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And I made a gang tag and everything. Fine print: this isn't uploaded to SA's servers yet. The first person to install it will need to buy it as their avatar; then they can use it as a tag in their title. I just think it woulda been cool if we'd gotten the symmetry to work.  Jerks. Quackles fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 15:37
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Quackles posted:And I made a gang tag and everything. I mean, this is still technically accurate for all five houses 
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Oct 20, 2021 15:46
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Bellmaker posted:I mean, this is still technically accurate for all five houses I'm gonna replay what I said in DMs to another of your house members: quote:I'm vaguely miffed because: So yeah. See ya.
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Oct 20, 2021 15:47
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Quackles posted:I'm gonna replay what I said in DMs to another of your house members: For what it's worth our calculations came down to that if Gambol pulled any funny business at all with the alliance no one would be able to outcrown them, so going this route was our best option with whatever option Gambol chose. We were genuinely surprised Gambol stuck with the plan. Bellmaker fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 15:56
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What would the general consensus itt be about making the individual Houses' discords public?
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Oct 20, 2021 15:58
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I looked in the TTS workshop for this mod but it looks like it's been taken down. I wanted to see which dilemma would have gotten Pinchay its narrative achievement that we were denied (attain immortality or something like that). TIG, do you have the ability to find that dilemma?
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Oct 20, 2021 16:01
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Veryslightlymad posted:Surprised to see that sentiment from Pinchay. From my view as an external spectator, Lethe was the only team that let you die on your feet, with honor. Well, there's a matter of context to consider. House Daucus had this great idea that would have been mutually beneficial to all parties, allowing 4/5 houses to tie for first. House Lethe choosing Betray in this King's Dilemma when everyone else was willing to choose Ally is...yeah, you can forgive me for feeling a little bummed. I didn't even have a stake in it. House Pinchay was going to be last no matter what happened. I just wanted to see everyone else win.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:02
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Phelddagrif posted:I looked in the TTS workshop for this mod but it looks like it's been taken down. I wanted to see which dilemma would have gotten Pinchay its narrative achievement that we were denied (attain immortality or something like that). TIG, do you have the ability to find that dilemma? "Attain Immortality" sure sounds like Celestina's storyline I'd really like to see where that storyline goes if we let the King do the ritual and where Hysadora's goes if we don't bring her to court. Bellmaker fucked around with this message at 16:09 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 16:06
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Bellmaker posted:For what it's worth our calculations came down to that if Gambol pulled any funny business at all with the alliance no one would be able to outcrown them, so going this route was our best option with whatever option Gambol chose. [3] We would have still won.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:07
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Omobono posted:[3] We would have still won. Better. 
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Oct 20, 2021 16:08
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That Italian Guy posted:What would the general consensus itt be about making the individual Houses' discords public? I had always assumed that they would be at the end so I say do it.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:20
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Sighence posted:I had always assumed that they would be at the end so I say do it. I agree.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:21
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Bellmaker posted:For what it's worth our calculations came down to that if Gambol pulled any funny business at all with the alliance no one would be able to outcrown them, so going this route was our best option with whatever option Gambol chose. Ha, my paranoid mind had me coming up with you and gambol both going full betray together.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:22
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Sighence posted:Ha, my paranoid mind had me coming up with you and gambol both going full betray together.   It was not unfounded (those posts are before Quackles' proposal, you really can't say no to that)
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Oct 20, 2021 16:26
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I would like to see what the immortality story card would had looked like. We had used all our power about 2 decisions before that so we didn't have a chance getting our king immortal
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Oct 20, 2021 17:16
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Phelddagrif posted:I looked in the TTS workshop for this mod but it looks like it's been taken down. I wanted to see which dilemma would have gotten Pinchay its narrative achievement that we were denied (attain immortality or something like that). TIG, do you have the ability to find that dilemma? Slaan posted:I would like to see what the immortality story card would had looked like. We had used all our power about 2 decisions before that so we didn't have a chance getting our king immortal Btw, speaking of hard to abtain cheevos in this specific game, this was Cyfoeth's incomplete one: 
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Oct 20, 2021 17:31
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A review: This felt like a ten month long Mario Party game, with all the good and bad that carries. The dominant strategy is "bring down the current leader" which is hard to balance with longer-term goals, and not in an enjoyable way. Some major flaws: there was no really great reading into cards to theorize the effects behind them, because they spelled out most of them, especially stickers, most critically the negative stickers, because with very rare exception that dictated the decision. I used a lot of context at a few points to figure out whether certain cards were part of the storyline, and I would have loved to try that at a smaller scale with an individual card. If there was one change I'd make to the game, it would be removing the known consequences on the front of cards. They did a pretty good job of using subtext and they needed to trust themselves and their players to use that information. Prestige and crave being mechanically nearly identical was disappointing, especially as if the king abdicates the last place house gets more total points than the middle of the pack. It feels like an earlier playtest iteration had the scoring be (winning end faction - losing end faction) and they never did a full balance pass after they changed that - and I'd question that change too but they made an otherwise solid game that there has to be a good reason I'm missing, I'd just love to know what it is. Finally a 12-player mode would be absolutely wonderful. Good luck logistically, I know, but it would lean into the Mario party style chaos. The manual made it seem like this was considered as well and abandoned in favor of "other people playing other houses can swap in between sessions" which sounds as half-baked as the above points. The core game was really great and I wish I could express that better. It's just that every mechanic has apparently obvious fixes that ten months of seeing makes it harder to look past.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:41
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Sighence posted:A review: This sums up some of my experience from the spectator seat, too. The game did earn a sequel, and I'm fascinated to one day see what that turns out like, and if they did more to make it more satisfying of an experience. But for King's dilemma, the real fun seemed to be the journey, and not the destination. So hey, I hope y'all had fun. I certainly did, despite being a bit hard on the ending. I think there's a lot of pretty drat good game in here; it just stumbled at points.
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Oct 20, 2021 17:57
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Abdication making everyone but last place score less is an intended and needed part of end of kingdom scoring. It allows people that are having a bad reign (reminder: a game is a single king/queen) to still have powerful influence that helps them in the campaign. My changes would be: Agreed on no stickers warning on the dilemmas. They're a complete warper for any kind of decision. Tone down the negative stickers' disadvantage to go with the above. -1 power but +2/+3 gold at reign start. White stickers can stay +1 power. Positive and negative open agendas rebalanced, again because black stickers are really too much of a ball and chain. Negative agendas also give end of kingdom points instead of subtracting them, BUT they still work against positive agendas. If one House would score from both positive open agendas and negative open agendas, they score only the difference. (Example: an house has positive knowledge and negative wealth, knowledge is second and wealth is last, they score a net of 2 points from open agendas) Hidden stickers would also tone down what I think is the dominant strategy, that is pass and gather power to bide one's time until a story or sticker dilemma comes out. Now there's zero warnings on which are the important dilemmas one ought to splurge on. E: also I didn't say anything during the thread but aren't stickers supposed to expire after three reigns as per the rules? I'd still do the above changes but I think we played them a bit too powerful. Omobono fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 18:18
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Omobono posted:E: also I didn't say anything during the thread but aren't stickers supposed to expire after three reigns as per the rules? I'd still do the above changes but I think we played them a bit too powerful. This was my read of the rules as well, but then effects just kept going. By the time I realized exactly what was happening, too much time had passed to bring it up. The one major change I wish had been made would have been some form of catch-up mechanic for the Cohesion/Dissent track. It would have messed up some of the story-line and cheapened the game long efforts at choosing 'right', so I know why it wasn't done. But there was basically no chance for the Black Dawn to win in the end, which made the decision of which side to support a non-decision at the end game. It would probably have taken at least a 3 house alliance to sway things, and even one of those turning on the others would have scuttled it all. We at House Lethe actually considered sending out feelers to get people to go that way, but especially after The Deal was proposed knew that it was a lost cause. I think end game would have been much more wheeling and dealing if there wasn't an obvious winner.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:55
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SporkChan posted:It would probably have taken at least a 3 house alliance to sway things, and even one of those turning on the others would have scuttled it all. We at House Lethe actually considered sending out feelers to get people to go that way, but especially after The Deal was proposed knew that it was a lost cause. We at Gambol gamed this scenario before Quackles's offer and went lolnope not happening we're dead if we turn betrayers. E1: the only realistic alliance to make the Dawn win was Lethe/Gambol/Pinchay because lol at Cyfoeth or Daucus going that narrative route. That's not how they played their houses. With that constraint, such an alliance would be inherently unworkable because we would have won the campaign so why wouldn't Lethe backstab us to remove the top competitor. E2: although I liked that the Loyalists had it in the bag. We did everything* right during the decades and centuries of governing, a truly enlightened, good and reasonably moral governance, the curbstomp was our reward *something Omobono fucked around with this message at 19:07 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 18:59
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Omobono posted:E: also I didn't say anything during the thread but aren't stickers supposed to expire after three reigns as per the rules? I'd still do the above changes but I think we played them a bit too powerful. (unless you play "sane legacy" mode, as with most legacy games).
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Oct 20, 2021 19:04
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Omobono posted:Hidden stickers would also tone down what I think is the dominant strategy, that is pass and gather power to bide one's time until a story or sticker dilemma comes out. Now there's zero warnings on which are the important dilemmas one ought to splurge on. I suspect when you’re doing poker bidding it’s easier to go tentatively in in something and back down if the other side goes in heavily. Blind bidding, like we had, favors dealmaking during the voting phase, to lock down votes but also as shows of force or to dominate the conversation. That’s why we were so loud so often. quote:E: also I didn't say anything during the thread but aren't stickers supposed to expire after three reigns as per the rules? I'd still do the above changes but I think we played them a bit too powerful. They don’t expire. Just, as they get older they’re more likely to get overwritten. Kinda sucks if you get a negative sticker in the rightmost column!
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Oct 20, 2021 19:06
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Yeah, I said it in the Pinchay chat, but you'd generally have more houses ante-ing in with a roundtable vote instead of just backing out the instant any large group formed. The forum aspect favored strong-arm tactics and dramatic plays instead of folks casually playing back and forth with their power. Not really my cup of tea. If anyone wants to run the game again, I'd recommend doing it live in Tabletop Sim or an equivalent with a smaller pool of players, probably even one per house. The forum aspect is good for all the reading that's involved, but I think it was a net negative overall.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:25
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Honestly, doing this game as a LARP would probably be super engaging. Have a mechanism for both binding official deals and nonbinding backroom deals. You might need bouncers, though. This game really is like Mario Party in some ways, and the capability to generate acrimony is one of them.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:36
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Quackles posted:Honestly, doing this game as a LARP would probably be super engaging. Have a mechanism for both binding official deals and nonbinding backroom deals. Games of Thrones Diplomacy. Anyways, House screens. Here's ours:  I really want to see Lethe's, even if they didn't know poo poo about the Mawther.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:38
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Yeah it felt super hard to do anything except go all in or pass from the format. Browbeat others into going along with you using big coin/power numbers or don't bother. I'm sure the negotiations are a lot more fluid in person
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Oct 20, 2021 19:39
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Omobono posted:Games of Thrones Diplomacy. as you wish:  e: We thought Map was our story questline from the very beginning (can't destroy heretical ancient knowledge unless we find it first!), but Mawther and Totally-Not-A-Witch Hysadora showing up put some doubts in our minds. Once we reached the Golden Temple we were 95% sure that was where we needed to focus. We did not think that the heretical ancient knowledge would be
Bellmaker fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 19:55
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Since we're showing some house panels post-game It was pretty clear from about the 2nd or 3rd reign that we were never going to get our second achievement, which was a shame since that power would have been so cool and changed the dynamics of the power pot as a reign progressed. Otherwise, our rather quickly unlocked achievements meant we got to choose solely based on our hidden agenda or our preferred outcome solely for that dilemma instead of having to consider suboptimal scoring sliders to allow for achievements. This was good because other than the first few reigns we were usually picking getting last pull on Hidden Agendas and so had to work with what we were dealt, literally. Having our storyline come up first and go our way was also a wonderful bonus, to say we would have never forgiven House Gambol if they'd actually sabotaged the royal wedding is an understatement. It was quite nice being able to be direct and honest with negotiations most of the time since we honestly didn't have much in the way of ulterior motives for most of the game, we got to play as being accommodating and loyal to the crown and that fits nicely with how we were likely supposed to play. scavy131 fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 20:54
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Speaking of the whole "backstab vs everyone winning" perspective, here's my take: Mathematics and game breakery is boring, backstabs are good and cool. More seriously though, I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I always considered this a narrative experience first and a point collecting game second. With that in mind, personally, the idea of five noble houses that have struggled for power for almost twenty generations suddenly putting their differences aside after defeating the betrayers makes no narrative sense at all. Especially when playing the house of vengeful religious fanatics whose main ideals had been sidelined since forever as the rest of the council eagerly released every possible scrap of possibly heretical knowledge to the public every chance they got. So yeah, my desire to push for a betrayal in the end was more due to narrative reasons than wanting to win the game. The idea of the houses somehow reaching an eternal peace makes a lot less sense and is (in my opinion) a lot less interesting than one house making a play for ultimate power when the choice is given. And, at least for me, the story is more important than the scoresheet in the end. And yeah, as mentioned, we fully expected Gambol to go for the stab based on that same logic. I was even prepared with a variant of the fable that That Italian Guy used, only with the ending being changed to "The snake looked up at her and said, "Lady, you knew I was a navigator poet when you first picked me up." But most importantly: Happy birthday Quackles!  I hope our backstabbing didn't ruin it for you 
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Oct 20, 2021 21:29
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Covski posted:More seriously though, I'm a roleplayer at heart, and I always considered this a narrative experience first and a point collecting game second. With that in mind, personally, the idea of five noble houses that have struggled for power for almost twenty generations suddenly putting their differences aside after defeating the betrayers makes no narrative sense at all. I mean, from a narrative standpoint, the joint win really appealed to me. The idea that, yes, we’ll feud and fight like the Montagues and Capulets, but when the chips are really down, we’ll rally in defense of the kingdom we help run, even if it’s only by accident during our pursuit of personal power. The math lining up was just a cool bonus, and a way to (try to) get everyone onboard. quote:So yeah, my desire to push for a betrayal in the end was more due to narrative reasons than wanting to win the game. The idea of the houses somehow reaching an eternal peace makes a lot less sense and is (in my opinion) a lot less interesting than one house making a play for ultimate power when the choice is given. And, at least for me, the story is more important than the scoresheet in the end. Fun fact: I almost said to you in the thread a few times, during the last few reigns, something like: “At this rate, it looks like House Lethe can’t win in the amount of time left. So, you should focus on helping us, your loyal allies, win instead.“ I decided not to, each time, on grounds it was impolitic. But now I’m wondering what would have happened if I had… quote:And yeah, as mentioned, we fully expected Gambol to go for the stab based on that same logic. I was even prepared with a variant of the fable that That Italian Guy used, only with the ending being changed to "The snake looked up at her and said, "Lady, you knew I was a navigator poet when you first picked me up." Isn’t it ironic, don’t you think? quote:But most importantly: Happy birthday Quackles! Thank you! I’m doing lovely. My take is honestly that with the Black Dawn gone, the Great Houses will go back to going at one another, so we’ll get someone on the throne in the end. Before our King or Queen ends up deciding in favor of some other Great House’s candidate as their successor, and the adventure continues… 
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Oct 20, 2021 22:00
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Covski posted:Mathematics and game breakery is boring, backstabs are good and cool. This I agree with; while I was playing it felt like most discussions were about the metagame (is this a card I get to sign if I win?) and less about the story the cards were telling. It was around the time that we learned that some of the players were using the card ID's to guide their decisions, that I lost interest. Still, TIG put in a lot of effort to run this and most people had fun, and I applaud Lethe for their victory.
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Oct 20, 2021 22:14
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Phelddagrif posted:It was around the time that we learned that some of the players were using the card ID's to guide their decisions, that I lost interest. Note to TIG: the stickers have ID numbers on them too 
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Oct 20, 2021 22:16
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Yeah, I can sorta see it Lethe's way. Rather than this being a big happily ever after, instead the kingdom just survives through a crisis and life continues as usual, with all the backstabbery that entails. Feels like we still missed out on something cool, but that's life, I guess. Besides, considering this kingdom's tendency towards spending money, Lethe's king is going the way of all kings eventually: straight into the dumpster with all the Blythes.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:17
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Quackles posted:I mean, from a narrative standpoint, the joint win really appealed to me. The idea that, yes, we’ll feud and fight like the Montagues and Capulets, but when the chips are really down, we’ll rally in defense of the kingdom we help run, even if it’s only by accident during our pursuit of personal power. I mean, I would have definitely agreed had I been playing as a different house, and had the early game had played out differently. As it was, we spent most of the game as a bitter underdog (roleplaying wise, us as players had a lot of fun) whose agenda of "no knowledge ever" never came out on top in a single dilemma ever. Given that general consensus a "we'll all get along" outcome was never on the card for house Lethe, narratively speaking. After all, who wouldn't want to shape the future of Ankist in their own image after the cataclysm, especially if everyone else is working towards a completely different goal? So rest assured: This was in no way a play just to spite the other players, but rather making a play for an outcome that was optimal for the house in-setting. Phelddagrif posted:This I agree with; while I was playing it felt like most discussions were about the metagame (is this a card I get to sign if I win?) and less about the story the cards were telling. It was around the time that we learned that some of the players were using the card ID's to guide their decisions, that I lost interest. Still, TIG put in a lot of effort to run this and most people had fun, and I applaud Lethe for their victory. Yeah, I definitely agree with this, and this is part of why I strongly supported the the Lethe-stab decision. If I have any complaints at all about the format (and this is in no way directed at TIG, I'm not sure it could have been done better it this was a great LP to be a part of!), it is that there were too few backstabs possible, and too reducible to a numbers game. Another reason why I don't feel too bad about backstabbing the numbers lobby for the win: You signed up for a game with both "Diplomacy" and "Game of Thrones" in the title, what did you expect?
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Oct 20, 2021 23:25
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Blastinus posted:Besides, considering this kingdom's tendency towards spending money, Lethe's king is going the way of all kings eventually: straight into the dumpster with all the Blythes. Nuh-uh, all money is to be replaced with Faith Points, a sort of social credit system based on how well you follow the Mother's teachings.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:26
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I think you might be missing the Dawn was quashed 180 cohesion to 5 dissent. Hardly a struggle that would leave Ankist's political structures in ruins to be rebuilt in the victor's image, the worst of it will be replacing all the outed infiltrators in the bureaucracy. House Lethe's dominance will last two kings, three top, before it's back to business as usual.
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Oct 20, 2021 23:41
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The real question is if the Lethe kings will read the Book of Fourth Wall Breaks. Good game, all!
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Oct 21, 2021 00:02
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Oh hey, it's us Getting our achievements was hell in a bucket. I'm just glad we did by the end.  Our narrative achievement was really confusing, though. We were even unsure which way to do the final card!
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Oct 21, 2021 03:10
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 King Orm Lethe, in all his Ozymandian splendor. I will not add the portrait to the OP, to prevent spoilers for future readers, but I've added it to the last post of the Campaign! I've now made all the discord channels visible by everyone on Discord! You won't be able to post in them if they're not your House's, but you'll be able to read and add emoticons/reactions to the existing posts. Please let me know if I've messed up something! Also, if anyone is going through the thread for any reason, I would be thankful if they can collect the fan art that has been posted, so that I can add it to the OP. I'll try to get this thread archived - this means the OP will look a bit wonky for a while since the updates in the table of content have to be formatted in a specific way (one per line) for it to work. That Italian Guy fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Oct 21, 2021 |
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Oct 21, 2021 10:56
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