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FizFashizzle posted:WANT SOME MORE MOCKS I've been watching some QB cut-ups for next year. I'm posting these for posterity and hope to re-evaluate at the end of next season to see what develops. Howell at 2 is wayyy more egregious than Daniels at 10 from where I'm sitting. TDN made the observation that he's the only QB In FBS who threw more RPOs than Mac Jones, and I actually think that undersells things a bit. Longo's sort of notorious for somehow looking at the Freeze-era Mississippi offense and going "what if we took the handful of complicated parts and just replaced it with Briles-tree vert looks". If I was trying to put together an offense where all I had was some freaky receivers and a QB with a big arm that's mediocre at everything else, it would look a lot like how Longo builds his systems, which makes sense coming from the background he does. Howell clearly throws a nice ball and makes the object/key reads in the RPO game where he's triggering based off of the action of an individual defender. Like Mac, it's essentially a pick and roll where what the defender declares determines the location of the read and ball, and he was clearly in a position where his skill guys tended to be far better than who they were playing most games. What's very very funny about Howell is how unwilling they seem to be to ever let him read full field for anything beyond 10 yards. He's allowed to essentially read a set area amount of the field (e.g. 200 square feet) and no more, by design. That's fine, considering the goal of the offense is "ball out fast", but what's super weird is that he mechanically could make his own life so much easier with that limitation in mind. He duck steps around in the pocket and constantly looks like he's going to drop into a low-bar squat when he's moving around, similar to Trey Lance this year but without the excuse being god-tier athleticism. Howell is athletic, but not enough that he can get away with bad footwork or constant movement. He doesn't zip the ball--he can throw a spiral and clearly can throw far, but his velocity looks very very off. Watch him against Clemson in '19 or Wake/BC in '20, and he misses a good number of windows that he clearly recognizes but can't get the ball to fast enough. It scares me a bit that he has two years of film with that kind of mechanical hitch, but it's also entirely possible that UNC just isn't concerned and would rather he throw catchable balls for RAC than a hard ball that may maximize potential run but also invites drop risk. He almost always ends up looking in the right direction, but I just can't get my head around the fact that he still misses the windows due to his tendency to put a bunch of air under the ball. I remember watching him on QB1 when he had a fairly mediocre new team he suddenly had to get used to compared to how a lot of high-end QBs come up, so I also wonder if he stunted himself a bit between then and UNC by taking something off to keep his receivers/coaches from bitching. Oh also, this is entirely a personal gripe, but he's really really goofy in how he holds the ball for handoffs--looks like there's a spider on the ball and like he's just desperate to get it out. I think that's a side effect of their blocking schemes frequently leaving guys unblocked from the edge, but some old-timey coach is going to murder him when he fumbles a handoff from not securing the ball super well. What I don't get is what the difference is between him and like Drew Lock right now. They're similar types of raw, and Lock had a way better arm than Howell in a system that wasn't horribly different. He's still got potential for the top 3 rounds and could easily be a high first rounder if his mechanics get cleaned up a bit, because he does genuinely seem to have a good sense of pressure in space and where the ball needs to go, but I can't help but think he could easily go Kellen Mond on us where he looks like he has the toolkit for the next level but gets obscured by a system (in this case, RPO game that runs faster than the arm allows it at times as opposed to the Jimbo "run these 400 plays with my exact read structure, ball flight, and cadence as opposed to extending plays with your athleticism") that magnifies some weird flaws in the QBs that may or may not be a big deal. Malik Willis actually has some similar problems to Howell. Freeze's offense is jokingly referred to as a high school offense. I don't think that's fair, because I don't know of a single high school that runs the ball this poorly when the ball isn't in the hands of a QB. Same RPO/passing skeleton concepts as UNC which isn't surprising, given the cross-pollination between those coaching trees. What jumps out is that he has a lot of raw, native velocity to his arm. He sort of shapes the ball in a 3/4 delivery (think Phil Rivers school of quarterbacking), but he's also prone to picking his back leg up before letting go at times, which means he flutters balls low on receivers, particularly in the screen game. That can also mean too much air on deep balls (either short or long depending on which way you lean) when you're throwing deep in the scramble drill. If you watch some of his deep balls and screen game against VT, you'll see what I mean. His footwork otherwise isn't horrible--it just looks like a typical spread QB who can run--somewhat bow legged and a little willing to squat to avoid contact. In terms of positives? He's an absolutely amazing athletic specimen. He can run, particularly in the stretch game, and give you throws from the numbers that make the Mahomes/Jackson/Watson vertical rollout game possible for you. He's also shown some semblance of touch and will take things off if a guy needs space to toe-tap at the edge, though he will occasionally take too much off for an easy ball play for a CB/S. I think he, as a QB prospect, looks like a slightly more raw version of RG3 right now, where he shows some absolutely insane passes but isn't quite as accurate in any phase of the game and can run but shouldn't ever really be between the tackles or put in a position to do so 20 times a game like a Lamar/Vick mold where they can take the hits. You could totally make the case as well that he's just faster Jake Locker with his accuracy coming and going off of his weird, awful mechanics. If we're talking guys I think are going to end up being hyped but then settle towards a late Day 1 into Day 2 pick, Malik is probably there just because I don't think he'll show enough. Highest ceiling, lowest floor. Rattler's a freak. Cannon arm with a good release point and velocity, and he runs well enough that you can run the stretch/rollout game with him at any level. I think he's QB1 next year, but I also think he's got a significant ways to go before he belongs in the same conversation as Murray or Lawrence. He's not afraid to try to outthrow corners, almost to a fault, since he can be spoofed by a pattern match or late hook/corner zone like in a cover 4 or rip/liz. I think a lot of that comes down to his lack of experience--if you watch his high school tape he played for a freakish air raid team where he could throw any guy open if they knew where to run to, but it's not that easy in college when DCs can set traps for you. That's not to say he can't attack zone--if you watch someone try to play vanilla cover 3/2 on him, he does what every Lincoln Riley QB does and immediately moves towards the stress point in the route tree, particularly in the underneath. In fact, he actually reads mesh and shallow cross variants a lot like how BYU had Wilson run them this year, which is kind of neat. I also love the way he climbs the pocket or changes the throwing platform if he knows a guy will eventually be open but doesn't have an immediate lane, since he doesn't tend to overrun plays outside of the occasional scramble drill. What do I hate? For one, his drop back and movement backwards is super super weird. He really drops his back shoulder and sinks into his back foot a lot, which happens when you get guys with a lot of velocity where that isn't necessarily harmful to them, the problem is you end up sailing balls over receivers or taking too much off and getting it in the hands of a defender. That said, there's a line in QB scouting about "repeatable mistakes" that guys show they play around as not necessarily a problem. Think of the Rivers or Kaep sidearm or the tendency by Dak/Mahomes to drop their shoulder when rolling, it's considered a technical error compared to "ideal motion", but if they show consistent results with the glitch, you may not necessarily try correcting it if the results are still what you want. Great offenses at this point take those weaknesses into consideration, and I'm not sure that this will rise to the level where a younger coordinator feels the need to tinker (an older one might). I will say though that a lot of his bad passes in a scramble or pressure situation that result in incompletions or interceptions tend to be a result of him doing his backward motion to set but not necessarily exploding. He also gets cute falling off of the ball on a scramble drill. He's going to draw a loooot of Mahomes comparisons, but his arm still isn't in Patrick's league in terms of sheer force. He's about a 75th percentile guy who might have 85th if he cleans things up, but there's probably going to be some growing pains when those sidearms aren't quite a surprise when you don't have the arm to do literally whatever you want. That means he's potentially going to look more like Murray where those scramble plays end up 50/50 as opposed to 75/25, which means he'll be system dependent. Additionally, I don't always love the way he goes over the middle. When you have a big arm, you tend to believe that a safety or robber in cover 3 is dead meat once you have receivers to each of his sides whether that's east/wed or north/south. The problem, is that you have to not only wait on that conflict but also not immediately declare that's what you're looking at for one simple reason--a safety can still beat you if you stare down where you're going. It's not uncommon for pass-happy high school offenses with high-end kids to create little glitches like that where a guy recognizes the coverage and immediately stares at where he knows he'll need to go, but vertical routes in college and the NFL necessitate you doing a little bit of extra work to make the defender think you're not going there until it's too late. Daniels looks like a high-end air raid QB right now, and I don't mean that as a slam. When you watch him throw, he has two speeds right now, high-tight spiral and arcing lob. His fastball, particularly over the middle, is really well done--fast mechanics, some of the best footwork in the class and minimal looping. His arc balls give me a headache. He throws a lot of deep play action and shot plays to Pickens and the other receivers that are functionally 50/50 balls that become 75/25 because of the UGA receivers. He got better as the year went on at working in some fast high balls that are slightly better percentage, but even his USC film showed that he occasionally would take too much off and hang a ball that gets him in trouble. It's a good thing to show touch, but his development needs to be in changing speeds downfield and at the sidelines. I also think he mechanics go to poo poo a bit when he's putting air on the ball. Watch him in PA, and he's adding an extra second winding up which gets the ball there late and makes it a jump as opposed to a catch and run. I think a lot of that is mechanical, because he clearly has the arm strength to put the ball downfield, but it's likely a matter or release point. Some prep QBs, particularly air raid or elite 11 types, drill their motions so much that the idea of doing something as a changeup or offspeed means that they have to change everything because the motion is the motion for that ball. High-end NFL guys have consistent motions for 90% of throws where the change is essentially the release point and last 5% of the motion's speed. Daniels hasn't learned that yet, and I'm not going to pretend I'm hopeful that UGA's coaching staff inspires that in him. I don't have enough tape to feel great about prognosticating him, since I can point to things that put him anywhere from 1st round all the way to the 5th right now. The injury history is going to be a question as well. Slovis is odd. He has some of the best footwork of anyone potentially in this class, where he takes small, deliberate steps and doesn't seem to move his shoulders off platform while staying in the pocket well. Then I look at his arm and get confused. I don't know what causes it, but he's leaking a lot of velocity out of his hand at times, particularly on the move or in jump ball situations where he's trying to place the ball a bit much. Mechanically, I think he's using his palm to mute the velocity to get his touch, which isn't horrible but can affect the ball flight a bit and keep it from spiraling which can get you in trouble. It's not an always thing though, because he absolutely shows an ability to hoon deep balls when he recognizes a vertical opening. The other thing I don't know about at times is his processing. A lot of his reads are half field or deep ball shots where he's essentially allowed to just pick a matchup because his receivers were really really really good compared to their competition this year, but it wasn't pick a matchup in terms of "oh this is an option route" or something that necessarily creates space--just a straight jump ball. Drake London in particular looked like he bailed him out of a number of questionable throws. I would want to see what happens with him in a full year with this offense to see how much he can actually do. I'm inclined to think he's going to get the Zach Wilson treatment next year where his similarity to the old prototype and mechanics ameliorate some of the scheme concerns, but he could be a high-end prospect with some minimal tinkering. I think he's actually one of the more finished products on this list, even if his ceiling isn't what you see out of a Willis or Rattler. Here are some guys you should watch next year for potential sudden risers: Jayden Daniels - Arizona State No idea why he's not getting the bump Malik is. He's the same caliber, if not better, of an athlete, but his arm mechanics are a lot smoother with better touch and consistency at the sideline. Biggest issue is that he'll sidearm balls and sometimes stand up too stiff or wobbly when delivering--both of which are classic Dual Threat issues that can be coached out. I think the limited Pac 12 season has people sleeping on him a lot . He could put up a 3000/1000 year for them this coming year and get his name up there in a big way. Carson Strong - Nevada You like deep balls? Watch this dude. His deep touch and accuracy are fantastic, and he pretty much always finds the matchup. The rest of his makeup right now is questionable. He's extremely jumpy on his feet which means he lofts balls unintentionally, and he's got a strange windup where he looks at times like he throws around the ball from the bottom--almost like you dumbbell clean the ball into place. His short game doesn't always show the velocity/zip needed, but I think he's got the arm to do it. The offense also isn't consistently difficult to read--lotta 4 verts. Could easily have a Love/Allen/Wilson bump or just be a Lindley type guy who someone talks themselves into if he comes out next year. Lots of small school guys will probably hang out longer due to the covid eligibility rules. Graham Mertz - Wisconsin I know, I know. The only good Wisconsin QB wasn't even really developed there. Mertz is good enough that Wisconsin ran 5 wide at points and regularly showed a level of accuracy and velocity that is pretty rare for a program like Wisconsin. Couple that with his ability in play action to really turn and read/throw fast, and I like what he potentially could be. He lofts too many balls and doesn't always wait for a defense to declare/develop, but he probably is going to be a top-2 QB in the big 10 this year. Phil Jurkovec - BC Transferred from ND because of uh...Ian Book? Is the opposite of Ian Book in that he's built like Terelle Pryor. I think he's really raw in reading defenses beyond RPO/quick game stuff and gets by on hooning the ball with mediocre technique at points because he can push the ball vertically without issue, but he could easily take a step forward and have a Day 1/2 grade with just some technical refinements. Hard to scout at times because the BC receiving corps wasn't great in the system this year and frequently looked lost on some of their own constraint palys.
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May 13, 2021 21:11
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Very interested to know what you think of Dillon Gabriel. He seems to have plenty of talent but he's been in a weird scheme. Also curious if there's any shot in hell that a team could take a flyer on Milton (I unfortunately already know the answer to this).
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May 13, 2021 21:16
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We have so many question marks at prime positions WRT injury that it’d be more of a total guess than usual what Miami was staring down with the first round next year Likelihood is DE QB LB WR in that order
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May 13, 2021 21:35
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Grey Ghost I gotta say. Good on you for developing the verbage and film study tools to actually express what you wanted to say. A few years ago I felt like you'd just post poo poo that sounded like made up opinion, but thats a good breakdown of those QBs. Kudos to you.
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May 13, 2021 21:45
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Grey Ghost I gotta say. Good on you for developing the verbage and film study tools to actually express what you wanted to say. A few years ago I felt like you'd just post poo poo that sounded like made up opinion, but thats a good breakdown of those QBs. Kudos to you. Dude's straight killing it this year. If only there was a good analogy for it
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May 13, 2021 22:31
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thanks grey ghost that was tits
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May 14, 2021 00:25
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Grey Ghost I gotta say. Good on you for developing the verbage and film study tools to actually express what you wanted to say. A few years ago I felt like you'd just post poo poo that sounded like made up opinion, but thats a good breakdown of those QBs. Kudos to you. I'm not kidding when I say having standard terms in mind when you talk or scratch down notes about a position as funky as quarterbacks especially is my big lesson learned from the first few years to now. Like, being able to describe things like a throwing platform (feet and shoulder alignment at the throw) versus a stance (things like width and posture before entering a throwing motion) versus movement characteristics (what's a scramble, pocket climb, rollout, etc.) really makes comparisons a lot easier and gives you much better context about the offenses that guys are in. It's also amusing because you do end up with significantly more respect for essentially every player when you watch a bunch of this film, because holy poo poo even being a bad D1 quarterback is unthinkable for any of us. I absolutely despised every minute I spent watching Ehlinger's tape this year, but I still can't help but be like, "drat he was still a good QB for college". Or, you have moments like I did watching Kellen Mond where you just want to scream at Jimbo Fisher that he has an all-world athlete at quarterback but is making him play like he's Drew Bledsoe or some poo poo. Thinking my big quest for next year is to watch more DL clinics this year. Trying to scout DL really is getting more difficult with some of the bizarre fronts that get used in college now (4i Tite front like what Iowa State does for example), and that seems like a good place to focus. Sort of like how QBs used to go weird college offense > *magic* > how that QB plays in a boring NFL offense because "THE SPREAD WON'T WORK UP HERE". NFL defenses don't really look a lot like college ones outside of some of the blue chips, usually because everyone in the NFL or at those blue chips is fast enough that you rarely worry about like 5-6 second plays the way most college teams occasionally do--guys get sacked or throw away before then even on a 4-man pressure at the highest levels. zimbomonkey posted:Very interested to know what you think of Dillon Gabriel. He seems to have plenty of talent but he's been in a weird scheme. I haven't watched a lot of Gabriel in a scouting context. From what I've seen of him, I think he's still incredibly raw and not horribly likely to get so with the design of the scheme being essentially pure pace and space that prioritizes fast reads over the extra half second to get the technique perfect. It shows in his sack numbers too, where I remember watching at least one game of his where he just ran himself into trouble several times because an initial read wasn't there, but he didn't want to give up on the play, despite it being a quick read. Pulling a couple of games from him, my initial impression with his technique is that he has a weird quirk in his motion where he almost looks like he's making a batwing or trying to hold a lat pulldown machine when he rotates. It looks like he does that to minimize some shaking from his arms and legs not always being perfectly in sync, but it could also be that he was hurt and playing through or even that he's just stiff. I also see him winding up a bit where he submarines down, particularly on deep balls. Really, he reminds me a lot of Tyree Jackson from Buffalo a few years ago where he looks incredibly toolsy but just has a bunch of disparate things going on. You can have an odd throwing platform/stiffness in the shoulders/trunk, or a windup, but having all both ends up adding enough time and uncertainty to the motion that the burden of proof for how accurate you have to be to not get dinged by a scout is essentially a perfect lower body, which almost no one shows at the college level. He could easily take a step and end up a mid-late draft guy, but I can't see him getting a Bortles bump or anything like that just given the mechanical differences and scheme are all things that are going to scare people. Milton makes me sad. I think the height and injury history essentially guarantee he's a UDFA at present, but if he lights the world up, someone might take a flyer late. He was a fairly accurate short game passer without a huge arm from what I remember of him, but like Gabriel, he's going to have to show some serious technical chops at FSU to really get people to overlook the fact that he's short and nearly died. I really hope it works out, but I can't help but think of the JT Barrett type of college guy who was an all-world college guy that got robbed of some athleticism by injuries and gets by on being a solid D1 athlete and just pure rep experience.
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May 14, 2021 00:52
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I just judge if the player name is cool or not
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May 14, 2021 02:20
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Doltos posted:I just judge if the player name is cool or not D'Brickashaw Ferguson
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May 14, 2021 02:21
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:D'Brickashaw Ferguson its one of those where i wish they could put the first name on the back of the drat jersey
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May 14, 2021 03:38
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d'brickashaw is one of the most oline possible names
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May 14, 2021 03:39
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Borsche69 posted:d'brickashaw is one of the most oline possible names incorrect Stone Forsythe is
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May 14, 2021 03:50
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Ches Neckbeard posted:incorrect This is where I tell you Auburn has a guy named Brodarius Hamm who could be a decent prospect on OL next year.
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May 14, 2021 05:00
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Doltos posted:I just judge if the player name is cool or not Grunky Peep Hingle McCringleberry Fartrell Cluggins A-a-ron Rodgers
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May 14, 2021 06:02
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Those ones are funny
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May 14, 2021 12:33
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Barkevious Mingo is unfuck-withable as far as names go on the field perhaps not so much.
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May 14, 2021 15:59
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TheBizzness posted:Barkevious Mingo is unfuck-withable as far as names go Him and Ras-I Dowling are the two biggest name busts for me. Hopefully Amon-Ra St. Brown pans out.
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May 14, 2021 16:33
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this namechat prompted me to look where Racey McMath landed in this year's draft and unfortunately it's the Titans
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May 14, 2021 16:43
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TheBizzness posted:Barkevious Mingo is unfuck-withable as far as names go Charcandrick west D'Brickashaw Ferguson Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Ebenezer Ekuban Tiki Barber Equanimeous St. Brown Dick Butkus Guy Whimper Plaxico Burress Frostee Rucker Forrest Lamp Whitney Mercilus Lil'Jordan Humphrey Richie Incognito
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May 14, 2021 17:51
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Leperflesh posted:Charcandrick west Ftfy
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May 14, 2021 17:53
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Leperflesh posted:Charcandrick west Dan Smith, BYU
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May 14, 2021 18:02
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McLeod John Baltazar Bethel-Thompson
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May 14, 2021 18:04
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Leperflesh posted:Charcandrick west
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May 14, 2021 19:06
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Ndamukong Suh is also a great name considering his surname means “House of Spears” IIRC
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May 14, 2021 19:17
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I tend to avoid calling names that are from a different language than English "weird" or "funny" purely because they seem unfamiliar to an Anglophone's ear, which is why I skipped eg. Suh, Chris Fuamatu-Ma'afala, etc. All of the guys I listed have uniquely American names. e. but they can still be great. Ndamukong Suh is a great name, I agree.
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May 14, 2021 19:25
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I run a trivia group and one category was, 'Real NFL player or Key and Peele East Vs West character' On ten names, nobody got better than 70percent.
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May 14, 2021 19:39
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Leperflesh posted:Equanimeous St. Brown The weird thing, on top of being named Equanimeous, is that his dad's last name is Brown. Not St Brown, just plain ol Brown.
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May 14, 2021 19:41
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Hizawk posted:I run a trivia group and one category was, I did a bit like that for the Kentucky Derby last year and people seemed to enjoy it (actual historical horse name or banned name)
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May 14, 2021 19:53
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Always thought Teddy Bridgewater is the most fake sounding great QB name of all time
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May 14, 2021 20:14
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Good name doesn't equal funny or quirky name. It means that if your FB is named Mack Strong he's probably going to be a HoFer and if you draft Aaron Dobson in the 2nd round and expect a WR with that name to ever be relevant then I don't know what to tell you
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May 14, 2021 20:31
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What happens if your name is Colt or something and you grow up to be a CPA? How does that happen
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May 14, 2021 20:37
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Doltos posted:I just judge if the player name is cool or not Having a football face is very important as well.
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May 14, 2021 20:41
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The Big Jesus posted:I did a bit like that for the Kentucky Derby last year and people seemed to enjoy it (actual historical horse name or banned name) Local radio station does Rock Band, Race Horse, or Porn Film every so often. There are a lot of 12 year old boys naming race horses, apparently.
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May 14, 2021 21:58
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Doltos posted:Good name doesn't equal funny or quirky name. It means that if your FB is named Mack Strong he's probably going to be a HoFer and if you draft Aaron Dobson in the 2nd round and expect a WR with that name to ever be relevant then I don't know what to tell you My conspiracy theory with Dobson has always been that Belichick thought a guy with that last name from Marshall would be another *ahem* scrappy, small school, undersized, blue collar receiver. Actually, I could really devote a whole novel to how bad Bill is at finding receivers in the draft. Like, the running joke of Nick Saban never getting special teams right or teaching corner technique that doesn’t translate well—that’s the Pats with wide receivers. Even the best have blind spots. Mingo still makes me really sad. No one had really figured out that LSU made their living in that era by just sticking fast guys at the edge and shrugging because they had all-world defensive backs and huge cloggers in the middle. There’s like a whole generation of lost edge guys like him where people never understood how to build an actual speed rush move set that doesn’t just get you clamped down easily with a double team or effective chip. What the market learned is essentially that power rushers (think a boss or watt) can still do speed rush utilities without dying to effective reach blocking, but the reverse isn’t true. Oweh could’ve been a gholston type riser a decade ago, but people recognized his rawness more readily.
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May 15, 2021 04:56
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Tuanigamanuolepola Tagovailoa
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May 17, 2021 17:48
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Jax's grades on a bunch of prospects were leaked in the footage they took for some YouTube Draft Series. Jags had Lawrence at 8.0 and Waddle at 8.0. They had Phillips at 7.5 ( For Jets they had Wilson at 7.0 and AVT at 7.5!). Also interesting they had Etienne at 7.0; Tyson Campbell at 6.9 and for the Dolphins Holland & Eich both at 6.8.
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May 22, 2021 16:38
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Amy Pole Her posted:Jax's grades on a bunch of prospects were leaked in the footage they took for some YouTube Draft Series. Is that out of 10? Also what did they have Mac Jones at.
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May 22, 2021 16:41
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You can only see so much. It isn’t a situation where they panned over the entire board, just what you can catch on their little cards I’ll post the screen grabs
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May 22, 2021 16:43
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Shimrra Jamaane posted:Is that out of 10? Also what did they have Mac Jones at. It’s on a scale of 8.0. 
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May 22, 2021 17:10
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Do they actually skip 6.9 in their grading? Cowards.
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May 22, 2021 17:13
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