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The Shame Boy posted:Evolved had 2K as it's publisher and this game has WB so i don't know if Turtle Rock just keeps getting picked up by lovely publishers that do lovely monetization on top of a good base game or if L4D was mostly a fluke because they had help from Valve at the time. People like to try and diss Valve by saying they didn’t even really develop Portal and Left 4 Dead, but Kim Swift without Valve made Quantum Conundrum and Turtle Rock without Valve made… this.
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Aug 8, 2021 08:37
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Anyone worked out how the cards work? The #1 starter slot seems like a good position for the Knife. Supposedly a dev said something about the #1-#5 slots? After you've picked a card it seems to vanish from your deck and once you've got less than 5 cards left, you get lovely generics like +5 health.
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Aug 8, 2021 11:33
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Gave this a shot with some friends. My first experience with the game was trying to adjust my mouse sensitivity and discovering a weird glitch that hard locked my mouse sensitivity to 0 and persisted even when I quit the game, necessitating a reboot. I eventually narrowed this down to only happening when I had the temerity to enter the menu while in the outpost; adjusting settings while in-game worked fine. Okay, whatever. Played a few rounds on the default difficulty, which appears to be tuned for coma patients because every single zombie except the bigger specials seems to die in one shot to any gun and they hit for almost no damage. All of the guns feel like I'm firing a paintball gun; terrible, tinny soundwork and no real oomph to any of them. If I'm unloading with a huge rear end LMG or an auto shotgun on zombies in a game in 2021 I expect to hear that fucker thumping like a subwoofer and the zombies I'm shooting to fall apart, not lightly slump over like it's nap time. The specials are terribly designed; none of them have really clear audio cues like the Hunter's shrieks or the Smoker's coughing from L4D, and none of them really have unique, easily recognizable visuals beyond the big guys, who are only really notable because they are big. I don't really give a crap about the card system; it being there doesn't bother me so much as it feels like a really weird way to add customization. After playing for a couple hours we tried to bump it up to Veteran and were met with constant, repeated server connection errors and time outs, at which point we said gently caress it and uninstalled. On the plus side it did make me want to reinstall Vermintide 2, so that's cool.
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Aug 8, 2021 12:02
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Really what gets me how little purpose the specials seem to have. They pretty much always just boil down to "shoot this thing first", but without really influencing how you play the game overall. Take the exploder, for example, and compare it with L4D's boomer explosion. The Boomer only explodes when you actually kill him, but he's also very fragile. He likes to lurk right around corners or behind doors, too. Even when he's not there, this changes the way you play: don't just reflexively shoot anything that moves, check corners and side doors, keep a bit of distance among your group. When he is there, the best way to deal with a boomer is fairly deliberate: Shove him back, get some distance, make sure everybody else is at a safe distance, and only then take the shot. On the other hand, B4B's exploder: He explodes not only on death, but can also make himself explode more or less at will, and has a fair amount of hitpoints. He usually spawns fairly far away and sticks around in the open (cause anything else would be bullshit), so that doesn't really change how you move through a level. The game has no shove, the only thing you can really do is shoot him before he gets close. He doesn't change the way you play, he's just another thing to hold left click at.
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Aug 8, 2021 13:31
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I can't believe this doesn't have campaign versus, that's such a bummer. Apart from general instability and constant connection drops, It was scratching that L4D itch somewhat. I cannot overlook them tying themselves to Left 4 Dead so heavily in the marketing and not even carrying over the best mode in the game though. Shameless!
Kernel Monsoon fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Aug 8, 2021 |
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Aug 8, 2021 13:57
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I used to play modded maps on L4D1 where everyones a Hunter and we're all playing tag by doing insane curvy trick jumps to get away from the other hunters who are on fire trying to spread it to you. I spent dozens of hours just learning how to trick jump as a Hunter on challenge maps designed for it. I was really expecting something that would have that level of depth at least. Just...use the same Hunter but with a different name? They already made the thing in the first place, just upgrade it into something different but with the same feeling, how can Valve sue for that. These special infected are all worse in every way. Maybe Source is just that much better. Brendan Rodgers fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Aug 8, 2021 |
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Aug 8, 2021 15:17
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This game's definitely got an issue with game design imho. L4D had specials that were fragile and did their jobs and forced specific gameplay responses. IE smokers could split your group, hunters punished you for splitting up to scavenge alone, and boomers were able to ambush you and very punishing if they exploded on you but were easy to hear and kill at a distance. Here, the equivalents are a big dude that runs at you through your weapon fire and grabs you, which is pretty much unavoidable, a jumpy infected that shoots you from a distance (again pretty much unavoidable), and a tougher boomer that runs at you and can also vomit on you from a distance/over cover/around corners (again, unavoidable). There's no actual gameplay difference other than just shooting them/walking away from them. They don't force you to play any differently. The director spawns them constantly, sometimes multiple at a time. There's no actual gameplay around them, you kind of just eat poo poo because one showed up and you didn't pump enough bullets into it in time.They all feel like insane bullet sponges, which feels loving terrible. I suspect part of this is the card system meaning that without a proper card setup special health is overtuned.There's this whole layer of game set up that I think is totally unnecessary (the whole roguelike/card system). It forces the game to be attritional. The card system/loot, the nominal reward for engaging with the game's mechanics, doesn't feel super impactful. It all seems to me like a pretty hard example of trying to design systems for system's sake without concern for what actual engagement with that system looks like at a player level. For example, melee is loving terrible in this game. It's slow and has a godawful animation that hits one or maybe two infected. This is probably because of the melee cards that buff melee were too strong where animations could sweep a large number of infected, but the result is that base melee is practically unusable and even with cards it still FEELS bad because of how loving awful the animations are lol.
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Aug 8, 2021 16:00
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Played for a few hours and also ran into the bug where certain levels have a point-of-no-return and if a player respawns from death before that point and you've run past it, the level is unwinnable and you have to just leave the game. Like...how the gently caress is this game a month from release and this is still something that happens? Otherwise, I think most of my complaints are polish-based. You only occasionally see teammates projectiles so even when you have a kill-wall set up you see huge amounts of enemies just sort of fall over unceremoniously which is lame. Unless a zombie's head totally explodes, I'm sometimes not even sure if I was the one who landed the killing hit or not. I never see the projectiles from enemies like the Boomer or Spitters, and I see teammates die all the time because they stand in the bile gunk because they never see it coming at them. I also end up getting hit by a zombie from behind and I'm always like "what the gently caress is that" because I never really hear them running at me or anything. The difficulty is also all over the place. I was in a round where everyone was playing super safe and we got to the final stretch with almost full HP, a wave triggered so we hunkered down in a hallway, a Boomer turned the corner and exploded on all of us and took us down to 30% in a single hit. 90% of the levels aren't really dangerous so long as you take it slow, but that makes dying in the final big danger zone feel that much worse, and in my experience if you die after spending 10 mins on a map people will just leave. e: as someone else said, special infected feel like they have WAY too much health I've been forced into shotguns in a few runs and it's hard to tell the effective distance of the gun because it doesn't really have any sort of oomph to it, even up close. Shooting one of the jumpy ones with a shotgun and my sidearm pistol seem no different, no matter the distance. But, if basic shotgun logic holds up, I don't know why you would want to use one considering what someone said earlier - every enemy you want to just kill on sight, and almost every special spawn is where you see it running at you from a mile away. Maybe they'll be more useful in Nightmare mode when every gun isn't a oneshot. The card stuff seems cool but it's, of course, unfortunate that it's a matter of grinding before you hit the ones that significantly change gameplay. I like the idea of builds that would change the way you play the matches instead of just using the same weapons every game. The economy stuff is kind of neat, but sort of the opposite of what I said before where I do find myself making the same sorts of decisions every time, since you have your pick of every item at the shops. I'll play the game for a while because of gamepass but yeah I'd never buy it full price
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Aug 8, 2021 16:59
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i keep getting failed matchmaking errors when i start the client up. anyone know whats up with that?
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Aug 8, 2021 18:04
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Dalmuti posted:i keep getting failed matchmaking errors when i start the client up. anyone know whats up with that? Did you check the dates the beta is available?
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Aug 8, 2021 18:18
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Senethro posted:Anyone worked out how the cards work? The #1 starter slot seems like a good position for the Knife. Supposedly a dev said something about the #1-#5 slots? The card system is very dumb. Like it’s an OK system, but it literally just gives you cards in the order you put them in your deck. It doesn’t shuffle or anything. So your first card you get automatically, and then you can choose from your next 5 cards. You should probably play the first game on the easiest difficulty and then build a deck after.
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Aug 8, 2021 18:21
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I've played an hour or two of the open beta, and while the core gampeplay mechanics/loop are a pretty good modern version of L4D, and that's a good thing, there are two big problems: One, which is less of a big deal, is that the versus is just wrong all over. The special infected have too many hit points and the levels are last-stand arenas, both of which completly remove the delicate timing and coordination you'd seen in the original, wherein the survivors would try to move as quickly as possible through a level while still avoiding precarious situations that might let the infected catch them off balance. In the original, the survivors feel invincible up until a series of compounding mistakes collaspe the whole run into chaos. In contrast, in Back 4 Blood the special infected are encouraged to just wade in and start swinging because 1) they have way too much health and 2) there's no need to catch the surviors at the right point of traveling through a level. So, I'm not a fan of the vs at all, but that's not really a big deal because it was never the focus of the game. On the other hand.. The second problem is a much bigger deal and is probably going to put an upper cap on how much I like this game: the narrative of the level design is poor. It's hard for me to express what exactly is going wrong here, but in L4D there's a strongly realized narrative of what you're doing, for example getting to the rooftop of mercy hopsital or escapting a burning hotel to reach a mall. The l4d levels set up the narrative goal right at the start, the characters talk about it frequently, and every level is clearly bringing you closer and closer to that goal. I don't get any of that from Back 4 Blood; I started up the first level and I didn't know where I was, where I was going, or how close I was to being there. There's a feeling of real climax that L4D achieves that is a real part of the climaxes of each level and especially the finale, and that's much less succesfully executed here. Oh, there's also something lacking in the musical hits; I don't feel the threat of a horde or "special event" like I did in the originals, and the safe room stinger, with the guitar riff and the jubilant NPC chatter, is lacking as well. So, I dunno, I'm still interresting in playing more, but I'm not head over heels so far, this game just has a lot less style than the originals.
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Aug 8, 2021 19:18
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That church level is some horse poo poo, I cannot believe someone played this finale and thought it was a good idea
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Aug 8, 2021 20:56
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Operant posted:That church level is some horse poo poo, I cannot believe someone played this finale and thought it was a good idea The church level with the fog modifier is insanely bullshit because the bloom makes it impossible to see anything
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Aug 8, 2021 21:13
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The movement and shooting feel really floaty and unsatisfying. Maybe the instant acceleration to maximum move speed feels less weird on a controller?
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Aug 8, 2021 21:15
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Yerok posted:The movement and shooting feel really floaty and unsatisfying. Maybe the instant acceleration to maximum move speed feels less weird on a controller? you can try playing around with Mouse Smoothing on/off. I don't think it's unsatisfying per se, but it is a little floaty. Thats also why I absolutely hate scopes in this game and find them actively detrimental as attachments because there's also a floaty-delay in pulling them up and down. Guns that have Iron Sights/Red Dot or can work as hip fire seem the most effective.
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Aug 8, 2021 21:24
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Operant posted:That church level is some horse poo poo, I cannot believe someone played this finale and thought it was a good idea It owns
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Aug 8, 2021 21:52
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Glagha posted:Some of the hot takes on this game in this thread are beyond embarrassing What's the cold take.
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Aug 8, 2021 22:05
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Kernel Monsoon posted:I can't believe this doesn't have campaign versus, that's such a bummer. Apart from general instability and constant connection drops, It was scratching that L4D itch somewhat. I cannot overlook them tying themselves to Left 4 Dead so heavily in the marketing and not even carrying over the best mode in the game though. Shameless! i cant imagine spending more than like 4 hours in a l4d style game without campaign versus
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Aug 8, 2021 22:41
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The card that turns your melee into a knife is basically an insta-pick and completely invalidates the half dozen melee weapons they've designed. Kind of a weird choice. I can swing my melee weapon 2 or 3 times to kill a zombie, or I can press my melee button to 1 hit kill them instantly.
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Aug 8, 2021 22:47
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Ive found I value having the push back more than the instant kill a single zombie. The default melee does knock back a few zombies in a small arc in front of you like l4d, though it seems a tad narrower here, and on harder difficulties that can be vital to minimizing zombie chip damage, at least for my playstyle. I also think the item rarity system kinda sucks for the melee weapons and also there's a pretty narrow pool of them right now, it feels like they need a few more to kinda fill some gaps in swing speed vs. damage output a bit. thewizardofshoe fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Aug 8, 2021 |
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Aug 8, 2021 23:05
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It owns that you cannot swap attachents from weapons to new weapons you find on the ground.
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Aug 8, 2021 23:22
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Verviticus posted:i cant imagine spending more than like 4 hours in a l4d style game without campaign versus I have hundreds of hours in these sorts of games. VT doesn't even have vs.
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Aug 8, 2021 23:45
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Skyarb posted:It owns that you cannot swap attachents from weapons to new weapons you find on the ground. you can but you gotta fiddle with buying a new/temp one, swapping that to the ground, then swapping to the other weapon and swapping it in. it's messy and with how clunky the ui/item system is, not worth the effort. on one hand letting you pull them out would be nice and would make buying them a lot more viable or interesting and more ability to build out a gun; but it would also heavily gently caress with the pacing of the game with everyone going into their inventory constantly trying to do Attachment Tetris and spend minutes deciding on if this attachment is slightly better or not.
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Aug 9, 2021 00:24
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Xaris posted:you can but you gotta fiddle with buying a new/temp one, swapping that to the ground, then swapping to the other weapon and swapping it in. it's messy and with how clunky the ui/item system is, not worth the effort. How does this work when you are just out in the map and find a gun you want to put your attachments on? Oh it doesn't. Also this is a solved prolem, look at apex. If you find a gun on teh ground adn teh attachments on your gun map to it, it automatially swaps (and you can make it automatically take the best attachment if there are two)
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Aug 9, 2021 01:39
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Can they not use the old versus mode due to a patent or something, I don't understand how this oversight happened. It's baffling.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:16
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We have moved passed such antiquated design decisions that made Left 4 Dead our most successful game in the first place, we are doing our own brand new thing now! But don't worry we still made it like Left 4 Dead so people will actually buy it, unlike Evolved, please don't remember how badly that game was bungled. That'll be 60 dollars please.
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Aug 9, 2021 04:23
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Don't forget the $30 Day 1 Season Pass with levels, characters, and more Special Infected!
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Aug 9, 2021 05:45
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RBX posted:Can they not use the old versus mode due to a patent or something, I don't understand how this oversight happened. It's baffling. They claim it's about not just copying the old games and instead trying to move forward, which is pretty  considering how the PvE turned out. But in practice it seems most likely that it's a desperate measure to save work, since it'd be much more effort to balance the maps for PvP than it is to balance them solely for PvE.
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Aug 9, 2021 09:29
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Not every game needs a L4D-style versus mode. The reason it's cool in the original series is that the game itself isn't particularly hard. Every special infected has counterplay, and so four people with solid game knowledge won't really have any problems just running through the campaign. The game doesn't even try to program the AI in a way where they will really exploit the special infected abilities to the fullest degree, and instead they just let players do it. Player infected will do all sorts of cheese poo poo like running survivors off the map, but if that happens to you, you know, whatever. You get progress just for continuing, so you make it as far as you can, and if you die, whatever, you still get to go onto the next map. I can see why the versus mode in this game is the way it is. The game would be completely unwinnable because the special infected are just super tanky regular zombies. All you'd have to do is stand behind a door and wait for the survivors to run in and you one-shot club all of them to death. It'd be totally impossible to play against because of the way they've designed the specials where they're all not only massively tanky but also super damaging. There would be no counterplay at all if all four specials charged you at once. Buuuuuuuuuuuut, without the versus mode, you don't get to play the version of the game where you get to move on with the level even if you die, meaning dying in the gauntlet of each stage, usually placed at the end, means you have to redo the whole level again, which sucks! This game also takes the opposite side of L4D where the game is really hard and so playing slow and carefully is really important, and having to re-do levels with this playstyle is really draining. This is exactly the sort of game where I'd like a version of the "just get as far as you can" gameplay of the Versus mode from the first game, but they've designed themselves into a corner where they can't do that because the specials are way too overtuned RazzleDazzleHour fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 09:52
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They could have designed more interesting special zombies than just tanky regular zombies and included the mode though. It's such a weird thing to leave out.
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Aug 9, 2021 10:44
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Yeah the special zombies are lazy. Remember hearing a boomer and knowing that you can't just shoot everything anymore, you had to actually check corners? Can't do that now. Can't even introduce it, the game doesn't have a shove mechanic. Melee weapons are also basically lovely. The fire axe is the only viable one and with trauma damage stacking up as quickly as it does, you don't really want to use a lot of melee.
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Aug 9, 2021 11:34
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Can anyone tell me where the "no ads but better hipfire" card is? I'm only on the first trio of card lines after the introductory one and I don't see it yet. Also, are the locked PCs locked behind campaign progress or is that the aforementioned DLC?? Edit: As far as the game itself goes I think the experience my friend had last night sums it up: We'd played through a few maps on Easy and decided we were ready to try Normal, once we got to the map where you have to run across the bridge. So we get to the bridge, we start a mad sprint, and a bruiser appears in our path. People are screaming on the mic, the bruiser is applying knockback on the bridge and in the chaos I'm sent over the edge. Two people go the Thunder Gun route and leave me to die, which was maybe smart because the fourth guy who stayd died. But, the horde is still hot on the heels of the last two and they get dragged down in the ferry. As the screen fades out to the You Lose splash, my friend cackles on mic and says "they still got it". Jack B Nimble fucked around with this message at 12:33 on Aug 9, 2021 |
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Aug 9, 2021 12:28
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Played for awhile with my group of friends who have been longing for left4dead 3 for years and they have the same complaints, the specials don't have any personality and are just bullet sponges and they throw too many duplicates at once at you at times (looking at you crushers) For the level design I can't tell if they are trying to homage left4dead or just ran out of new ideas so they copied setpieces straight over, the level design also felt much more narrow and tight corridor compared to l4d's large sprawling levels and finale areas which made the bullet sponge specials more annoying to deal with since you'd often have a crusher hiding it's weakpoint going down a long hallway and you had to just back up the entire way to deal with it. I sorta see what they wanted to do with the Ogre but without a "ledge of no return" there is no incentive to get chased by it, my friends found it most effective to just have one person trigger the ogre and everyone else shoot it from the safehouse, then later everyone just runs back through the door and shoots it's arm trying to grab you, it just felt like cheesing it each time and it was a bullet sponge. The gun levels feel bad and probably contribute to the specials feeling like bullet sponges, you find the right level gun and they melt, or RNG hands you low level weapons over and over even in the later levels and you are just kinda screwed, plus it adds a lot of time standing around and comparing attachment numbers and effects compared to just finding a tier 2 gun in L4D to replace your tier 1 starter primary weapons, the bullet sponginess and the game design encouraging people not to all use the same ammo type the entire game also means you can easily run into ammo shortages, better hope your team likes different guns. Also evil birds and bird callouts are dumb, they should of made up some infested tumors to avoid alerting instead. The game needs a lot more polish before it's ready for release in my (overly long) option.
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Aug 9, 2021 13:55
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I think I would actually like the game a lot more if they flat removed special infected. Which is probably a bad sign
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Aug 9, 2021 14:15
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The low regular zombie density and lack of variety in the models is noticeable and how you are never quite sure if you are hitting a zombie that died already because there is no damage to the zombie model when they get hit unless it's a headshot. It's like it was released a few years before l4d2 because it's a downgrade in most aspects.
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Aug 9, 2021 14:38
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There only seems to be low level zombie density if you play on the lowest difficulty. There are a ton of zombies on the second difficulty.
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Aug 9, 2021 17:35
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I want to like it but I couldn't even play it. I kept getting this stutter or lag whenever I looked around with my mouse. I tried updating drivers and turning all settings down to minimum, but nothing worked. 
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Aug 9, 2021 18:41
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municipal shrimp posted:There only seems to be low level zombie density if you play on the lowest difficulty. There are a ton of zombies on the second difficulty. Yeah Zombie density is fine on second or third difficulty. the game would be better if there weren't specials; at least the way they've implemented them thus far and unlikely to change given there was virtually zero change from the alpha. all the complaints about constant bullet-sponge bruisers being thrown at you constantly, poor visual and audio cues, lack of distinct purpose, bile spewers constantly nailing it across the map and hitting you through walls, etc haven't even budged the slightest. i guess they do throw a little less at you Ra Ra Rasputin posted:lack of variety in the models is noticeable and how you are never quite sure if you are hitting a zombie that died already because there is no damage to the zombie model when they get hit unless it's a headshot.
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Aug 9, 2021 22:44
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I think the most surprising moment of the game so far is when Mom brags about committing rape back in the day. Not terribly sure who thought that was a good line to toss in the game in this day and age.
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Aug 9, 2021 23:32
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