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Bongo Bill posted:The quoted post used sarcasm.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:45
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Orbs posted:Not very effectively if so.
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Apr 1, 2024 17:46
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yeah Ohtori was shitposting. though that take on the Genesis verse is a real thing, you'll hear anti-environmentalism types say that "man shall have dominion" etc means humans are the most important creatures on Earth, made in God's image, and we can do whatever we want with the rest of Creation because it's our dominion. also there's the whole "Second Coming is any day now, who gives a poo poo about the environment, we need to prepare for the Rapture" thing too. me personally I just try to apply Christ's teachings on how we should treat people to how we interact with other living things and nature. afaik the Bible itself doesn't really have a land ethic as we think about it now (maybe this exists in Oral Torah or other Jewish teachings). it's one of those examples where people in Biblical times were in a different cultural milieu and have different perspectives from us. a lot of environmental degradation is a result of industrialized society and also modern scientific tools to be able to characterize and understand that damage. e: shortly I'll track down one of my favorite bits in Sand County Almanac. it's not particularly religious but it is very poetic and I like it a lot
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Apr 1, 2024 17:59
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I don't think it's much of a stretch to interpret a fair number of commandments regarding agriculture in the Torah as being, in part, about not completely using up the land. Now if Hashem had commanded them to plant legumes and clover in one-third of their fields every year, then we'd have some interesting discussions.
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Apr 1, 2024 19:00
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Pellisworth posted:. afaik the Bible itself doesn't really have a land ethic as we think about it now (maybe this exists in Oral Torah or other Jewish teachings). For a sufficiently precise definition of "as we think of it now" that's true, but: Nessus posted:I don't think it's much of a stretch to interpret a fair number of commandments regarding agriculture in the Torah as being, in part, about not completely using up the land. This is absolutely true. There's an important principle called the Shmita ("release") year - every seven years, the land of Israel gets a break from sowing and plowing. In this way it spends 1/7th of its time resting in the Sabbath just like people and animal. And most debt is cancelled. The concept is first introduced in Exodus and repeated with new dimensions in each subsequent book of the Torah. Other agricultural laws speak less to the Torah's sense of mercy-justice and more to its strong sense of boundaries and propriety, like a picky-eater toddler who hates to see food touch, or like George Costanza who wants to keep his social worlds from colliding. Just like you shan't crossbreed animals or mix wool and linen in one garment, you also shan't mix seeds together to create a mixture of crops in the same soil (this law only applies to Israeli soil). And vegetable/grain crops must be placed a certain distance from vineyards or fruit trees (these laws apply to all soil). This precludes forms of intercropping/companion planting like the "three sisters" Native American practice where corn, beans, and squash are intermingled so they can nurture each other. But I'm not sure anyone in ancient Israel/Canaan was doing that stuff anyway; it'd be interesting to learn either way. Civilized Fishbot fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Apr 1, 2024 |
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Apr 1, 2024 20:10
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I don't think there was much intercropping back in the day at all, other than the thing where peasants sharing the land would have really long strips for their share, rather than what we kind of imagine which is a vaguely square piece of land. But I think that was medieval Europe. Frankly I have no idea how they farmed at all, although presumably we can make inferences from what the Torah forbids
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Apr 1, 2024 20:53
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I've been shifting between Buddhism and Daoism recently in light of some personal tragedies and a desire to reconcile myself. Unfortunately, as a result of a youth of reddit atheism and a whole lifetime of being a white westerner, I'm finding it hard to engage with the written texts in a useful way. The ideas and concepts seem right up my alley when presented on YouTube or Wikipedia, but that feels very shallow. Can anyone recommend ways and techniques to better grapple with works like the Tao Te Ching?
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Apr 1, 2024 21:16
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OscarDiggs posted:I've been shifting between Buddhism and Daoism recently in light of some personal tragedies and a desire to reconcile myself. i am not a buddhist or daoist, but this is a very blanket-applicable suggestion: religion is better under supervision and in community.
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Apr 1, 2024 21:49
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I would say that the general way to approach works like that is that they aren't grasped- it's more like a current of water washing away debris in a creek. We experience that with the body, emotions, thoughts, etc while reading the text. The mind forms connections while reading automatically if we let it. Maybe try to gently bring the breath into awareness while reading, to loosen up cognitive habits that are alienated from the rest of our experience. If that is unsettling, don't force it. If reading it isn't helpful, I would set the text aside for a while. I'm sorry to hear about your personal situation. I think that your intuition about works like that being a vehicle towards finding acceptance and happiness is accurate. I'm not super knowledgeable about Daoism, but have some exposure through East Asian Buddhism, and there's of course a lot of overlap in fundamental teachings. Ohtori Akio posted:i am not a buddhist or daoist, but this is a very blanket-applicable suggestion: religion is better under supervision and in community.
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Apr 1, 2024 22:01
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OscarDiggs posted:I've been shifting between Buddhism and Daoism recently in light of some personal tragedies and a desire to reconcile myself. Beyond that, dense texts like that are best read relatively slowly, like a chapter at a time, with breaks to reflect and process each chunk you read. It may still be difficult, but finding wisdom often is.
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Apr 2, 2024 02:36
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Neon Noodle posted:For some reason Judaism has one million tree holidays this is loving phenomenal 
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Apr 2, 2024 04:34
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I've finally made it through the biographical sketch of Plotinus. Now I have to read the biographical sketch of Porphyry! edit: Actually it's written by Porphyry about Plotinus. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Apr 2, 2024 |
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Apr 2, 2024 10:38
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 you got this
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Apr 2, 2024 12:20
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OscarDiggs posted:I've been shifting between Buddhism and Daoism recently in light of some personal tragedies and a desire to reconcile myself. Also, while you might be best served by finding a local sangha to visit and sit with now and again, this is pretty region-dependent in the US in particular. People in the buddhism thread can probably give more detailed answers.
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Apr 2, 2024 13:50
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Somwhere in the preface someone suggests that The One, The Intellect and The Soul are the absolutes of Plato, Aristotle and the Stoics respectively. It's also amusing to me that Plotinus was an enemy of the burgeoning Christian movement but also conceived divinity as three-in-one. Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 2, 2024 |
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Apr 2, 2024 15:37
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Same as any other true thing you can logic and investigate your way much farther than people realize. They obviously couldn't get 100% without revelation but you can and they did get way closer than most people imagine.
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Apr 3, 2024 02:44
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Triples show up a lot in all mythology, and slamming them all together is a bad idea imo. I will respond to all the thoughtful posts a few days back but I didn't want to interrupt the other chat that was going on prior.
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Apr 3, 2024 10:49
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I feel like Christians adopting the trinitarian model is related to why you will sometimes encounter people who go "actually Christians aren't TRUE monotheists"Gaius Marius posted:Same as any other true thing you can logic and investigate your way much farther than people realize. They obviously couldn't get 100% without revelation but you can and they did get way closer than most people imagine. Also I don't know much about the three sets of philosophy Squid names but Porphyry definitely felt he was communicating revelation when crafting his/Plotinus' treatises, I am a little surprised by your wording here. Surely some of those guys were also building their ontologies around personal revelations LITERALLY A BIRD fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Apr 3, 2024 |
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Apr 3, 2024 15:38
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LITERALLY A BIRD posted:I feel like Christians adopting the trinitarian model is related to why you will sometimes encounter people who go "actually Christians aren't TRUE monotheists"
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Apr 3, 2024 16:20
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I mean I can buy that it’s monotheism, in the same way Hindu beliefs are. It does seem weird as an outside observer, in a way that Jewish and Islamic theology are not
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Apr 3, 2024 16:23
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Neon Noodle posted:uh yeah Jews and Muslims both have major issues with Trinitarianism!!!! Trinitarianism results from the postulate that the Son is a co-equal with the Father. Jews and Muslims don't accept that postulate, so it's not part of their thinking. Nessus posted:I mean I can buy that it’s monotheism, in the same way Hindu beliefs are. It does seem weird as an outside observer, in a way that Jewish and Islamic theology are not
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Apr 3, 2024 16:25
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Funnily enough I always saw a family resemblance between The One and the Kabbalah notion of Ein Sof.
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Apr 3, 2024 16:54
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tbh trinitarian theology and all the christology stuff is the most confusing thing about christianity for me and im a big nerd. was Jesus was one person or two persons and fully divine vs. divine and human simultaneously? idk man. my head hurts trying to think about this and I'm not sure it matters that much for everyday worship
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Apr 3, 2024 19:01
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It seems to me like being divine and human simultaneously would just mean the divine parts cancel or at least smooth out the human parts for an inauthentic human experience but what do I know? As far as I know I've never been divine
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Apr 3, 2024 19:04
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Killingyouguy! posted:It seems to me like being divine and human simultaneously would just mean the divine parts cancel or at least smooth out the human parts for an inauthentic human experience but what do I know? As far as I know I've never been divine this is pretty much miathelitism, that there's two natures that come together in a single will (or so I understand)
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Apr 3, 2024 19:08
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imo the crucifixion requires jesus to have free, human will in order to matter. you can't separate christian theology from the sacred history and have it still make sense
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Apr 3, 2024 19:11
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Ohtori Akio posted:imo the crucifixion requires jesus to have free, human will in order to matter. you can't separate christian theology from the sacred history and have it still make sense
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Apr 3, 2024 19:19
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Nessus posted:My intuitive understanding of the situation was a sort of avatar deal, but apparently not. I suppose it mostly gets strange if Jesus was specifically also an omnipotent being at all times, though I understand that this is, to some extent, the ultimate underlying tension and mystery yeah applying an essentially vedic or dharmic lens to the jesus story will lead you away from mainstream christology. not that i understand it fully but like i think gaius marius phrases it, he was not a flesh mech puppeted by god the father.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:23
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There is some high christology theology where the fully human, fully God Jesus dies on the cross and that’s it for the Father and Son. Only the Holy Spirit after the cross. A Trinity that’s a procession Father -> Jesus -> Holy Spirit
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Apr 3, 2024 19:30
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Nessus posted:My intuitive understanding of the situation was a sort of avatar deal, but apparently not. I suppose it mostly gets strange if Jesus was specifically also an omnipotent being at all times, though I understand that this is, to some extent, the ultimate underlying tension and mystery Yeah, that's Docetism, one of the earlier non-orthodox christologies, and it leads to Jesus having not really died on the cross because God can't really die, which invalidates big chunks of Christian theology if taken to its theological conclusion. The little-o orthodox understanding of Jesus arises as much from reasoning out what various heresies would mean as it does with the biblical witness, which doesn't get down to that level of granular theology.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:33
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Ohtori Akio posted:he was not a flesh mech puppeted by god the father. I’ve had luck explaining it as Jesus is like Shinji not like Kaworu. But that’s a tad adoptionist.
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Apr 3, 2024 19:34
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much like gogeta is both goku and vegeta,
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Apr 3, 2024 19:36
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Ohtori Akio posted:yeah applying an essentially vedic or dharmic lens to the jesus story will lead you away from mainstream christology. not that i understand it fully but like i think gaius marius phrases it, he was not a flesh mech puppeted by god the father. (Well, more that Jesus wasn't a flesh mech puppeted by the Logos, but same difference.) But the traditional formula is: the Trinity is one God in three coeternal persons (or in Greek, hypostases); Jesus is one of those persons; and he has two natures, human and divine, with no mixture or absorption between the two. The basic point of Jesus' mission, for Orthodox, was to unite the two natures as a way to grant humanity access to his divinity. I do think it's meant to be at least a little counterintuitive, to avoid forcing omnipotence into too linear and mechanical a framework. We don't call it a Mystery--in the sense of "an experience outside our comprehension"--for nothing.
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Apr 3, 2024 20:01
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Ohtori Akio posted:much like gogeta is both goku and vegeta,
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Apr 3, 2024 20:03
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Ohtori Akio posted:yeah applying an essentially vedic or dharmic lens to the jesus story will lead you away from mainstream christology. not that i understand it fully but like i think gaius marius phrases it, he was not a flesh mech puppeted by god the father. Ironically enough the best understanding I think I’ve gotten of the idea of a sinner was from a Hazbin Hotel song
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Apr 3, 2024 20:10
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Bar Ran Dun are you super familiar with Eruigena? He seems like he's right up your alley, what with independently reinventing something that's basically Neoplatonism from reading Greek church works and all.Nessus posted:Right that’s just where my gut is so even if I appreciate a lot of Christian stuff it hits wrong So the fully human nature is in union with the fully divine throughout his life, but it's confused and hidden by the dirt of the world. It slowly becomes unveiled with painful effort, culminating in the moment in which there is not a trace of obscuration between the two. Which is when compassion meets fully with the realities of existence and what living things are like.
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Apr 3, 2024 20:15
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I mean that makes sense, but I’ve like very rarely heard talk about Jesus engaging in some kind of self discovery or something. It’s possible it just isn’t centered in modern discourse. I know the cute little theory that he went East and did some Buddhism though. 
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Apr 3, 2024 20:21
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Nessus posted:I mean that makes sense, but I’ve like very rarely heard talk about Jesus engaging in some kind of self discovery or something. It’s possible it just isn’t centered in modern discourse. I know the cute little theory that he went East and did some Buddhism though. In the story of raising Lazarus from the dead, something internally happens to Jesus when his friends Mary and Martha tell him that Lazarus died because Jesus didn't heal him. I interpret his weeping there as him realizing how much he had inadvertently hurt Mary and Martha and being genuinely contrite about it, which falls within self-discovery for me.
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Apr 3, 2024 20:24
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nice obelisk idiot posted:Bar Ran Dun are you super familiar with Eruigena? He seems like he's right up your alley, what with independently reinventing something that's basically Neoplatonism from reading Greek church works and all. I’m not specifically other than being generally aware of the name. It does seem like it be right up my alley. I don’t get to just dig into reading much anymore. My employment changed so I don’t spend so much time riding launch boats out to vessels or waiting on cargo ops to finish in the middle of the night. These days I’m mostly focusing on the question of fascism, why it happens, and what to do about it from a religious perspective. So I’m currently doing a close, slow, repeated, reading of The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness (keeping a similar reading of The Socialist Decision from a few years ago in mind). Eventually I’m going to post a thread about it in D&D. Niebuhr is never what I’m expecting going in because so often public figures who root their thinking in his ideas often get pretty far away from the source documents and what he actually had to say.
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Apr 3, 2024 20:51
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Personally I think that the psychoanalytic tradition has a lot to say about fascism and religion. Attachment trauma, death drive, divisions in the psychic apparatus between values and baseness- fascism offers a solution to these similarly to religion. However, it does so in a way that requires no vulnerability or healing, and in fact purges those things from its conception of life. It tries to smash the human subject down to an atom, in exactly the same way that religiously-motivated abuse does. But while there is obviously such a thing as wholesome religion, there can be no wholesome fascism. It's a light that comes from a sick star.
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Apr 3, 2024 21:22
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