strip down to your skivvies without a blanket on and still end up soaking the mattress and the pillows in sweat within minutes. The smell is not to be spoken of. I imagine the effect is even worse in a crowded military berth just from pure combined body heat. Is wood (or other more exciting materials, I guess) any better or is the whole sitch so awful it kind of just plateaus? I’ve never been in that kind of boat, very much on purpose, but I have lived in the tropics and it loving sucks. If I didn’t have to go somewhere, I’d just take constant cold showers throughout the day. Every 30 min-an hour I’d just walk right into the shower, not even bothering to stop drinking a beer and stand under the cool water for 5 minutes.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:30
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lee kuan yew, who was vaguely-elected president of the signature managed democracy, singapore, for 30 years, said that air conditioning was basically why they got to be rich https://www.vox.com/2015/3/23/8278085/singapore-lee-kuan-yew-air-conditioning
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Apr 9, 2024 19:39
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Robert Facepalmer posted:IJN did not give a shiiiiiiiiiiit about crew comfort This just isn't true. Read about the ramune production facility aboard the Yamato, for example. https://www.sankei.com/article/20210503-5AKW52POUNNRLJBU6DOSDLZ6TI/ Wartime desperation started cutting down on these frills, but the japanese recognised that morale is important too. You can't keep crews happy with bushido alone. Also as people have suggested, the Japanese use of hammocks was probably more comfortable than US bunks, but created fire and space problems. Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 19:45
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Fangz posted:This just isn't true. Read about the ramune production facility aboard the Yamato, for example. I remember in the book Allegedly about Saburo Sakai he had bottles of cola in the cockpit and one time he accidentally opened one at a terrible attitude for it and it ended up pasting a layer of sticky soda over his goggles. It was a remarkable detail for me as a kid because "Huh they had soda back then" and "Huh Japan had soda" and "Huh, Japan gave its soldiers soda" were all crossing my mind at the same time.
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Apr 9, 2024 19:53
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Cessna posted:I doubt that wood was chosen for comfort. Wood is cheaper and easier to work than steel; Japanese ships were pretty spartan. The Battleship New Jersey museum channel had a video up that backs up the point of comfort. IIRC, wood has very important insulation properties. They had a part of the ship that had the wooden deck panelling removed, and the result is that the places under that would consistently be uncomfortably hot in summer, and uncomfortably cold in winter. In turn the wood has to be scraped and cleaned near-constantly, but it's worth it. Here we go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH6_RIHAoA4
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Apr 9, 2024 20:06
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What is modern warship decking like?
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Apr 9, 2024 20:17
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Xiahou Dun posted:Is wood (or other more exciting materials, I guess) any better or is the whole sitch so awful it kind of just plateaus? I’m not actually sure myself, I’ve not actually sailed that many wooden ships and none in the tropics. However, what I can say is that steel hulls basically conduct all temperatures so that you boil or freeze depending on conditions outside. A wooden hull seems to act as an insulator and while being in cold areas still isn’t exactly fun it’s more bearable than a steel equivalent. Not sure if this works for or against wooden hills in the tropics, though maintaining a wooden hull in the tropics is I know a minor nightmare.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:29
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Fangz posted:The Battleship New Jersey museum channel had a video up that backs up the point of comfort. IIRC, wood has very important insulation properties. They had a part of the ship that had the wooden deck panelling removed, and the result is that the places under that would consistently be uncomfortably hot in summer, and uncomfortably cold in winter. In turn the wood has to be scraped and cleaned near-constantly, but it's worth it. This is surprising. My experience was on modern ships like LPDs which have very little wood - pretty much the only wood you'll see on a ship is some sort of plaque with the old CO's name on it. When I worked on the WWII sub there was also very little wood, maybe a desk or two but that's it. zoux posted:What is modern warship decking like? Exterior, it's steel covered with a horrible non-skid substance that looks like dried tar. Interior, lovely linoleum when I was in, which has been mostly replaced with a blue epoxy coating.
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Apr 9, 2024 20:33
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Fangz posted:You can't keep crews happy with bushido alone. It is hot as balls, I have to sleep in a hammock in an active passageway, poo poo into a bucket because we don't have flush toilets, and don't have fresh food because the food stores aren't refrigerated. But I CAN have a seltzer. The Yamato is an extreme outlier as being the Combined Fleet flagship, it had insane poo poo like actual AC and fresh food. If I had to choose an IJN ship to turn into a spaceship, Yamato would likely be a better choice than one of the subs.
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Apr 9, 2024 21:59
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Fangz posted:This just isn't true. Read about the ramune production facility aboard the Yamato, for example. Looks like I already got beat but the Yamato isn't a good example for the rest of the fleet. It was in a class all its own and was not at all typical of regular IJN ships. It also sat in harbor for almost the entire war because it was too valuable to risk at all.
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Apr 9, 2024 22:07
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Robert Facepalmer posted:It is hot as balls, I have to sleep in a hammock in an active passageway, poo poo into a bucket because we don't have flush toilets, and don't have fresh food because the food stores aren't refrigerated. But I CAN have a seltzer.
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Apr 9, 2024 22:24
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Robert Facepalmer posted:It is hot as balls, I have to sleep in a hammock in an active passageway, poo poo into a bucket because we don't have flush toilets, and don't have fresh food because the food stores aren't refrigerated. But I CAN have a seltzer. D-Pad posted:Looks like I already got beat but the Yamato isn't a good example for the rest of the fleet. It was in a class all its own and was not at all typical of regular IJN ships. It also sat in harbor for almost the entire war because it was too valuable to risk at all. If you read the article you'll see that other large warships had ramune production facilities as well. Sakai sure isn't sortie-ing his Zero off the Yamato... They also had refrigerated fleet supply ships http://www.combinedfleet.com/Kyuryokan_c.htm Don't confuse limitations in resources due to losing the war, especially in rush-built wartime desperation subs, with "they don't care". Edit: only the submarines don't have flush toilets. (Toilets on submarines being a rather tricky problem, see U-1206) Surface ships do, and in fact have quite sophisticated (saltwater) bath facilities. Hara talks about having his entire destroyer crew take baths to prepare themselves for the start of the war. Japanese ships also carried booze and candy. Supply ships carried "comfort kits" made by schoolchildren to random crewmen. Yeah there's no ice cream machine but this was not a navy that didn't care about morale. And let's not talk about the comfort women Fangz fucked around with this message at 23:56 on Apr 9, 2024 |
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Apr 9, 2024 22:52
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SerthVarnee posted:You'll be wrong on that one. I think given the sheer amount of fuel, oil and explosive material stored on an aircraft carrier, wooden decks are the least of your problems as far as flammability goes
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Apr 10, 2024 07:00
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All warships should be made of pykrete, it would solve all the problems mentioned.
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Apr 10, 2024 07:09
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I've heard of comfort women, so this:Fangz posted:Supply ships carried "comfort kits" made by schoolchildren to random crewmen. made me go WTF. Please tell me they didn't make kids whittle wooden dildoes and pocket pussies for sailors.
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Apr 10, 2024 10:01
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It's just postcards, sketches, little letters saying thank you for your heroic actions, handicrafts, stuff like that.
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Apr 10, 2024 10:18
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Thank god.
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Apr 10, 2024 10:28
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there's a scene in Generation Kill where they get them
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Apr 10, 2024 11:13
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Grumio posted:I think given the sheer amount of fuel, oil and explosive material stored on an aircraft carrier, wooden decks are the least of your problems as far as flammability goes Pfft, minor details.
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Apr 10, 2024 13:01
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Cyrano4747 posted:Well, next step would be to track down a copy of that and see where he was getting the info. Not military, but genealogy - I have some deep New England ancestry and I discovered that in the 1830's there was some dude on the east coast writing fake biographies basically making your family sound like English royalty that happened to slip on over here. Some cousin paid for one to be written. As the fake goes, you can trace us all the way back to some dude who scaled the wall at the Battle of Acre, in the fuckin' crusades! Wow! Real white Americans!!! There is ONE scholar I have found, from the 1930's, who pointed out how bunk this was and did good work to prove so - this author wrote a few convincing but fake accounts of other families. Flash forward to the 90s, some lawyer in California writes a big rear end tome on my family and INCLUDES this story of royal crusader ancestry like its facts! Then when like Angelfire and Geocities genealogy started up in the early 2000s, my mother and all sorts of amateurs started parroting the same story. I have never identified any basis for it.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:06
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The basis is fabricating claims on your "ancestral" lands! That gives you casus belli.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:17
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thatbastardken posted:there's a scene in Generation Kill where they get them We got letters from school kids in the first gulf war. It really helped, especially for people who weren't otherwise getting letters from home. I wish there was a way I could thank the people who sent them.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:50
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Cessna posted:We got letters from school kids in the first gulf war. I was one of the kids writing those letters. poo poo was loving grim from our perspective, because the teachers were all presenting it like you guys were marching off into a mix of Vietnam and WW1 and were telling us to be really nice because a lot of you were going to die. This would have been 4th grade or so? Looking back on it now it's not all that surprising that a lot of the adults assumed that poo poo would get grim (even the military planners were expecting significantly more casualties) but more how very frank the teachers were and specifically asking us to be nice to you all because it might be the last letter you ever read.
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Apr 10, 2024 14:56
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