Milhist Thread: Ok, so get this: we name the army groups 1, 2 and 4...

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread: Ok, so get this: we name the army groups 1, 2 and 4...

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HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Broke: I am a historical social anthropologist of early modern central Europe; focusing on subcultures and violent conflict
Woke: Guns go boom

This is where we put the milhist posts.

mod edit:

Siivola's discord is here: https://discord.gg/sT375kR

link to the old thread is here.

# ¿ Dec 6, 2020 20:27

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 21:09

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Mr Enderby posted:

I would like some Military Revolution chat. What would happen if a European 15th century army faced an 18th century one? Was it a matter of an increase of overall state capacity, or was there a fundamental improvement in tactics?

Oh wow. In the first place by the eighteenth century the infrastructure is a lot better. Roads, nutrition of the populace, agricultural capacity...

# ¿ Dec 6, 2020 21:10

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Chamale posted:

Who wrote the effortpost about Nazi uniforms and why they sucked? One of my favourite things I've seen from this thread, it deserves to be on page one.

that's cessna, who wears them for fun (it's not what it looks like)

# ¿ Dec 6, 2020 21:11

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

PittTheElder posted:

The 15th century army would get wrecked nearly every time I'm sure. Greater state capacity means the 18th century army is going to be much bigger, and I don't even know what the 15th century army is supposed to do against field artillery guarded by lines of musket infantry. March away I guess?

The muskets are much faster to load as well, and more accurate

# ¿ Dec 6, 2020 21:11

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

hahahaha the germans packing their helmets like expensive chocolates hahahahaha

# ¿ Dec 6, 2020 22:15

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Thomamelas posted:

Focusing on convoy escort much more than other roles. All frigates would be used in that role but the Spanish focused on it.

The entire spanish economy runs on massive convoys and they are very serious about it. It's in Rahn Phllips' books:

https://www.amazon.com/Six-Galleons-King-Spain-Seventeenth/dp/0801845130
https://www.amazon.com/Treasure-San-Jos%C3%A9-Spanish-Succession/dp/1421404168
https://www.amazon.com/Short-Life-Unlucky-Spanish-Galleon/dp/0816618119

# ¿ Dec 7, 2020 08:43

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeanBeansShako posted:

I assume some of the early DDR uniform stuff was done for cost reasons. Doesn't excuse it and man those fifties early conscipts must of not been the best fans.

why would they care? some of them were the same guys

they even goose step and their parade flags were distinctly Eagle shaped

# ¿ Dec 8, 2020 06:09

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

White Coke posted:

1. Did the Swedes reintroduce shock tactics to cavalry in the 30 Years War, was there already a transition going on, or is the use of the caracole and similar tactics overstated so there wasn't much a decline in the first place?

2. Did the ratio of cavalry to infantry in armies increase throughout the 17th century such that during the wars of Louis XIV armies had as much or greater numbers of cavalry than infantry, and if so why did it?

in the first place i want you to stop thinking in terms of "regress" and "progress." history has no goal. there is no platonic ideal of cav that we're working toward. what you want is what works. it will work for different reasons too--human bengs aren't use-maximizing algorithms; people are lazy, they do what they always did, they do what they're accustomed to and modify it slowly, they act in condtions of constraint. (most constraint is probably logistic.)

the caracole is not "retrograde" and a charge isn't "future oriented and therefore better." a caracole is how you shoot pistols from horseback and then retire to reload. if you have pistols this is one of the ways you will do it. gustavus adolphus can't afford to field cuirassiers (3/4 plate; at least two pistols). his cavalry is also not very good and every time he fights where the real cavalry fighting is, in Poland, he gets beaten soundly and quickly.

there is a long debate about the use of the word "shock tactics" for cavalry. one side of this debate emphasizes that the horses probably touch the foot very rarely in a charge. on the other hand their examples are often things like riot police, where both the cops and the rioters are carefully calbrating their actions to minimize harm to the other side. that said, cavalry's biggest impact s probably psychological--the men on foot break and run whch is the worst thing you can do if faced by cavalry, and then the cavalry's role is to destroy the retreat.

the ratio of cavalry to infantry increased in the 1640s, i do not know about the rest of the century. for instance this is the strength of the saxon army from 1618 to 1651.

cavalry is much easier to supply.

this seems counterintuitive. after all you have to feed the horse. while infantry pay varies cavalrymen are paid a flat 15 gulden per month per horse for this reason (many troopers have more than one horse. the officers have tons. you can see this in personal accounts.). you have to think about it like a seventeenth century quartermaster or captain which means like a complete psychopath: the soldiers are supplying themselves and cavalrymen are more mobile. they can spread out more.

individual regiments and companies also get smaller but battallions (on the field) do not change size. the units just amalgamate on the field. so at the end of the war you see these cav-heavy fights.

credit to pellisworth for the graph

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 06:29 on Dec 8, 2020

# ¿ Dec 8, 2020 06:25

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

White Coke posted:

Most of the sources I've read that discuss the topic seem biased towards the idea that cavalry should be charging the enemy to deliver a "decisive" blow instead of running around shooting at them, and I forgot to put quotations around things like regression. It's why I wanted clarification because the biases seemed so clearly coming through from the authors that I wanted verification from the thread. People really seem to hate the idea of cavalry shooting at the enemy then retreating to reload for some reason.

this is very much the case. all i can think of for why is that those authors believe 17th century tactics and strategy are bad because they're unfamiliar to them. You can draw a direct line from the 18th century to the early 20th...but not the 16th and 17th.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2020 07:18

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Comstar posted:

What made the 16th;/17th cavalry actually use pistols or carbines and have any effect when the Napoleonic ones nearly gave up on them for not actually hitting with them?

however big you think a pistol is, it's bigger.

This guy shoots one but he has no idea how to load without fumbling around. He knows more about these guns than I do but has probably never fired them from horseback.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldz0AviUYvI
Anyway you can see it hit a few targets.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2020 09:30

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Memento posted:

It's not really a military history question, per se, but uhh, how big is the incoming SecDef Lloyd Austin?

If our Secretary of Defense is bigger than theirs, his threat display will intimidate them. This is how diplomacy works. Also, I am an elk.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 04:32

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ChubbyChecker posted:

When I was contemplating on the cavalry, I thought about drilling. Were the native Swedish troops actually better drilled than their opponents? And iirc the musketeers didn't wear armor because it hindered loading the long muskets.

Drilling is very loaded because I'm not actually sure they did it. It would be very difficult to load and fire a musket in armor. It's already difficult for me to fight with a pike in armor but mine is far too big.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 21:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ChubbyChecker posted:

When did the cool armies start to give tobacco and booze to soldiers and when did the nanny states stop this? I've read about how it was handled in navies, but don't know how it was done on land.

At least the 17th century. Vauban mentions making sure you have enough tobacco in garrisons.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 21:47

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

poisonpill posted:

Were cavalry troops generally considered prestigious? You mentioned it could be boring but important work. There�s also the negative connotation to �dragoon�. Why?

Cavalry is prestgious in this order: Lancers; Cuirassiers; Arquebusiers; That light cav everyone who isn't from the Balkans call Croats; Dragoons.

I have no idea why everyone is bigoted against dragoons but they are.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 21:51

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

poisonpill posted:

Right so there�s mounted infantry in the seventeenth century who basically do pacification and are not true gentlemen. Then there are the glorious hussars who hearken back to knightly virtue. What was the thought in the 19th centuries? US cavalry did everything from skirmish in civil war battles to chase Pancho Villa.

The guys who are talking about the nobles thing are exaggerating. It's not that big a deal in the early seventeenth century and it is possible to rise socially in the military during that period. While the proportion of nobles increases with the prestige of the branch; there is no branch that is entirely noble free and I have tables on this from Saxony

One weird byproduct of the way cav works is that the officers are less likely to be noble than the troopers. My theory is that officers have to know a specific skill (literacy; kettledrums; saddlery).

Edit: Certain branches of the infantry are also prestigious such as pikemen.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Dec 9, 2020

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 21:54

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

White Coke posted:

Where do Hussars fit in this, and what distinguishes an Arquebusier from a Dragoon?

Hussars are after my time. Dragoons are mounted infantry; arquebusiers carry a carbine and fight from horseback.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 21:58

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

Why exactly are lancers > cuirassiers during your time?

The heart of any charge; what if arm blanche but big; looks like the things people do at tournaments

# ¿ Dec 9, 2020 22:21

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Weka posted:

You mean your armour, not your pike, I presume.

my armor. it does not fit.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2020 00:34

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Schadenboner posted:

Did the eliteness of lancers stem from the fact they got wings but no one else did?

wrong politcal entity; i study germans. also what we translate as lance is a very long rapier-lance hybrid called a koncerz. It was developed as a pikeman killer. Pike destroyer doctrine.

# ¿ Dec 10, 2020 00:35

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

The Lone Badger posted:

Where does a particularly prestigious infantry unit (grenadiers, say) fall on this list? Above or below dragoons?

grenadiers postdate me although you will give people grenade launchers for an assault (the final push into a beseiged city for instance)

# ¿ Dec 10, 2020 01:37

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

ChubbyChecker posted:

These: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_mortar ?

Interesting looking things, hadn't heard about them before.

i love seventeenth century grenade launchers

# ¿ Dec 10, 2020 20:18

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

razak posted:

Gasmask container.

there is an ernst juenger thing from ww1 where he had been putting sandwiches in his mask container and it worked great until the day he was actually gassed

# ¿ Dec 11, 2020 00:20

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

zoux posted:

How does WWII reenacting work? I can gather how musket-era military reenactments go, bunch of dudes ~~stand in lines and shoot black powder at one another~~ getting drunk

fixed

# ¿ Dec 11, 2020 00:23

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Fish of hemp posted:

Were those the bombs that look like this?

If larger those bombs are also exploding shot; which dates from at least the 16th century. The fuse is lit by the explosion that propels it out the barrel. I believe a 17th century grenade launcher works the same way.

# ¿ Dec 11, 2020 00:26

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

White Coke posted:

When did over engineering become a problem for the Germans? Was it the Nazi's fault, or did it happen earlier?

Earlier. You will never be as happy or as profoundly at peace as a german contemplating a Mechanism

# ¿ Dec 11, 2020 01:30

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

I'm not sure this was ever more than a patent appllication--although cube bullets were used for example to clear decks if a ship were being boarded. William the Silent was shot with a gun loaded with cube bullets.

# ¿ Dec 12, 2020 05:52

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

xthetenth posted:

foraging, which is a cute euphemism for something hideous

hello there

# ¿ Dec 13, 2020 05:55

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Gaius Marius posted:

That entire British Pathé Channel is an absolute treasure trove of cool old film. I'm particularly fond of the ones showing the operations of the automat.

no what we need;
is the pekignese racing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVagSWJD2Bs

# ¿ Dec 13, 2020 05:57

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Faffel posted:

Danger is sexy.

someone said "gently caress war" and one thing led to another

# ¿ Dec 14, 2020 02:01

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

oXDemosthenesXo posted:

What about in person demonstrations? I've seen plenty of videos of cannons but I want the sound/feeling of a black powder cannon.

Join a reenacting group and hope you are one of the ones that live fires once or twice a year. i've done it; it's cool. the most interesting thing was the smacking noise of canister hitting tree branches. Low flat "someone is hitting these branches" noises.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:09 on Dec 23, 2020

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 11:05

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Comstar posted:

Firing Napoleonic artillery should be an Olympic sport. Add horses and time to move, unlimber, deploy, fire, hit the target, reload and fire 3 times, relimber and get back to the start line.

Unlimbering and getting into line is much more complex than you probably assume.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 11:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

chitoryu12 posted:

I've been around them several times. They're much louder than you expect them to be. A 2-pounder firing a quarter charge was enough to make it feel like an ice pick was jammed in my ear when I didn't cover it while standing 20 yards away.

if the people who were doing it were anything similar to the people I was with 20 years ago they would have told the spectators to cover their ears and open their mouths. were you not listening?

if they didn't tell you that's their fault. There are a lot of reenactors who have just awful safety.

HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Dec 23, 2020

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 11:07

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Nenonen posted:

It would probably be an okay crossfit exercise.

i hate crossfit so no

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 13:06

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

SeanBeansShako posted:

Until the nineties in the UK at least the armed forces had a sort of physical fitness drill tournament against each other which did have soldiers setting up and moving traditional artillery pieces.

so the period ACW manuals say you should "spring" to move the piece back into position after the recoil has made it do whatever it's going to do and it's come to a safe halt.

I've done this. There's little springing involved.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 16:30

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Cyrano4747 posted:

I�d read that as �spring to action� as in get to it ASAP.

possible is really carrying a lot of weight there.

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 16:33

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

BalloonFish posted:

The Field Gun Competition is still around, but only as a long-standing private competition between various RN teams.

The 'official' RN Command version, which included having to get the disassembled gun and crew across a chasm and over a couple of walls, hasn't been run since 1999, but a couple of civilian teams still do it.

The gun is an 8cwt 12-pounder, complete with carriage, wheels, limber, ammunition and (in the Command version) a pair of spars and lifting tackle to get it over the chasm.

What a handsome piece. But there's something weird on the breech... :v:

# ¿ Dec 23, 2020 16:40

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Chamale posted:

I stood too close to a cannon when I was 12; a 16-pounder firing a quarter charge. I wanted to see it up close so I snuck under the safety rope at the last moment. Now my friends have to tap me on the shoulder before speaking to me.

My left ear will probably always hurt because of some officer in reenacting who placed my batallion wrong

# ¿ Dec 25, 2020 05:29

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Kaiser Schnitzel posted:

This is getting into TFR territory, but the ATF basically only considers things that use cartridges to be guns. If the propellant and projectile have to be loaded separately (like a black powder muzzleloader), it's not really considered to be a firearm in the US.

Yes: everything I enjoy is not legally a "gun." And yet my college dorm was not friendly to this argument.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2020 05:31

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I thought this was a post from the GiP Idiots thread until I saw who posted it and the word "reenacting". This is seriously some enlisted.txt experience.

I'm always on the front rank far left of the pikemen. We were too close to a cannon on our left side.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2020 12:53

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 21:09

HEY GUNS: Oct 11, 2012; FOPTIMUS PRIME

Vincent Van Goatse posted:

I thought this was a post from the GiP Idiots thread until I saw who posted it and the word "reenacting". This is seriously some enlisted.txt experience.

Did the whole placing of batallions on a field for set battle part not tip you off?

# ¿ Dec 25, 2020 18:46

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Milhist Thread: Ok, so get this: we name the army groups 1, 2 and 4...

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